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ESS Discussion Thread

First post First post
Author
ZynnLee Akkori
Perkone
Caldari State
#261 - 2014-01-16 15:12:41 UTC
I don't see the problem. You get your 5% or more back just by visiting the ESS. ISK efficiency is only a mining thing, right? Null is about HTFU shooting-spaceships, right?
Bear
Dave Stark
#262 - 2014-01-16 15:15:04 UTC
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
I don't see the problem. You get your 5% or more back just by visiting the ESS. ISK efficiency is only a mining thing, right? Null is about HTFU shooting-spaceships, right?
Bear


who are you going to shoot when they're all in high sec running missions?
MasterAsher
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#263 - 2014-01-16 15:15:27 UTC
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
I don't see the problem. You get your 5% or more back just by visiting the ESS. ISK efficiency is only a mining thing, right? Null is about HTFU shooting-spaceships, right?
Bear


To be honest i think 99% of null would prefer a 5-10% isk nerf to anoms over how this item is....think about that.
embrel
BamBam Inc.
#264 - 2014-01-16 15:20:09 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Tippia wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
If neither the defenders nor the offenders will use it then whats the problem??

Then it's just a 5% income nerf for nullsec rank and file that completely lacks and reason or purpose.

Seems to me it has its purpose. CCP hired an economist specifically for this reason.....but let me guess I am sure you know more or better than that person......well of course you do, what was I thinking?


good to see that after the financial crisis there are still a few who trust in economists. being one myself, I don't much.

In the regard of the 5% nerf: how do you know what their assumption was regarding how much ESS would be used? CCP might have assumed that ESS will lead to more ISK in the game.
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
#265 - 2014-01-16 15:20:44 UTC
ZOMG A THING I DONT LIKE


I better have a ******* rant

FFS Have an apple, read a book.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann

Niec Mogul
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#266 - 2014-01-16 15:20:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Niec Mogul
MasterAsher wrote:
Niec Mogul wrote:
Here's what will make this thing actually interesting:

Dude undocks to rat somewhere in null, but...what's this? An ESS is deployed? It's not his! He looks at the overview and sees:

* 1.14 AU - Encounter Surveillance System
* 1.14 AU - Mobile Scan Blocker


Uh-oh!! Hmm, he could go ratting anyways, but he's losing 20% of the bounties to someone else. He could warp on over to that ESS and empty it, or blow it up...but...that pesky scan blocker. There could be a pile of baddies in there! Oh no!

What to do, what to do. Call in 100 buddies? Send a cloaky scout? **** pants and dock up? Kiss 20% of the bounties goodbye? Hmm, lots of options.

Should be fun to watch. This thread is already pretty entertaining!


Scan blocker doesnt work around the ess...

Also local....if there is a non blue who the hell will rat?


The blog says the scan blocker won't hide the ESS, but that's the point; you'd see both, but not what's nearby.

It doesn't counter local, as you've noted, but I wouldn't put it past anyone to start just ripping off their bluebloc neighbors. I mean ****, why not? Anyone that's ever said "Awox hahaha!" should have no problem with this idea.
Notorious Fellon
#267 - 2014-01-16 15:25:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Notorious Fellon
Niec Mogul wrote:
MasterAsher wrote:
Niec Mogul wrote:
Here's what will make this thing actually interesting:

Dude undocks to rat somewhere in null, but...what's this? An ESS is deployed? It's not his! He looks at the overview and sees:

* 1.14 AU - Encounter Surveillance System
* 1.14 AU - Mobile Scan Blocker


Uh-oh!! Hmm, he could go ratting anyways, but he's losing 20% of the bounties to someone else. He could warp on over to that ESS and empty it, or blow it up...but...that pesky scan blocker. There could be a pile of baddies in there! Oh no!

What to do, what to do. Call in 100 buddies? Send a cloaky scout? **** pants and dock up? Kiss 20% of the bounties goodbye? Hmm, lots of options.

Should be fun to watch. This thread is already pretty entertaining!


Scan blocker doesnt work around the ess...

Also local....if there is a non blue who the hell will rat?


The blog says the scan blocker won't hide the ESS, but that's the point; you'd see both, but not what's nearby.

It doesn't counter local, as you've noted, but I wouldn't put it past anyone to start just ripping off their bluebloc neighbors. I mean ****, why not? Anyone that's ever said "Awox hahaha!" should have no problem with this idea.


Said people would soon find themselves unable to dock where the rest of their ships are.

It is possible to get kicked from an alliance for less offense. Said tactics only work on noob corps who don't research potential recruits.

Crime, it is not a "career", it is a lifestyle.

Silent Rambo
Orion Positronics
#268 - 2014-01-16 15:30:04 UTC
With all the bitter vet whining that is happening, I haven't really heard any strong arguments against it other then "it sucks, and its bad, and I hate it" or "wahhh a whole 5% nerf, ill only make 95 mil when I could have made 100mil".

