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ESS Discussion Thread

First post First post
Author
ElSuerte Diego
Los Perros Hermanos
#101 - 2014-01-16 05:41:10 UTC
When I first heard about this structure I thought it was going to be a tool for bottom up alliance income.


Honestly though, given the way things usually go in Null, I suspect that this will end up being more of a 5% boost than a nerf. Just park your booster alt on it while you rat if you're that worried.
Matokin Lemant
#102 - 2014-01-16 05:47:47 UTC
I think they have the right idea but are deploying it wrong the EES needs to be implement the same way it is now but for LP in faction warfare as suggested in this thread

If you (CCP) put the module in as it is currently designed your going to have another Incarna on your hands and "we" all know how that turned out dont we...you even referenced it at fan fest last year.

Now for the love of god please listen to what your player base is saying.
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#103 - 2014-01-16 05:51:47 UTC  |  Edited by: SmilingVagrant
Joan Greywind wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
oh wow I think I got my pubbies mixed up, sorry you all look the same to me



Now that means you are definitely winning the argument.

Goon tears best tears.


Actually I won the argument when I said "Risk Vs Reward" everything past that has been low level fluff, random trolling, shitposting and generally carrying on the proud goon tradition of never not post.

Risk Vs Reward is broken in null right now, and we still have a top down income stream which is relatively unhealthy. It treats the governmental body as the producer of income which then has to dribble down to the line member. It actually works properly in WH space where taxation on member income is what drives alliance or corporation level assets and wallets.

Top down economics encourages expansionism into mega coaltions (CFC/NL-PL block) because by simply owning more space you are able to increase the coalition wallet be it via moon goo (The last meta) or renter (the current meta) which means more isk which means more power. If you turn the tables and do a bottom up method of funding what you have is individual pilots are more wealthy but the coalition itself as an entity isn't as "In charge" of the isk stockpiles so much. No amount of banding together and adding more space to your collective umbrella will really change how much isk you have as a group entity because all of your isk is ultimately coming from the people paying the ratting/refining/production taxes.

Anything yanking isk hamfistedly out of the hands of the individual pilot in nullsec is a relatively bad thing. It encourages us to not "live" here. I mean we'd still fight to keep it because top down economics encourages us to do so (See I get reimbursed the cost of many of the ships I fly should I be blown up) but we can easily make personal isk elsewhere and just return for the mechanics and fights that we love in null.

There are a ton of ways to deal with the isk faucet problem. This is a really bad one that will not have the intended effect. Instead of ratting for 19 hours people will just rat for 20, and ESS's will be destroyed on sight by any self respecting nullsec alliance for no other reason than dealing with the internal drama wouldn't be worth it. A better fix would involve splitting rat bounties into half bounty half LP payout.

There that's my honest post on the ESS, the economics of , rather than just having fun on a forum. Nerds.

EDIT: I'll throw out another edit.

No ratter who knows math is going to deploy an item that allows a relatively minor increase in ratting ticks but allowing the chance of a theft when the sheer figgity nature of that item makes it a pain in the ass to deal with. The whole idea is a turd. I realize someone's new "Pet" idea is deployables, but it's pretty clear this one hasn't been thought out.

The mobile depot seems to be not well thought out either, but I'll take it and abuse it till someone realizes how crazy it was to implement.
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#104 - 2014-01-16 05:55:11 UTC  |  Edited by: SmilingVagrant
ElSuerte Diego wrote:
When I first heard about this structure I thought it was going to be a tool for bottom up alliance income.


Honestly though, given the way things usually go in Null, I suspect that this will end up being more of a 5% boost than a nerf. Just park your booster alt on it while you rat if you're that worried.


I expect they won't be deployed at all with the exception of the occasional renter owned pocket and or troll drop by black ops gangs looking for a sucker. Internal ratting drama is a pain in the ass that no one wants to deal with ever, and some idiots going to smack steal on accident.

EDIT: It won't be so bad in our space, but I bet providence is going to be a nightmare.
Logical 101
PowerCow Farm
#105 - 2014-01-16 06:04:43 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Risk Vs Reward is broken in null right now

The 0.0 risk has always been dying in a fire. The reward has always been occasionally not dying in a fire.

I fail to see how that has changed.

Man, you guys have really gone soft.

SmilingVagrant wrote:
Top down economics encourages expansionism into mega coalitions

The irony here is overwhelming.

