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Increase PVP and combat afk cloaky camping

Author
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#381 - 2013-09-25 14:14:47 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
No one takes an afk cloaker for afk anyways. So why would they take you for afk?

The point is, as long as you are not playing EVE, you should not harm anyone at all. That's the point you don't seems to graps.


If I want to try and make them think I am AFK, why shouldn't I? Whether I am successful or not is irrelevant: I should be able to try. Just like I am able to try and convince people in jita that I will pay them double any isk they send me. This is a big part of eve: the ability to 'metagame' in these ways, to mislead, misrepresent and flat out lie to your own advantage.

Why are you trying to remove such abilities? Do you understand what game you're playing?

As for your point about people who are not playing eve not harming anyone... um, it's rather obvious isn't it? AFK players already can't harm anyone. I cannot activate my guns against you as I am not there to press the button, I cannot report intel on you as I am not there to gather it, I cannot even send you taunting messages in the chat window, as I am not there. I am incapable of doing anything at all in the game because, as you point out, I am not playing.

Your complaint sounds a bit dumb when it's spelled out like that, doesn't it?

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#382 - 2013-09-25 14:18:31 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Because when at a safe with the cloak on I can do nothing to any other ship. Ever. I'd have to turn of the cloak to do something an then, I'm at risk.

Again, that's according to you. According to the other players, you are a huge threat and want to have a tool to neutralize you and make sure they are safe in the same wayas you can make sure to be safe.


No, that is according to game mechanics. While cloaked I can do nothing to another ship. I cannot target, activate a module or much anything else except move around.

For such an old character you seem really, really out of touch with how the game works. Perhaps that is part of the problem.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#383 - 2013-09-25 14:23:22 UTC
NightmareX wrote:

a.) I'm gonna be honest here and say that if local had to be nerfed for letting the cloakers have more risks, then i will go for that. Everyone should have risks and dangers in EVE. EVE is not Hello Kitty Online.

b.) I agree that the hotdrop mechanics are a bit unbalanced.


Regarding a), that is usually what most people propose these days. That is what I favor a nerf to local and cloaks.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

NightmareX
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#384 - 2013-09-25 14:24:47 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
If I am playing the meta-game is that not active enough? Don't I pay the same as you and have the same sandbox environment free to play as I wish without governance (within the TOS\EULA OFC)? Who are you to decree how I should play as I am no-one to decree how you should play? No-one, exactly.

Doesn't matter, everyone needs to be active to achieve something, that's the whole point. It's a standard to every games that you have to play the game to achieve something. Let me know what kind of known MMO game today that let you be afk and gain advantages and also lets you achieve something by not being at your computer?

Maximus Aerelius wrote:
If you are mining and activate your lasers there is nothing to say that you are active. Until your cargo hold fills up you could be sat there watching the pretty lights as they bore into the asteroid mesmerised by the sound...you are no longer active and should be logged form the server?

They alsohave to make sure to let the client register that you are active. Like i have said many times already. I'm totally against afk mining and afk missioning to, so it should apply for them to that they have to let the client know that you are playing and not EVE playing for you.

Maximus Aerelius wrote:
What about the people who dock up in Low Sec ad stay there AFK? Are they abusing the mechanics that the station doesn't expel them when they have been idle for 60 mins? No. That's working as intended

They are in station safe and are not doing anything. They simply wouldn't care if they was on the character screen when they get back to the computer as it only takes them 5-7 seconds to get back to where they was before they got kicked. Again, you are complaining about something that isn't an issue. Stop making excuses.

Maximus Aerelius wrote:
I'm playing EVE, I'm just not playing how you want me to play because it's called a sandbox environment and emergent gameplay comes about through people playing outside of what other people think is the norm...it's waht makes EVE so damn good Smile

Ehm, no, you are not playing EVE if you are not at your computer. How is that playing according to you?

Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Again, no-one is abusing an online game. We are using tactics against people who know we are there because a free 0 effort intelligence display channel tells them that we are: Local.

Again, you gains advantages and achieves something while you don't even play the game. How is that fair play to the others?

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama

NightmareX
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#385 - 2013-09-25 14:24:55 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Answered.

