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Null sec what chance does the little guy have

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Author
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#81 - 2014-02-12 19:16:39 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

...
How do you defend against people who can grind through several hundred systems in 72 hours?

Hit them behind their lines while they are doing it? If they launch an offensive without leaving enough active members in reserve behind them they risk getting shot in the back. Actual warefare type stuff?
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#82 - 2014-02-12 19:21:11 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

...
It gives you time to summon your guys so that you can muster up a proper fight. When otherwise it just comes down to numbers and timezones. And that's not a fun fight, I can tell you. That crap made me quit eve for a couple of years, it was genuinely that bad.

It would just be a WoW battleground writ large. And nullsec deserves more than to just be a PvP arena. There has to be incentive to build and grow, not just to conquer and burn.

Please note, I am not denying that there is an issue right now. There is, there really freaking is. But it's not something a "just take away XYZ" style solution can solve.

A reasoned comment. I just have trouble digesting the break-with-reality that are re-enforce timers, and their side effect of allowing groups to project more power than they really have. It also protects them from attacks to their rear while they are out on an offensive.

I too don't have all the answers, but something about the whole 're enforce' timer and its neutering real black-ops behind enemy lines strikes is troubling to me.

For example, if a large alliance went on an offensive to take forward systems, their enemies could feasibly jump in behind them and take undefended systems to their rear. If that is they didn't retain a security force in the rear, etc.

Those tactics I get. Re-enforcement timers skew that?
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#83 - 2014-02-12 19:24:33 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

...
How do you defend against people who can grind through several hundred systems in 72 hours?

Hit them behind their lines while they are doing it? If they launch an offensive without leaving enough active members in reserve behind them they risk getting shot in the back. Actual warefare type stuff?


In real life the lines mean something. In EVE "behind the lines" is Jita.

It's not like their are factories and lines of communication and stuff anyone actually cares about BEHIND the huge blob that is destroying everyhting in site lol.
ISD LackOfFaith
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#84 - 2014-02-12 19:24:43 UTC
Quote:
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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#85 - 2014-02-12 19:25:28 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

...
How do you defend against people who can grind through several hundred systems in 72 hours?

Hit them behind their lines while they are doing it? If they launch an offensive without leaving enough active members in reserve behind them they risk getting shot in the back. Actual warefare type stuff?


How do you fight a war when all of your assets are trapped in stations you no longer haveaccess to.

Your idea would make it impossible to base in null sov space.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#86 - 2014-02-12 19:29:29 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

...
How do you defend against people who can grind through several hundred systems in 72 hours?

Hit them behind their lines while they are doing it? If they launch an offensive without leaving enough active members in reserve behind them they risk getting shot in the back. Actual warefare type stuff?

We can do both, dude.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#87 - 2014-02-12 19:30:56 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

...
How do you defend against people who can grind through several hundred systems in 72 hours?

Hit them behind their lines while they are doing it? If they launch an offensive without leaving enough active members in reserve behind them they risk getting shot in the back. Actual warefare type stuff?


In real life the lines mean something. In EVE "behind the lines" is Jita.

It's not like their are factories and lines of communication and stuff anyone actually cares about BEHIND the huge blob that is destroying everyhting in site lol.


Basically this. The existence of Jump Drives means that there is no "behind the lines" as far as actual large scale warfare is concerned.

And, historically, in a lot of warfare, this is the truth of the matter. Unless one side has an unmatchable mobility advantage over another, this whole behind the lines maneuvering style stuff was merely jockeying for position to see who could get the most advantageous place to fight.

A great example of this kind of warfare is the American Civil War, but the Napoleonic Wars are also a good part of it. Now that was a sov grind.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#88 - 2014-02-12 19:32:16 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

That's a case of not remembering why a thing exists in the 1st place. Ref timers are important because they from a break on the power of sizable groups to dominate everything by pure weight of numbers overnight. The provide a framework for conflicts (ie, we know this timer is up at this time, so we will form up for it).

The wars you mentioned weren't games, they were real and people didn't have a choice. In a game where people have a choice it just doesn't work and removing something put in place to correct serious problems of the past is begging for unintended consequences.

Ref timers are like gates (gates suck but without something like gates it would be way to easy to avoid fights given EVE game mechanics), a necessary evil that prevents worse results.

Still not buying it. I think a mechanism where all alliances asserting SOV would need to do so 24x7 on their 'core' systems, before expanding outward to claim outlying systems. Today you have large blocs that assert wider dominance because re-enforce timers allow them to reposition forces beyond what they could 'really' have in reserve to defend 'home' systems, ostensibly from smaller alliances who would black ops in behind their lines and zap key assets.