SmilingVagrant wrote:
Anything yanking isk hamfistedly out of the hands of the individual pilot in nullsec is a relatively bad thing.

These structures, along with several other highly anticipated and popular ones, are an attempt to add further functionality and new dynamic elements to 0.0. They don't break your game. They don't kill your pets. They don't shave your head while you're alseep, or rob your bank, or sodomize your livestock.

Your rageposting on the subject is plebeian at best.
Fix Lag
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#106 - 2014-01-16 06:08:18 UTC
Logical 101 I really like your firm grasp of game mechanics and your obvious years of experience running or at least being part of a nullsec group that matters

CCP mostly sucks at their job, but Veritas is a pretty cool dude.

Renegade Heart
Doomheim
#107 - 2014-01-16 06:15:17 UTC
When the MTU came out I didn't see these players crying. Instead, high sec carebears were told to HTFU.

Now CCP come up with something similar for null sec PvE and suddenly it's the end Roll
Jack Morrison
Team Liquid crp.
#108 - 2014-01-16 06:19:32 UTC
ESS - where the implementation is far worse than the idea behind it.
Think it even beats the whole Oddysey expansion, by far. (yea, that bad)

Looking for a group to pew with ? Have a chat with me.

Logical 101
PowerCow Farm
#109 - 2014-01-16 06:24:50 UTC
Fix Lag wrote:
Logical 101

I know, I'm tough to stop talking about, particularly when I make you look like a whiny asshat.
KnowUsByTheDead
Sunlight...Through The Blight.
#110 - 2014-01-16 06:29:50 UTC
I get you are trying to push the deployables, CCP.

Helps on the road to new POSes, and I get that.

Just push deployables that are worth a crap.

That is all.

Cannot wait for STATUE 'SPLOSIONS!!!

Big smileShockedRollPirateTwisted

Once you realize what a joke everything is, being the comedian is the only thing that makes sense.

SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#111 - 2014-01-16 06:33:51 UTC
Logical 101 wrote:

The 0.0 risk has always been dying in a fire. The reward has always been occasionally not dying in a fire.

I fail to see how that has changed.

Man, you guys have really gone soft.


And you are unable to address any points at all with your post. CCP has stated on several times that the more dangerous the space, the greater the rewards for living and surviving in that space should be. This is currently not the way things are layed out. It means they aren't fulfilling their very own design idea.


Logical 101 wrote:

The irony here is overwhelming.


Irony isn't just a word you can throw at the wall and hope it sticks. The fact that we're using these mechanics because it's simply the best way to operate in the current meta doesn't mean they aren't ass backwards and that we can't acknowledge this fact. The assumption that a player can recognize a design decision is wrong while calling for it's change and also using it because it's the best way to survive currently is some kind of impossibility to some of you folks has always confused me. We were the ones that called for the Tech nerf first. Does this mean we refused to mine Tech? Hell no. Take the advantages you can get, but don't pretend they are "balanced". It's called objectivity.

Logical 101 wrote:
These structures, along with several other highly anticipated and popular ones, are an attempt to add further functionality and new dynamic elements to 0.0. They don't break your game. They don't kill your pets. They don't shave your head while you're alseep, or rob your bank, or sodomize your livestock.

Your rageposting on the subject is plebeian at best.



But this doesn't really add functionality. As a functional idea it's a damp squib. No one but a very wet behind the ears nullsec newbie/pet will want to deploy one of these things as the bother far outweighs the reward. I expect most alliances will ban their use simply because the stupid ratting disputes are going to be just one more stack of stupid trivialities that go along with ratting rights drama that already exists between any organized group of sov holding players in nullsec. As a tool for siphoning isk from enemy space (Which would actually be how I would want to use it) it's also a bit of a waste as now I have to deal with tags, which as a marauder of ~Someone Elses Sov~ is a giant pain in the ass as it's one more damn thing I have to squirrel away in an anchored can in a dead end system till I can run my blockade runner through again. I'd rather it be a straight isk payout.

So whats left is just a 5% reduction in ISK payouts which won't really address the issue that this was introduced to help solve in the first place: Faucets and inflation.
trader joes Ichinumi
Doomheim
#112 - 2014-01-16 06:40:00 UTC  |  Edited by: trader joes Ichinumi
Riot Girl wrote:
Batelle wrote:
As for lengthening the payout period, that might be needed, but people should consider that its balanced against the defenders forming up BEFORE the hostiles enter system.