I'm afraid you failed quite hard on that one.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#386 - 2013-09-25 14:25:53 UTC
I posted this in the other AFK cloaking thread, that 92 page monster.....

http://interstellarprivateer.wordpress.com/2013/01/06/unbreaking-local/

Its got some pretty good ideas on how things could be changed to bring some more excitement back to null. Note it is a game balance post, so it has both sides of this debate giving things up. Cloaks become detectable, but local is decoupled from intel.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

NightmareX
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#387 - 2013-09-25 14:33:39 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
If I want to try and make them think I am AFK, why shouldn't I? Whether I am successful or not is irrelevant: I should be able to try. Just like I am able to try and convince people in jita that I will pay them double any isk they send me. This is a big part of eve: the ability to 'metagame' in these ways, to mislead, misrepresent and flat out lie to your own advantage.

How are you supposed to make them think you are afk even when you are?

Again, the second they finds out that they have a cloaker in their system, it will be the second they believe you are watching them behind their asses all the time.

Explain to me why they wouldn't think this way?

TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Why are you trying to remove such abilities? Do you understand what game you're playing?

Because it's not fair?

Because you gain advantages while not playing EVE while everyone else have to be active all the time to gain advantages.

TheGunslinger42 wrote:
As for your point about people who are not playing eve not harming anyone... um, it's rather obvious isn't it? AFK players already can't harm anyone

I cannot activate my guns against you as I am not there to press the button, I cannot report intel on you as I am not there to gather it, I cannot even send you taunting messages in the chat window, as I am not there. I am incapable of doing anything at all in the game because, as you point out, I am not playing.

That's according to you as the cloaker and not according to the other players in that system. No you can't hurt anyone playwise while being afk, but you can hurt alot of other peoples mindwise because they think you are active (while you are not) witch is gaining an unfair advantage over others who are playing the game actively.

TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Your complaint sounds a bit dumb when it's spelled out like that, doesn't it?

Look who's talking.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama

Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#388 - 2013-09-25 14:33:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
You say:

NightmareX wrote:
everyone needs to be active to achieve something, that's the whole point.
and then you say
NightmareX wrote:
Again, you gains advantages and achieves something while you don't even play the game


So which is it as you a contradicting what you are saying here.

NightmareX wrote:
I'm totally against afk mining and afk missioning to, so it should apply for them to that they have to let the client know that you are playing and not EVE playing for you.

So you want to kick Miners and Missioners as well? I'm all against AFK Missioners and AFK Miners as they directly profit and gain while being AFK but this doesn't apply to "AFK Cloaking" as there is no benefit to it.

Maximus Aerelius wrote:
I'm playing EVE, I'm just not playing how you want me to play because it's called a sandbox environment and emergent gameplay comes about through people playing outside of what other people think is the norm...it's what makes EVE so damn good Smile

NightmareX wrote:
Ehm, no, you are not playing EVE if you are not at your computer. How is that playing according to you?

This really does irritate me. Because I am sat on a perch just watching traffic go by and not actively engaging with the universe but I am at my computer I am classed as AFK? Really?

You seem to want to apply your dictatorial version of how people should play and in what style and if that is how you want to play then this isn't the game for you I'm afraid.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#389 - 2013-09-25 14:36:52 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:


The point, my dense little friend, is that such a timer would prevent ACTIVE players from tricking people into thinking they were AFK. The entire reason this strategy exists is so that someone will think you are afk when you actually arent. This would no longer be possible. That means ACTIVE players wouldn't be able to do certain stuff anymore.

So your continued protests that this would only affect those who are "not playing eve" is demonstrably false. It affects those who are active too - it provides guaranteed intel about them to other players, and they cannot influence or misrepresent themselves.

Why are you punishing active players, bro?


Why would you want to prevent active players from tricking people into thinking they were afk?

If you couldn't keep your character permacloaked, waiting for an opportunity, you wouldn't see supercap kills like the recent shadow cartel nyx loss. Often this involves putting a cloaked ship in a strategic spot all night long waiting for the opportune moment to decloak and tackle.

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with afk cloaking. It is currently the ONLY balance to local chat.

You don't get to purge a system of hostiles. Instead, you must learn to play with hostiles in system.

NightmareX
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#390 - 2013-09-25 14:42:20 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
So which is it as you a contradicting what you are saying here.

If you actually had been reading what i'm saying, then you would see that i'm saying that everyone needs to be active to achieve something while afk cloakers gains advantages and achieves something while you don't even play the game, witch is totally wrong. The fact that you didn't even see that is quite hell of a blunder for you.