Its a shame really, the whole notion of ongoing defense and proper expansion is messed up by re-enforce timers, and smaller alliances cannot really 'slip behind enemy lines' to wreak havoc, etc.


How do you defend against people who can grind through several hundred systems in 72 hours?


You can't. Without timers all I would have to do is wait until the majority of your coalition is sleeping, then form up mine and pound the crap out of everything I could in your space. Then when you wake up and i'm sleeping you'd have to do it again. It would not dive conflict, all it would do is waste isk.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#89 - 2014-02-12 19:34:01 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Not really, no. Siphons were added as a means of ninja:ing a bit of income, not as a warfare mechanism (since it doesn't particularly work for that purpose). For guerilla warfare in particular, they're pretty much completely useless.


Now I have heard it all.

Drastically reducing the income generated by a moon or even turning it off outright isn't a form of warfare?

Roll

Tippia, please.



Now now you have to understand Tippiaism. Lol

Tippia wrote:
Nullsec was horrid in those days because if you tried to cram more than a 100 people into a system, it fell over and died. These days, actual large-scale fights can be had and as a result, you need more people not to lose everything..


Translation: All hail the blob! Alllll are welcome! Step into the blooooooob!


Quote:
Why? I mean, yes, sov should have been addressed three years ago and it's a bit silly that it has been left alone for so long, but CCP has been distracted by various irrelevancies so what can you do? And that's more that the mechanics are an embarrassment than null itself.


Translation: Anything that CCP does that does not involve blobs, nullsec, and what Tippia likes, is "irrelevant".


Quote:
…if by two you mean four, which is much the same as it has always been. Well, unless you mean actual alliances, in which case there are dozens, which is much the same as it has always been.


And here we have Tippia math. Do not use this on critical systems, such as trying to determine how much a jet plane needs to cross an ocean for example.


P


Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#90 - 2014-02-12 19:39:03 UTC
Herzog, for all your crying about "the blob", you have offered no actual solutions.

If numbers are not to be a deciding factor in warfare, what is?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
Ronins
#91 - 2014-02-12 19:41:56 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
So is sov broken or is sov fine? I can't keep up....


Both, and neither.


Seems like a tricky one.....
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#92 - 2014-02-12 19:43:01 UTC
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
So is sov broken or is sov fine? I can't keep up....


Both, and neither.


Seems like a tricky one.....


Which would be why it hasn't been fixed yet.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#93 - 2014-02-12 19:44:20 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Tippia wrote:
So: either they're useful as warfare tools and massively used, contrary to what you're claiming, or they're useless as warfare tools and not used, again contrary to what you're claiming. Your notion that they're both effective and unused is nonsensical.


Lead bullets are effective and unused, because people agreed to not use them.

Parties in war often make handshake deals with things that mutually hurt both sides. In this case, they agreed to not siphon each other.


Ha ha, no, that's not why lead bullets are going away.

They're going away because of pressure to keep ammunition out of the hands of civilians(because if they failed with the administration's gun control act, they are going after ammo unofficially instead), with a sub consequence of making hand loading much harder now too, since the available avenues of copper are much, much less than that of lead.

Source: Avid shooter, owns more guns than I have fingers and toes.



If "they" knew how much lead gets salvaged from shooting ranges (I have pulled TONS of it out of the ground myself) and how much the civilian population has in reserve, the EPA greeniacs would crap their skulls out.


It'll take 50 years for the lead to run out and that's IF everybody makes bump-firing the norm too. And copper-plating lead bullets it very easy too (for Glocks).


Also it's a comparable proof that making a resource FINITE in Eve will not have the effect that anybody thinks it will have. Imagine if every titan wreck yielded a weight in alloys comparable to a percentage of the wreck? Where you have big blob fights you'd have secondary fights for the salvage.





Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#94 - 2014-02-12 19:47:03 UTC
Quote:
If "they" knew how much lead gets salvaged from shooting ranges (I have pulled TONS of it out of the ground myself) and how much the civilian population has in reserve, the EPA greeniacs would crap their skulls out.


It'll take 50 years for the lead to run out and that's IF everybody makes bump-firing the norm too. And copper-plating lead bullets it very easy too (for Glocks).


Yeah, I have a lot saved up myself. Ate some crow a while back and did brass pickup at the local range to get spare casings, too. But this last couple months everyone is policing their own brass, which sucks.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#95 - 2014-02-12 19:51:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Herzog, for all your crying about "the blob", you have offered no actual solutions.

If numbers are not to be a deciding factor in warfare, what is?


By this logic I propose that all battle be simplified to the following:

Whoever gets the most Rifters in a system first, wins.

Roll

To be honest in terms of sov warfare it probably wouldn't change much.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#96 - 2014-02-12 19:53:15 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Herzog, for all your crying about "the blob", you have offered no actual solutions.

