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ESS Discussion Thread

First post First post
Author
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#541 - 2014-01-17 15:23:33 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Lugalbandak wrote:
Barry Kring wrote:
I honestly think the idea is perfect for highsec. Make the bubble a bit bigger and everything inside it is fair game, no concord zone. Null has maybe 2-3 ratters per system at best, in hs you can multiply that by 10 meaning significant money worth fighting for.


im still figuring out wy its only for 0.0, low sec = low sec but in high it could be a nice conflict driver maybe, maybe ccp respons soon.

Perhaps it's due to alliances docking up the moment anything not blue enters system. The combination of blues, intel channels and local creates a system so safe that it's virtually impossible to die in non-consensual PvP.

Now you can still have that immunity to non-consentual PvP but it'll cost you 25% of rat bounties to utilise it if you're so lazy you don't put a cloakie disposable alt next to your ESS to grab the funds.


You mean the cloaky disposable alt that could be ratting instead?
There is no such thing.

What will happen is instead of doing this, people will simply use those 2 toons to run missions and hover up loot with that send toon in a noctis for more isk than he would have made ratting with one toon. What you talk about is never practical.

We're talking about what people actually do, not what you think they should.

Did you forget who you're talking with? xD

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE

Dave Stark
#542 - 2014-01-17 15:26:56 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Andski wrote:
E6o5 wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Yonis Zanjoahir wrote:
A bunch of angry botters itt lmao.

+1 for ESS.


Security presentation showed that most of the botting occurs in highsec and over half of all botting occurs in caldari highsec.


So you know where to go with your bots


He's right, though. Hiseccers are the biggest culprits when it comes to botting.

You mean the goons with their alts in hi-sec? Yea your right, that why the front line goon has an average of 8 accounts.


source?
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#543 - 2014-01-17 15:48:33 UTC  |  Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Dave Stark wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
You mean the goons with their alts in hi-sec? Yea your right, that why the front line goon has an average of 8 accounts.


source?

I think that was a tongue-in-cheek comment. I've seen plenty of null sec players claim that 'many' of them have alts in hi sec. So I guess that would be the source. Unless, of course, these claims are bullshit. <== tongue-in-cheek as well P.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#544 - 2014-01-17 15:49:58 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
E-2C wrote:
You mean the goons with their alts in hi-sec? Yea your right, that why the front line goon has an average of 8 accounts.


source?

I think that was a tongue-in-cheek comment. I've seen plenty of null sec players claim that 'many' of them have alts in hi sec. So I guess that would be the source. Unless, of course, these claims are bullshit. <== tongue-in-cheek as well P.


Hell, I have 4. It's hardly unusual.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#545 - 2014-01-17 15:52:59 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
You mean the goons with their alts in hi-sec? Yea your right, that why the front line goon has an average of 8 accounts.


source?

I think that was a tongue-in-cheek comment. I've seen plenty of null sec players claim that 'many' of them have alts in hi sec. So I guess that would be the source. Unless, of course, these claims are bullshit. <== tongue-in-cheek as well P.

As many as all the carebears, who have powerfull friends in nullsec alliances that will come to hunt and kill us? XD

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE

Faenir Antollare
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#546 - 2014-01-17 16:04:26 UTC
After reading through the thread,..and I must confess that my eyes are a bleeding, I would respectively request that the implementation of such modules is suspended until, at least, a more thorough and readily acceptable concept can be formulated.

RiP BooBoo 26/7/1971 - 23/7/2014 My Lady My Love My Life My Wife

Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#547 - 2014-01-17 16:07:39 UTC
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
As many as all the carebears, who have powerfull friends in nullsec alliances that will come to hunt and kill us? XD


Run for you lives!!!!

Also Jeff Bidermaier!!!

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!

Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#548 - 2014-01-17 16:14:24 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
As many as all the carebears, who have powerfull friends in nullsec alliances that will come to hunt and kill us? XD


Run for you lives!!!!

Also Jeff Bidermaier!!!
Hahaha Jeff! Almost forgot him! xD

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE

Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#549 - 2014-01-17 16:39:12 UTC
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
As many as all the carebears, who have powerfull friends in nullsec alliances that will come to hunt and kill us? XD


Run for you lives!!!!