So the ESS will be bait for the untouchable AFK cloakers and other nullsec pests. Sounds like the ESS might be quite useful after all.


People already don't rat when a null cloaker is in system. There is too high a risk he will cyno in a fleet. So the cloaker drops it while the ratter is docking up/switching systems anyway.

Honestly I don't think the ESS will be used much. The only people who might use it are ratting groups who station an alt at it. With six ratters in system, the ESS pays for itself in 30 minutes.
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#113 - 2014-01-16 06:42:38 UTC  |  Edited by: SmilingVagrant
trader joes Ichinumi wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Batelle wrote:
As for lengthening the payout period, that might be needed, but people should consider that its balanced against the defenders forming up BEFORE the hostiles enter system.

So the ESS will be bait for the untouchable AFK cloakers and other nullsec pests. Sounds like the ESS might be quite useful after all.


People already don't rat when a null cloaker is in system. There is too high a risk he will cyno in a fleet. So the cloaker drops it while the ratter is docking up/switching systems anyway.

Honestly I don't think the ESS will be used much. The only people who might use it are ratting groups who station an alt at it. With six ratters in system, the ESS pays for itself in 30 minutes.



You'd be amazed. I caught a guy mining in one groups region capital (With a faction tanked mining ship) who continued to mine despite me talking in local and generally carrying on with the residents.

I think you'll probably see it in renter space where you may have a small six man corporation that is assigned to a single system. But in alliance land things tend to be a little more "Free for all" in terms of ratting rights at the alliance level and you won't see much co-operation between small groups of ratters, most of which are PVP pilots who are only ratting begrudgingly because it's semi convenient to where they have their real fun.

I mean ratting as a main isk generating tool kinda sucks already. I try to avoid it, and when I do partake it's usually just to top off the tank until various other schemes hatch.
Logical 101
PowerCow Farm
#114 - 2014-01-16 06:51:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Logical 101
SmilingVagrant wrote:
And you are unable to address any points at all with your post. CCP has stated on several times that the more dangerous the space, the greater the rewards for living and surviving in that space should be. This is currently not the way things are layed out. It means they aren't fulfilling their very own design idea.

CCP states and plans things all the time. How are you not used to it not happening the way you want it to?

From the Massively article published last year, with regard to depots for example...

Quote:
As the first deployable designed explicitly to screw with existing infrastructure, it represents a shift in the way CCP is thinking about territorial control. Previous expansions have made huge mechanical changes to the sovereignty system and tweaked the bonuses gained by owning space, but small groups haven't really been able to meaningfully interfere with the economic infrastructure of an empire and get something valuable out of it.

By giving players more options to interfere with infrastructure that's not being frequently checked and tended to, CCP will be making it more difficult to hold onto territory that isn't being actively used or patrolled.

How did you not realize the direction this was going?

SmilingVagrant wrote:
Irony isn't just a word you can throw at the wall and hope it sticks.

No, it's a word I use for you, a cog in a vast, hulking, lurching machine that has leveraged every cooperative model in the history of EVE in order to advance itself.

SmilingVagrant wrote:
But this doesn't really add functionality

No, it doesn't. The ESS is clearly a miss, but it is only one of several new structures being deployed that this community are, for the most part, either luke warm or excited about. Not everything that gets added to the game is going to be a success, but crying buckets about how you're being marginalized with a 5% ratting income hit because you refuse to use the structures is akin to sobbing uncontrollably because you stubbed your toe.

Not even. It's a splinter. A very small, insignificant splinter when you consider how EVE players make money.
trader joes Ichinumi
Doomheim
#115 - 2014-01-16 06:54:12 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
trader joes Ichinumi wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Batelle wrote:
As for lengthening the payout period, that might be needed, but people should consider that its balanced against the defenders forming up BEFORE the hostiles enter system.

So the ESS will be bait for the untouchable AFK cloakers and other nullsec pests. Sounds like the ESS might be quite useful after all.


People already don't rat when a null cloaker is in system. There is too high a risk he will cyno in a fleet.


You'd be amazed. I caught a guy mining in one groups region capital (With a faction tanked mining ship) who continued to mine despite me talking in local and generally carrying on with the residents.


Why didn't you fit a cyno and hot drop a fleet on him?

Typically after than happens once or twice people stop ratting.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#116 - 2014-01-16 07:02:25 UTC
Logical 101 wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Risk Vs Reward is broken in null right now

The 0.0 risk has always been dying in a fire. The reward has always been occasionally not dying in a fire.

I fail to see how that has changed.

Man, you guys have really gone soft.



The way it works now. I risk a 200m ship to shoot 60m/hr. I safe logoff without a timer, and its done.

The way it works in the future.

I risk a 200m ship, a 30m structure and 12m per hour isk to make an extra 3mil entirely backloaded into the second hour. and then when its done I gotta go reship to a ceptor to fetch not only the 3m extra I made, but the 24m I risked, and then really I gotta yank the thing up because its 30m in space that is unprotected and easily killed, which means the start and end of any session is top and tailed with yanking and fetching the stupid turd of a thing which is probably going to be close to 2m opportunity cost anyway.

ie for a ratter earning 60m/hr, playing a 2 hour session the device is worth as little as 1 million isk, or 1 battleship rat over current.

SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#117 - 2014-01-16 07:06:10 UTC  |  Edited by: SmilingVagrant
Logical 101 wrote:

No, it doesn't. The ESS is clearly a miss, but it is only one of several new structures being deployed that this community are, for the most part, either luke warm or excited about. Not everything that gets added to the game is going to be a success, but crying buckets about how you're being marginalized with a 5% ratting income hit because you refuse to use the structures is akin to sobbing uncontrollably because you stubbed your toe.

Not even. It's a splinter. A very small, insignificant splinter when you consider how EVE players make money.


So you really have nothing? I mean your main argument here seems to be based around "I don't really like it either, but I'm offended that you don't like it enough to say something". Well ok I guess you can sprint with that and see how far you can get.

This expectation that people are just going to dislike some pointless arbitrary and crappy change, but rather than say something are just going to stew, give random passive aggressive looks and moan quietly into their livejournal while being absolutely sure that the people who are involved in that change never hear it is weird to me.

I mean this would be ironic if I was one of the "NERF HIGHSEC" group within my own organization but the shoe doesn't really fit. I simply believe there should be commiserate rewards to living in more difficult space. It would encourage me to not only fight over that space, but also to hang my hat there, make my money there, produce there etc etc... which would also give a greater opportunity for these infrastructure hitting gangs to have fun as well.

As it stands now I rarely see Goonwaffe sov space. I make my money in other ways because there is no resource in that space that is really worth the effort.

EDIT: For the record I don't really have any "Skin" in the ratting game, because in the last three years I've maybe spent 20 hours ratting, but I have no problem calling an imbalance an imbalance. I don't get why you are so offended at someone calling a bad system bad. I mean one day in my wildest dreams PVE in this game will actually be fun and I'd probably engage in it and not care that the money is bad, but hey we're not there.
Lugalbandak
Lockheart Trading Company
Hardly Competent
#118 - 2014-01-16 07:08:13 UTC
Fix Lag wrote:
Jim Era wrote:
o.O
I've been away for too long, wat is this you speak of.


If you can get past the very poorly written devblog, CCP's cutting nullsec ratter income by a minimum of 5% across the board and attempting to force a really, really, REALLY poorly designed mechanic down peoples' throats. It's so bad neither the defenders or offenders want to use it. That's how wretchedly horrible it is. And the blanket cut with no justification is a load of rotting Icelandic shark shit.


If nobody gonna use it , wy is there a problem null bear?

The police horse is the only animal in the world that haz his male genitals on his back

Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#119 - 2014-01-16 07:09:23 UTC
trader joes Ichinumi wrote:
People already don't rat when a null cloaker is in system.


I was talking about leaving your own AFK cloaky alt on the module.
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#120 - 2014-01-16 07:09:45 UTC
trader joes Ichinumi wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
trader joes Ichinumi wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Batelle wrote:
As for lengthening the payout period, that might be needed, but people should consider that its balanced against the defenders forming up BEFORE the hostiles enter system.

So the ESS will be bait for the untouchable AFK cloakers and other nullsec pests. Sounds like the ESS might be quite useful after all.


People already don't rat when a null cloaker is in system. There is too high a risk he will cyno in a fleet.


You'd be amazed. I caught a guy mining in one groups region capital (With a faction tanked mining ship) who continued to mine despite me talking in local and generally carrying on with the residents.


Why didn't you fit a cyno and hot drop a fleet on him?

Typically after than happens once or twice people stop ratting.


A few of our other guys were right next door camping their jump bridge, I snagged an extra tackle to get his other mining ship and everyone gated over to murder him. Never saw that guy again.