Maximus Aerelius wrote:
So you want to kick Miners and Missioners as well? I'm all against AFK Missioners and AFK Miners as they directly profit and gain while being AFK but this doesn't apply to "AFK Cloaking" as there is no benefit to it.

They all are afk witch is the whole point here. I'm against the whole idea of going afk and be able to achieve something. The afk miners and afk missioners are gaining isk while being afk, while an afk cloaker gains fears on others while the cloakers are afk.

See the problem?

Maximus Aerelius wrote:
This really does irritate me. Because I am sat on a perch just watching traffic go by and not actively engaging with the universe but I am at my computer I am classed as AFK? Really?

So if you are sitting watching traffic witch is not being afk by the way, what makes it so hard to press a button or whatever in EVE to let the EVE client register that you are active?

Maximus Aerelius wrote:
You seem to want to apply your dictatorial version of how people should play and in what style and if that is how you want ot play then this isn't the game for you I'm afraid.

Don't talk. You seems to love this grief tool and gain those advantages because you know it works and you know you don't have to lift a finger to cause havoc where the others are. And because it's fun for you.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#391 - 2013-09-25 14:43:42 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:


The point, my dense little friend, is that such a timer would prevent ACTIVE players from tricking people into thinking they were AFK. The entire reason this strategy exists is so that someone will think you are afk when you actually arent. This would no longer be possible. That means ACTIVE players wouldn't be able to do certain stuff anymore.

So your continued protests that this would only affect those who are "not playing eve" is demonstrably false. It affects those who are active too - it provides guaranteed intel about them to other players, and they cannot influence or misrepresent themselves.

Why are you punishing active players, bro?


Why would you want to prevent active players from tricking people into thinking they were afk?

If you couldn't keep your character permacloaked, waiting for an opportunity, you wouldn't see supercap kills like the recent shadow cartel nyx loss. Often this involves putting a cloaked ship in a strategic spot all night long waiting for the opportune moment to decloak and tackle.

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with afk cloaking. It is currently the ONLY balance to local chat.

You don't get to purge a system of hostiles. Instead, you must learn to play with hostiles in system.



This.

And to be clear, I don't like AFK cloaking. I think it is bad game play...but necessary given how local works.

My preference would be to decouple intel from local, and at the same time change mechanics for cloaking.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Xionyxa
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#392 - 2013-09-25 14:43:45 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Storm Airkian wrote:
OK Obviously some of the ppl here suggesting AFK camping is good as it is are not the sharpest quivers in the arrow... So I will just spell this plain and easy.

What does the "afk" player do or risk while simply doing "afk cloaking" He does not have to be in the same city with the computer that is sitting there and "afk cloaking" the system.. Now we all hate "BOT"s so tell me one extra difference between a BOT and a Afk Cloaker except that the BOT "might be making isk"

The very easy solution would be make cloak module need to be re-activated every 10cycles, or 20, or 50 for that matter... But u would not like that would u?? Cause leaving an alt in a system cloaked and meanwhile playing eve with another char wont be as easy as it will need some "Dual Boxing"

So let them do multi boxing if they have to.. But NO TO "I am completely safe, I wont and dont risk ANYTHING, but u carebears shall fear my BOT"

Just AFK Camping is not OK as it is now...


I hope this was clear enough.


A) AFK players are not botting. There is no automated input - there is NO input. Thats a big difference.
B) AFK players gain nothing. You can't say "except this..." when that difference is colossal and is so incredibly important.
C) The status of being either cloaked or afk means, by definition and the mechanics available, that I am unable to interact with anyone else - why should you be able to interact with me when it is impossible for me to interact with you? Sounds pretty imbalanced bro.

Additionally, sticking a cycle timer on it destroys wormhole space and is a nerf to ACTIVE players. How can you rant so hard against afk players but then come up with a suggestion which is a huge punishment to ACTIVE players? Either you're not too bright, or you're being dishonest.

Active players would on a regular basis be exposed for the brief second in between reactivating modules. In wormhole space this is utterly catastrophic, as there would be no way to remain undetected in a wormhole. Your presence would be blipping in intervals. It's also terrible for other aspects, including ones in k-space. If, for example, I'm sitting watching an enemies tower and reporting on the comings and goings of their members - at a regular interval I would briefly flash on their screen, revealing my position. I would lose the ability to semi-covertly (they already know I'm in system thanks to local, but dont know what gate, tower, station, etc I'm observing) run reconnaissance.