Also Jeff Bidermaier!!!
Hahaha Jeff! Almost forgot him! xD


The best part of that whole thing for me was that he put it in his Bio. Lol

Jeff is a ******* rock star!!!

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!

E-2C Hawkeye
State War Academy
Caldari State
#550 - 2014-01-17 16:54:15 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
You mean the goons with their alts in hi-sec? Yea your right, that why the front line goon has an average of 8 accounts.


source?

I think that was a tongue-in-cheek comment. I've seen plenty of null sec players claim that 'many' of them have alts in hi sec. So I guess that would be the source. Unless, of course, these claims are bullshit. <== tongue-in-cheek as well P.

Mittani.com....but wear the tin foil hat before you go Big smile
Dave Stark
#551 - 2014-01-17 17:12:41 UTC
i just thought 8 sounded a bit low. vOv
Yokai Mitsuhide
Doomheim
#552 - 2014-01-17 18:05:23 UTC
Money Makin Mitch wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
It's quite clear that there are very mixed opinions on this, and we'll be looking to gather the feedback from this thread and hand it over to game design.

That said, if people are annoyed, it's still not justification for taking a dump all over the forum rules. Make sure that your feedback is presented in a calm and concise manner.

Cheers.

Smile

the opinions don't seem to be very mixed to me... seems almost everyone hates it. Twisted we're ridiculing it for a reason. Big smile

welp, back to the drawing board


I wouldn't say everyone hates it...just the nullsec children who think everything needs to be in their favor.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#553 - 2014-01-17 18:08:20 UTC
Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:
Money Makin Mitch wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
It's quite clear that there are very mixed opinions on this, and we'll be looking to gather the feedback from this thread and hand it over to game design.

That said, if people are annoyed, it's still not justification for taking a dump all over the forum rules. Make sure that your feedback is presented in a calm and concise manner.

Cheers.

Smile

the opinions don't seem to be very mixed to me... seems almost everyone hates it. Twisted we're ridiculing it for a reason. Big smile

welp, back to the drawing board


I wouldn't say everyone hates it...just the nullsec children who think everything needs to be in their favor.


<---- Doesn't live in Nullsec.

<----Thinks ESS is dumb.

<----Likes breakfast food.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!

Fix Sov
#554 - 2014-01-17 18:20:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Fix Sov
CCP Falcon wrote:
It's quite clear that there are very mixed opinions on this, and we'll be looking to gather the feedback from this thread and hand it over to game design.

That said, if people are annoyed, it's still not justification for taking a dump all over the forum rules. Make sure that your feedback is presented in a calm and concise manner.

Cheers.

Smile

Clear and concise feedback: the premises behind the ESS is deeply flawed. There are absolutely no incentives that I can see for deploying this module in a system I would rat in (not that I'm going to rat, **** ratting forever), because the disadvantage to not deploying it is overshadowed by the amount of time and energy you have to spend guarding the ESS and making sure the bounties etc are shared to the right people and not stolen by some neutral, red or blue guy.

If you absolutely want to make a farms and fields style module, think of something which'll make people actually want to deploy it, such as a proper nerf to bounties if it's inactive like, say, 25-50% or whatever, which is reversed (or mostly reversed if you feel like nullsec is spewing forth too much ISK, but in that case you should probably be upfront about it and just say that there's too much isk coming into the economy so we're going to reduce payouts by x%), make it hackable/incappable by a smallish gang, and f.ex make it so a percentage of the un-nerfed bounties is sent to everyone who was in on hacking/reinforcing it. And it'll stay that way until someone fixes it by reverse-enginnering/hacking/repping it.

That way the system owner has an incentive to deploy it (because it actually matters), he doesn't have to dedicate one or more alts to just watching the structure in case some blue idiot comes derping along and presses the steal everything button, he has an incentive (albeit probably not enough, but them's the breaks) to actually defend it, and he'll have to do something to fix the situation if someone does come around and muck about with the module.

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.

E-2C Hawkeye
State War Academy
Caldari State
#555 - 2014-01-17 18:32:25 UTC
Jon Feist wrote:
For every ESS module that is seen in Nullsec, a miner will be ganked.

You should start now and get ahead to avoid the rush.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#556 - 2014-01-17 18:42:49 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Jon Feist wrote:
For every ESS module that is seen in Nullsec, a miner will be ganked.