If numbers are not to be a deciding factor in warfare, what is?


By this logic I propose that all battle be simplified to the following:

Whoever gets the most Rifters in a system first, wins.

Roll

To be honest in terms of sov warfare it probably wouldn't change much.


Again, that's not a solution.

That's just you saying "nerf having friends".

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#97 - 2014-02-12 19:54:13 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Herzog, for all your crying about "the blob", you have offered no actual solutions.

If numbers are not to be a deciding factor in warfare, what is?


By this logic I propose that all battle be simplified to the following:

Whoever gets the most Rifters in a system first, wins.

Roll

To be honest in terms of sov warfare it probably wouldn't change much.


Again, that's not a solution.

That's just you saying "nerf having friends".


Shocked

Wouldn't what I proposed buff having friends?

If you have more friends in Rifters, you win.

Tactical depth at its finest.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#98 - 2014-02-12 19:54:16 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Herzog, for all your crying about "the blob", you have offered no actual solutions.

If numbers are not to be a deciding factor in warfare, what is?



I don't cry about blobs. I simply point out that the "way things are" is what makes blobs possible and rather than trying to arbitrarily stop blobs with wonky mechanics, fix the problem at the source.

There's a reason why our oceans are not clogged up with tens of thousands of aircraft carriers. There's a reason why, in order to build the F-15, the USA has to set up front companies to get the titanium from Russia (during the cold war) because they had more of it.

What I "cry" about is the results of infinite resources and the misplaced ePeenery over it. Make the resources finite, such that if an organization wants to blob blob blob they will have to mine their space dry to do it, then they have to take that risk. If people want to "meta" their worth or self esteem with their in-game nullsec accomplishments, then it should be around the very real aspect of running out of resources.

(highsec should have run out of rocks and ice by now too, BTW).


It's not like resources dry up forever (like the lead), they just get harder to find. Think of the oil industry as an example. From small drills in Texas, to shale oil, sideways drilling in the ocean, and having to go to the most hostile places to get it.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#99 - 2014-02-12 19:56:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Translation: All hail the blob! Alllll are welcome! Step into the blooooooob!

Translation: Anything that CCP does that does not involve blobs, nullsec, and what Tippia likes, is "irrelevant".
Interesting strawman you've got there. Do you have an actual argument to offer, rather than incoherent and fallacious nonsense?

Quote:
And here we have Tippia math.
Yup. It's called “actually counting rather than making things up whole cloth”. It's very useful in every situation.

Quote:
I don't cry about blobs.
…aside from in the parts quoted.
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#100 - 2014-02-12 20:02:49 UTC
Jump-drives and force projection means that there is no "behind the line", there are no "far-away places".

Because of jump-drives, pod-jumping, clone-jumping and bridges of all kinds, the universe is very small.

This is part of why the little guy can't do anything.

Then there is the sov system. Millions of HPs to grind, mails telling the owners what's going on etc.

There is no suprise, no stealth. You can't stealthly attack any sov structure nor any POSes because the owners will receive a mail instantly.

There is no guerilla, because in EVE, the entire US army moves as fast and as effectively as a BlackHawk with an elite SEAL squad.

There is no "small objective", because all structures have millions of HP and there is no possiblity for a suprise attack because you need to tell everyone what you're doing by anchoring and onlining SBUs.

This explains force projection issues pretty well

Let's see what's currently happening in nullsec. CFC vs N3. Won't talk about Proviblock because well, they're kinda irrelevent in the big picture.

CFC bitchslapped N3. What's going to happen now ? What is stopping the CFC from capturing N3's territory ? Nothing. Nothing in this game but DBRB's boring stories and Vily's cocaine-fueled welps can stop the CFC from capturing anything they want, anywhere.

Alright, let's say something happens. CFC captures N3 territory and resets Russians. Russians split in two. Alright, great, that's 4 coalitions !

No, look again. Russians will eventually fight eachother for no meaningful ingame ressource or anything, just an ego fight or a "I don't like you" kind of thing. Alright.

The CFC won't ever lose territory anywhere because of force projection.

Proviblock will probably stay in Providence until the CFC or the Russians decide that it's enough and they want that place.

Is this what we call "Not stagnant" ?

Map from 2007

Map from 2014

If you remove the usual chokepoint fights from 2007, there were 5 warzones. Yes, FIVE.

Now come 2014, the game has grown a lot, the playerbase has grown a lot too. How many warzones ?

One. Proviblock was told to sit in a corner by the CFC because they dared put up some SBUs in some place the CFC isn't even using or are remotely interested in.

Yes, THIS, IS CALLED "STAGNATION".