So thanks but no thanks, your idea is a) terrible in terms of both balance and mechanics and b) provides you certainties and intel for free that you are not entitled to


A) Quite right, but some GMs see it as griefing and will remove the player/ship form the system.

B) Very wrong, if there is no gain from "AFK cloaking", AFK cloaking would never happen. Truth is there is always a gain, if they don't gain, ie, the system empties of everyone who isn't in a pvp ship, station or pos, they go elsewhere. Hence they gain, if it be ***** and giggles, tactical knowledge on soft targets or simply time saved from going through log in screens, only they know, but they gain.

C) It depends what you define as interaction, I'd define watching players mine, rat, do complexes, move through systems, test ships and more importantly (what they are waiting for) make mistakes as interaction. Cloaking is both the strongest and the weakest pvp tool in the game. Strongest because you can be %100 safe and watch other players, weakest, because yes, while you are cloaked all you can do is watch, but cloaks are easy to turn off, once off a ship with a cloak is simply a ship with one less high slot.

However, I do agree that cloak changes to remove long term AFK cloaking for the game should only affect the use of cloaks where AFK cloaking can reduce other player's game experience, that being Sov space and then only for cloaking up for over 2 hours straight in the one system. Make it a pos module or something that only sov holders can use. Either that or rebalance hot drops (not the cause of AFK cloaking, but certainly why people have so much trouble with a red cloaked in system). Hot drops have 0 effect on WH space, so changes to them wouldn't even be noticed by people who live in WHs.

The argument that AFK players are no threat only applies in games where players are flagged as AFK, not EvE, and even in those games an "AFK player" can be simply someone who isn't touching the keyboard or mouse.

In EvE anyone who is hostile and logged on is a threat, end of story!
NightmareX
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#393 - 2013-09-25 14:54:49 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Quote:

Grief play
What is grief play?
Griefing
A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making others’ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account.

This should not be confused with standard conflict that might arise between two (or more) players, such as corporation wars. The EVE universe is a harsh universe largely driven by such conflict and notice must be taken of the fact that nonconsensual combat alone is not considered to be grief play per the above definition.

By that, explain to me why an afk cloaker who have the intention to cause fear and gain advantages doesn't comes under that?

Aka, if your not there playing actively, YOU as a player doesn't profit on anything. So yeah, it says all.

Sure, EVE is not perfect and there is still lot of things that have to be fixed or changed to make EVE a better game to play. And this afk thingie is one of the things that needs to get fixed.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama

Anthar Thebess
#394 - 2013-09-25 14:59:18 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
I posted this in the other AFK cloaking thread, that 92 page monster.....

http://interstellarprivateer.wordpress.com/2013/01/06/unbreaking-local/

Its got some pretty good ideas on how things could be changed to bring some more excitement back to null. Note it is a game balance post, so it has both sides of this debate giving things up. Cloaks become detectable, but local is decoupled from intel.


Lets keep the Flames up :)
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#395 - 2013-09-25 15:01:54 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Quote:

Grief play
What is grief play?
Griefing
A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making others’ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account.

This should not be confused with standard conflict that might arise between two (or more) players, such as corporation wars. The EVE universe is a harsh universe largely driven by such conflict and notice must be taken of the fact that nonconsensual combat alone is not considered to be grief play per the above definition.

By that, explain to me why an afk cloaker who have the intention to cause fear and gain advantages doesn't comes under that?

Aka, if your not there playing actively, YOU as a player doesn't profit on anything. So yeah, it says all.

Sure, EVE is not perfect and there is still lot of things that have to be fixed or changed to make EVE a better game to play. And this afk thingie is one of the things that needs to get fixed.


Because it is not singling out any player specifically. If I were to say, follow you around and hunt you no matter where you went, then you might have a valid griefing argument.

Hell, according to many players a gate camp would be grief play, but clearly it isn't.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

NightmareX
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#396 - 2013-09-25 15:05:14 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Teckos Pech wrote:
Because it is not singling out any player specifically. If I were to say, follow you around and hunt you no matter where you went, then you might have a valid griefing argument.

Hell, according to many players a gate camp would be grief play, but clearly it isn't.

But that's what the players in that system think. They believe that you are following them all the time whether you are active or not. Why else do they fears the cloakers all the time then?

And by doing a gate camp, your not afk. So it's a totally different case.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama

Anthar Thebess
#397 - 2013-09-25 15:19:00 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:

By that, explain to me why an afk cloaker who have the intention to cause fear and gain advantages doesn't comes under that?