You should start now and get ahead to avoid the rush.


No miners will die over this. Thats how terrible this idea is.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#557 - 2014-01-17 19:21:48 UTC
If nullsec goes to highsec to kill everybody out of revenge for the ESS, then Harry Forever will win VFK and the goons will be homeless.

Lol

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#558 - 2014-01-17 19:24:22 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
If nullsec goes to highsec to kill everybody out of revenge for the ESS, then Harry Forever will win VFK and the goons will be homeless.

Lol



There is only one Harry Forever and we have him.
ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#559 - 2014-01-17 21:00:56 UTC
Real life link post removed.

ISD Tyrozan

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

@ISDTyrozan | @ISD_CCL

Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#560 - 2014-01-17 21:17:17 UTC
Trii Seo wrote:

- Null "bears", and I'd actually use this term referring to people whom you cannot under any circumstances force to defend/pick a fight won't fight for profits from an ESS.


This may come as a shock to some people, but that ratting "person" is frequently an alt of someone currently engaged in a pvp fleet elsewhere on their main account. No, I'm not going to jump on dual comms and try to form up a gang to counter a few dudes roaming by, especially if they are in interceptors or cloakies. I'm going to dock the alt and focus on what I'm doing on the main screen.

Even if I'm not otherwise engaged, no I won't form up with the 5 dudes that happen to be awake in station to engage your 30 man cruiser gang in the next 60 seconds.

People who cry about "null bears" seem to be oblivious to an important fact. Actual pvp losses when they undock are reimbursed by the alliance anyway. There is nothing for them to be afraid of losing. What these people are really crying about is failing to gank non-reimbursable PvE boats, which by definition are not fight capable and WILL dock at every opportunity by design. The reason you don't get a fight, is you're not providing an opportunity for a decent fight. Sometimes it's as simple as not having an appropriate ship in station to engage what you brought, not just a question of numbers.

Trii Seo wrote:

An alliance that will fight you will fight you - if they can get numbers to go after you, or they have a remote chance of catching you. If you're in a cloaky/nullified T3 or a gang of interceptors, there's less incentive to form up simply because the other side will just run off before the fight even starts.

"But they blob!" "But they form up a counter!" well, likely you're the one that came in expecting to pick off easy targets - carebears. So it's kind of a "pot, meet kettle" situation.

If a group of players is willing to pick a fight, they don't need an ESS or any other stuff to incentivize the fighting. They just need a taget to hang around in the area long enough to form up a gang and go after it. ESS will do nothing to incentivize PvP in this case, and frankly siphons have a similar result.


That's pretty much it. If we can form up and get a fight, we will. If we do form, don't cry about blobbing and expect us to tell people who want to fight to sit it out.

Trii Seo wrote:
An alliance that will not fight you will not fight you. No matter the amount of ESS, siphons, all this stuff you stack on them - they won't fight you, it's hardly ever worth losing ships over the amounts lost.

At least a siphon steals something while it's there to the benefit of the attacker. The defenders will never deploy an ESS to start with in current form and it is useless for the attackers to deploy. All it does is provide a global warpin for an off gate fight. About the only positive side I see, is it provides incentive for the attackers to stay in system and take the fight after deploying one offensively. But that's not an incentive to deploy it offensively either. I guess leaving it could work as bait in a hotdrop / logoffski trap for when the ratter decides to take it down.

Then there are the issues of trying to do a coordinated "ratting op" to effectively use one of these. First and foremost, if we have enough dudes for that, we're going on a roam looking for targets instead. Not ratting. Second, an average null system can hardly support a gang ratting efficiently. Third, thanks to EvE's PvE structure, this "ratting gang" will be spread around the system and must dock up to reship before taking the fight. They can't simply fleet warp to the ESS. Which means the aggressor can set up first, bubble the undock and blap nullified ships coming to cash out. A scout for an early warning could be another ratter that just docks up without deploying the structure. An alt sitting on the ESS for emergency cash out could likewise be another ratter. One could argue that a pipe with multiple systems could handle a 20+ man ratting operation and do it profitably with a dedicated scout, but that takes us back to the first point. Why would they form up to rat instead of going to PvP? Ratting is typically something you do sporadically in downtime, solo, when there is nothing better to do with that character at the moment.