The only real issue I've heard is there isn't enough incentive to use this thing. Pretty simple fix, Id say bump it up to a 10% nerf (90% isk based on now) and give a 20% bonus to ratting (120% based on now) with this thing around. Drives conflict, enables PvP, and gives people more of an incentive to work together. If you cant work together towards ISK making goals then just gtfo of EvE.

You really think someone would do that? Just log into EvE and tell lies?

Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#269 - 2014-01-16 15:35:30 UTC
Notorious Fellon wrote:
Niec Mogul wrote:
MasterAsher wrote:
Niec Mogul wrote:
Here's what will make this thing actually interesting:

Dude undocks to rat somewhere in null, but...what's this? An ESS is deployed? It's not his! He looks at the overview and sees:

* 1.14 AU - Encounter Surveillance System
* 1.14 AU - Mobile Scan Blocker


Uh-oh!! Hmm, he could go ratting anyways, but he's losing 20% of the bounties to someone else. He could warp on over to that ESS and empty it, or blow it up...but...that pesky scan blocker. There could be a pile of baddies in there! Oh no!

What to do, what to do. Call in 100 buddies? Send a cloaky scout? **** pants and dock up? Kiss 20% of the bounties goodbye? Hmm, lots of options.

Should be fun to watch. This thread is already pretty entertaining!


Scan blocker doesnt work around the ess...

Also local....if there is a non blue who the hell will rat?


The blog says the scan blocker won't hide the ESS, but that's the point; you'd see both, but not what's nearby.

It doesn't counter local, as you've noted, but I wouldn't put it past anyone to start just ripping off their bluebloc neighbors. I mean ****, why not? Anyone that's ever said "Awox hahaha!" should have no problem with this idea.


Said people would soon find themselves unable to dock where the rest of their ships are.

It is possible to get kicked from an alliance for less offense. Said tactics only work on noob corps who don't research potential recruits.


Except you can just do it with an anonymous alt?

That's pretty much the status quo, already in nullsec. Who do you think uses most siphon units? Alts stealing from their own alliance mates moons because they know when they aren't around Blink
Good Posting
Doomheim
#270 - 2014-01-16 15:39:03 UTC
Tippia wrote:
A deployable that makes you gamble 20% of your bounties for 0–5% gain, assuming no-one else steals them first. And to invent a reason for it to exist, they've decided to make a flat reduction of all bounties by 5% so there can be a “problem” for this abortion to “solve”.


All right, thanks for the info. Now i understand the complaints.

What i don't understand is why put something like this in the game. I mean, really... why? Does this improve the gameplay? How? Bored at the office are we, ccp?

Well, back to my things.

o/
Joan Greywind
The Lazy Crabs
#271 - 2014-01-16 15:39:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Joan Greywind
embrel wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Tippia wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
If neither the defenders nor the offenders will use it then whats the problem??

Then it's just a 5% income nerf for nullsec rank and file that completely lacks and reason or purpose.

Seems to me it has its purpose. CCP hired an economist specifically for this reason.....but let me guess I am sure you know more or better than that person......well of course you do, what was I thinking?


good to see that after the financial crisis there are still a few who trust in economists. being one myself, I don't much.

In the regard of the 5% nerf: how do you know what their assumption was regarding how much ESS would be used? CCP might have assumed that ESS will lead to more ISK in the game.


Yes because if there is a plague, it's the doctors to blame, cool logic. And we all know if some doctors **** some **** up, then we never trust all the the doctors forever.

Crisis happen, experts make mistakes, sometimes big one, doesn't mean the average joe is more knowledgeable now. And if you are an economist, you'd know that the crisis was caused by politicians and financial salesman that think they know jack **** about economics, and average joes that think they can beat the market. Real economist were warning about the highly leveraged economy and housing bubble before it happened (not all, but a significant number). People just didn't listen.

The reason of the ESS was never stated to be about "more isk", so stop making **** up. The reason behind it is to create tools that incentivise combat. Maybe it is less isk maybe it isn't, but you can bet on one thing, more explosions.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#272 - 2014-01-16 15:41:07 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
How about we experiment with this ESS first in Highsec. Then if its such a great idea and not just a useless thing no one will put up we can try it in nullsec.


because the purpose of this whole change as stated by CCP Somiwhatever is to reduce nullsec ratting bounties as they have become some sort of out-of-control ISK faucet.

i doubt highsec rats are much of an isk faucet as their bounties suck.


Oh if that's the case we're already in highsec on our alts running l4s and doing incursions. So that means if they want to nerf nullsec income the ESS needs to be exclusively a highsec thing. It works perfectly that way.



incursions and l4's dont generate a ton of isk. they generate a ton of loyalty points. which can be converted into an income, but they aren't pure isk faucets - or even close. they mostly generate wealth that is sold on the market.

ratting is basically a pure isk faucet.

note i'm not defending the ESS. i think it's a terrible idea - just pointing out some facts.