Aka, if your not there playing actively, YOU as a player doesn't profit on anything. So yeah, it says all.

Sure, EVE is not perfect and there is still lot of things that have to be fixed or changed to make EVE a better game to play. And this afk thingie is one of the things that needs to get fixed.


Because it is not singling out any player specifically. If I were to say, follow you around and hunt you no matter where you went, then you might have a valid griefing argument.

Hell, according to many players a gate camp would be grief play, but clearly it isn't.[/quote]

I totally agree/disagree with you :)

At the moment when the same system is [afk] cloacky camped by the same guy for few days this is griefing.
This don't bring any thing positive to game.
The issue with cloacky camping is not in the how cloack works, but rather show current nullsec state.
NightmareX
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#398 - 2013-09-25 15:23:17 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Heh, some few errors with that quote over me thinks Anthar Thebess Big smile

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama

TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#399 - 2013-09-25 15:25:25 UTC  |  Edited by: TheGunslinger42
NightmareX wrote:

How are you supposed to make them think you are afk even when you are?

Again, the second they finds out that they have a cloaker in their system, it will be the second they believe you are watching them behind their asses all the time.

Explain to me why they wouldn't think this way?


If I sit in the system for a long time - active the entire time - there are people who may end up thinking "he must be afk". Perhaps you're not one of them, and assume I am active every second I'm there. But there are others who will assume I'm not, or who will think it's unlikely I'm paying close attention the entire time and who think they can squeak by unnoticed. Sometimes they'll be right, sometimes they wont.

NightmareX wrote:
Because it's not fair?

Because you gain advantages while not playing EVE while everyone else have to be active all the time to gain advantages.


Except it is fair because I am not gaining any advantage. If I am not there, I can't actually act on anything the residents are doing or not doing. The fact that you choose to react to an uncertainty one way does not mean that the uncertainty - i.e. me - is "unfair".

I'll give you another example - this is one I actually encountered a few times back in the days when I wardecced random people. A number of the people I decced over the years would, if I jumped into their system immediately dock up. They'd remain docked as long as I was in system - even when I was docked myself. If I wasn't getting any luck from them, I'd dock in station with them and remain there - sometimes afk, sometimes not. They'd all remain docked anyway, just in case I gave chase.

Would you say I had an unfair advantage then? That my mere presence and flashy red war target icon could cause those people to dock up and do nothing? I'd go afk sometimes just to annoy them. It's basically the same as the cloakers in null, I don't have an "advantage" at all - people are just scaredy cats sometimes.

NightmareX wrote:
That's according to you as the cloaker and not according to the other players in that system. No you can't hurt anyone playwise while being afk, but you can hurt alot of other peoples mindwise because they think you are active (while you are not) witch is gaining an unfair advantage over others who are playing the game actively.


So I'm hurting people "mindwise"? Well I'm sorry to say but if you have issues with your mind and how it responds to certain things, that is not a fault in the game mechanics - it's a fault, obviously, with your mindset. CCP can't and shouldn't change the game mechanics based around your state of mind, because you're not the only person who plays. There are thousands of others with different personalities, different mindsets and different judgements. CCP can't patch your cowardice.

Now scram, kid
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#400 - 2013-09-25 15:31:49 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Quote:

Grief play
What is grief play?
Griefing
A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making others’ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account.

This should not be confused with standard conflict that might arise between two (or more) players, such as corporation wars. The EVE universe is a harsh universe largely driven by such conflict and notice must be taken of the fact that nonconsensual combat alone is not considered to be grief play per the above definition.

By that, explain to me why an afk cloaker who have the intention to cause fear and gain advantages doesn't comes under that?

Aka, if your not there playing actively, YOU as a player doesn't profit on anything. So yeah, it says all.

Sure, EVE is not perfect and there is still lot of things that have to be fixed or changed to make EVE a better game to play. And this afk thingie is one of the things that needs to get fixed.


I already explained why sitting afk cloaked fails on numerous parts of that definition. You cannot use this definition because it directly contradicts statements you made. The definition says it is a player who devotes much of their time to doing it. You have repeatedly stated that afk players aren't devoting any time or effort to the game (and therefore should not get any of the "gains" you think they get). So which is it bro, are they devoting a lot of time and effort to it (part of the definition of griefing) or are they not putting any time and effort into it (part of what you claim to be the issue)

You can't have it both ways friend. Please try and keep your story straight