That doesn't matter, we are still in highsec doing those things so that means if they want to nerf our income then highsec is where these things need to be not nullsec.

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Jake Warbird
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#273 - 2014-01-16 15:41:18 UTC
This is what happens when they pick ideas from the 'one-line bad ideas' thread.
embrel
BamBam Inc.
#274 - 2014-01-16 15:47:11 UTC
Joan Greywind wrote:

Crisis happen, experts make mistakes, sometimes big one, doesn't mean the average joe is more knowledgeable now. And if you are an economist, you'd know that the crisis was caused by politicians and financial salesman that think they know jack **** about economics, and average joes that think they can beat the market. Real economist were warning about the highly leveraged economy and housing bubble before it happened (not all, but a significant number). People just didn't listen.

The reason of the ESS was never stated to be about "more isk", so stop making **** up. The reason behind it is to create tools that incentivise combat. Maybe it is less isk maybe it isn't, but you can bet on one thing, more explosions.


Of course they didn't create it. However, I'm not sure about whether the "real economists" warned out of the right reasons. There are always some calling "Doom's coming". And when it comes, some were right.

but, let's not hijack the thread.

Was it then stated that ESS aims at reducing ISK? Didn't read it. Guess it was aimed at increasing pew and they thought that ISK would be roughly balanced otherwise they could adapt it later.
CCP Falcon
#275 - 2014-01-16 15:47:35 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Falcon
It's quite clear that there are very mixed opinions on this, and we'll be looking to gather the feedback from this thread and hand it over to game design.

That said, if people are annoyed, it's still not justification for taking a dump all over the forum rules. Make sure that your feedback is presented in a calm and concise manner.

Cheers.

Smile

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3

Lipbite
Express Hauler
#276 - 2014-01-16 15:53:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Lipbite
It's pretty clear CCP want to sell more GTCs and to do so they've decided to reduce players' profits and increase spendings. Thus sudden 100% increase in material cost of battleships + now it is decrease in income of ratters. I will not be surprised if we'll see increase in material cost of cruisers, then frigates + decrease in income from missions / FW / incursions / etc.

There is exactly nothing to discuss about ESS (to implement them or not?) - we can only discuss how slow/fast CCP want to boil a frog (subscribers) to make us pay more for exactly the same game as we had yesterday.
Money Makin Mitch
Paid in Full
#277 - 2014-01-16 16:04:29 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
It's quite clear that there are very mixed opinions on this, and we'll be looking to gather the feedback from this thread and hand it over to game design.

That said, if people are annoyed, it's still not justification for taking a dump all over the forum rules. Make sure that your feedback is presented in a calm and concise manner.

Cheers.

Smile

the opinions don't seem to be very mixed to me... seems almost everyone hates it. Twisted we're ridiculing it for a reason. Big smile

welp, back to the drawing board
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
#278 - 2014-01-16 16:05:37 UTC
Lipbite wrote:
It's pretty clear CCP want to sell more GTCs


This just in: Business Desires To Sell More Product, Member Of Public : "This is A Disgrace and directly related to my sads"

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann

Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#279 - 2014-01-16 16:06:41 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
It's quite clear that there are very mixed opinions on this, and we'll be looking to gather the feedback from this thread and hand it over to game design.

That said, if people are annoyed, it's still not justification for taking a dump all over the forum rules. Make sure that your feedback is presented in a calm and concise manner.

Cheers.

Smile


I hope you are also planning on gathering feedback from the 58-page threadnaught. I have questions I'm going to cross-post here, in the hope they get noticed and maybe (pie in the sky, I know) answered.


Eram Fidard wrote:
Something that I am still quite curious about (and has not been answered yet):

Was the ESS the feature referred to in the CSM8 Summer Summit Minutes?

Soniclover moved on to discuss an additional disruption feature. This feature was
shelved due to CCP and CSM concerns expressed during the summit, until a more
satisfactory solution could be found.


If yes, what changes were made that are considered to be "a more satisfactory solution"? What concerns were expressed? How and why did this feature make it to singularity (and a dev blog) without further review?

If no, (I am trying really, really hard to write this post so it cannot possibly be construed as "inflammatory") did you discuss the ESS at the CSM8 Summer Summit? What feature was "shelved due to CCP and CSM concerns"? If the feature shelved was not the ESS, just how bad of an idea was it, to get shelved, while such a fundamentally flawed concept (the ESS) managed to "pass muster"?

Thank you in advance for answering any of these questions you can, SoniClover. I look forward to seeing if any other DEVs chime in, as well. This thread has turned into "SoniClover vs. EVE".

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.

Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
#280 - 2014-01-16 16:06:44 UTC
Money Makin Mitch wrote:
seems almost everyone hates it.


Hence mixed, you frickin gump-slat

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann