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Increase PVP and combat afk cloaky camping

Author
NightmareX
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#401 - 2013-09-25 15:47:05 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
If I sit in the system for a long time - active the entire time - there are people who may end up thinking "he must be afk". Perhaps you're not one of them, and assume I am active every second I'm there. But there are others who will assume I'm not, or who will think it's unlikely I'm paying close attention the entire time and who think they can squeak by unnoticed. Sometimes they'll be right, sometimes they wont.

You assume they think you will be afk while they don't. Every player who have a cloaker in system will believe that you are just watching him and every steps he takes even when you have been silent for a very long time. They know you will strike the second they are doing a mistake.

I have been living in 0.0 space my self for 4-5 years, so i know what we as players in a system with a cloaker thinks.

Let me fit up a Stealth Bomber with a cyno while you do ratting in that 0.0 space system. Lets see if you will believe that you will be safe at any points and lets see if you ever will take me as afk.

You simply don't.

TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Except it is fair because I am not gaining any advantage. If I am not there, I can't actually act on anything the residents are doing or not doing. The fact that you choose to react to an uncertainty one way does not mean that the uncertainty - i.e. me - is "unfair".

You gain the advantage by causing fear to someone by not playing EVE. How is that fair?

TheGunslinger42 wrote:
I'll give you another example - this is one I actually encountered a few times back in the days when I wardecced random people. A number of the people I decced over the years would, if I jumped into their system immediately dock up. They'd remain docked as long as I was in system - even when I was docked myself. If I wasn't getting any luck from them, I'd dock in station with them and remain there - sometimes afk, sometimes not. They'd all remain docked anyway, just in case I gave chase.

Would you say I had an unfair advantage then? That my mere presence and flashy red war target icon could cause those people to dock up and do nothing? I'd go afk sometimes just to annoy them. It's basically the same as the cloakers in null, I don't have an "advantage" at all - people are just scaredy cats sometimes.

The only thing you can do then is to be active and spy on them until they realize they can't do something about you and have to undock to keep doing what they are doing. At some point they will do that.

You can't expect them to be docked in fear of you if your not playing EVE, right?

TheGunslinger42 wrote:
So I'm hurting people "mindwise"? Well I'm sorry to say but if you have issues with your mind and how it responds to certain things, that is not a fault in the game mechanics - it's a fault, obviously, with your mindset. CCP can't and shouldn't change the game mechanics based around your state of mind, because you're not the only person who plays. There are thousands of others with different personalities, different mindsets and different judgements. CCP can't patch your cowardice.

Now scram, kid

Yes, you are twisting their minds with a tactic that gains an unfair tactic on those in the system who are active playing EVE.

Why should you only gain an advantage by being afk and not let the EVE client gain an advantage on you if you go afk?

TheGunslinger42 wrote:
I already explained why sitting afk cloaked fails on numerous parts of that definition. You cannot use this definition because it directly contradicts statements you made. The definition says it is a player who devotes much of their time to doing it. You have repeatedly stated that afk players aren't devoting any time or effort to the game (and therefore should not get any of the "gains" you think they get). So which is it bro, are they devoting a lot of time and effort to it (part of the definition of griefing) or are they not putting any time and effort into it (part of what you claim to be the issue)

You can't have it both ways friend. Please try and keep your story straight

You haven't explained anything on why it's not grief play as the EULA there explains pretty good.

CCP says that kind of gameplay is griefing, why isn't it that according to you?

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama

TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#402 - 2013-09-25 15:55:26 UTC
I have dedicated two full posts to explaining why sitting afk fails to meet any of the criteria as stated by CCP, you have yet to counter any of it. Including the massive contradiction in your statements regarding the effort/time put in.

Why should I bother responding to you anymore when you are deliberately skipping over any argument that you can't refute?
NightmareX
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#403 - 2013-09-25 15:57:53 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
I have dedicated two full posts to explaining why sitting afk fails to meet any of the criteria as stated by CCP, you have yet to counter any of it. Including the massive contradiction in your statements regarding the effort/time put in.

Why should I bother responding to you anymore when you are deliberately skipping over any argument that you can't refute?

No you haven't. You have twisted you reply to it to go around the EULA to make it sounds like your not doing grief play or breaking the EULA.

Ok i'm gonna write what the EULA says again and underline and point it to you why you are wrong.

A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making others’ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way[/b]. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account.

1. who devotes much of his time to making others’ lives miserable: Yes, you are making their lives miserable.

2. his enjoyment: Yes, you enjoy doing this.

3. while he does not profit from it in any way: Yes, you are not playing EVE, so how are you supposed to get profit from it?

4. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players: And this is exacly what you are doing as you just meet 3 of the points over.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#404 - 2013-09-25 16:00:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Because it is not singling out any player specifically. If I were to say, follow you around and hunt you no matter where you went, then you might have a valid griefing argument.

Hell, according to many players a gate camp would be grief play, but clearly it isn't.

But that's what the players in that system think. They believe that you are following them all the time whether you are active or not. Why else do they fears the cloakers all the time then?

And by doing a gate camp, your not afk. So it's a totally different case.


I don't care what players in a given system think. It is what CCP thinks and after watching this topic for 6 years CCP has very strongly implied by their lack of response on this that it does not fit into the category of grief play. If it did they would have acted long, long ago.

Grief play does not have an AFK component. If I single out a player and stalk him through out the New Eden cluster and gank him and only him whenever and where ever I can clearly I am not AFK, but I am almost surely engaging in grief play.

So, stop calling it grief play cause it makes you look like a nub and a noob...with every negative implication those terms carry with them.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

NightmareX
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#405 - 2013-09-25 16:04:47 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Teckos Pech wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Because it is not singling out any player specifically. If I were to say, follow you around and hunt you no matter where you went, then you might have a valid griefing argument.

Hell, according to many players a gate camp would be grief play, but clearly it isn't.

But that's what the players in that system think. They believe that you are following them all the time whether you are active or not. Why else do they fears the cloakers all the time then?

And by doing a gate camp, your not afk. So it's a totally different case.


I don't care what players in a given system think. It is what CCP thinks and after watching this topic for 6 years CCP has very strongly implied by their lack of response on this that it does not fit into the category of grief play. If it did they would have acted long, long ago.

Grief play does not have an AFK component. If I single out a player and stalk him through out the New Eden cluster and gank him and only him whenever and where ever I can clearly I am not AFK, but I am almost surely engaging in grief play.

So, stop calling it grief play cause it makes you look like a nub and a noob...with every negative implication those terms carry with them.

Read the reply i gave to 'TheGunslinger42' in the post over your post.

It explains very well that you are grifing others.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#406 - 2013-09-25 16:11:12 UTC
Quote:
You gain the advantage by causing fear to someone by not playing EVE. How is that fair?


Okay, this is getting just stupid.

Fear is a feature of this game not a bug. War decs cause fear in high sec carebears. Are they doing something wrong? No. Those mechanics were designed that way. The entire back story of Eve is a cold, harsh, dystopian future for a branch of humanity. Non-consensual PvP is a primary element of the game and that too causes fear. Burn Jita, ice interdictions, Hulkageddon, all cause "fear" in those who pay attention and you know what, they adapt and do just fine.

The idea that a group of players want to play in game "terrorists/nercs" by specializing in BLOPs and then hiring out themselves out to the highest bidder to go disrupt an alliances operations in that alliances home sov systems is totally and completely legitimate game play. They will achieve this by the "fear factor" and they'll enforce that "fear factor" by ganking anything and everything they can. Be it a blinged out ratting BS, a fleet of mining ships in an ice belt, or even just AFK camping high value systems. All of that. It. Is. All. Legitimate. Gameplay. Has been for every one of the 9 years you've been in this game.

Hell, IIRC, alot of what I just described fit with what Burn Eden used to do down in PB a few years ago. They set up down there and just poked the crap out of the alliance that was down there. Made their life Hell. Can't recall the alliances name, it was when Goons took DQPB from BoB. There was some mild drama about it over in CAOD about it.

So stop posting about fear. Either that and GTFO, and no I don't want your stuff. Just GTFO.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#407 - 2013-09-25 16:13:02 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Because it is not singling out any player specifically. If I were to say, follow you around and hunt you no matter where you went, then you might have a valid griefing argument.

Hell, according to many players a gate camp would be grief play, but clearly it isn't.

But that's what the players in that system think. They believe that you are following them all the time whether you are active or not. Why else do they fears the cloakers all the time then?

And by doing a gate camp, your not afk. So it's a totally different case.


I don't care what players in a given system think. It is what CCP thinks and after watching this topic for 6 years CCP has very strongly implied by their lack of response on this that it does not fit into the category of grief play. If it did they would have acted long, long ago.

Grief play does not have an AFK component. If I single out a player and stalk him through out the New Eden cluster and gank him and only him whenever and where ever I can clearly I am not AFK, but I am almost surely engaging in grief play.

So, stop calling it grief play cause it makes you look like a nub and a noob...with every negative implication those terms carry with them.

Read the reply i gave to 'TheGunslinger42' in the post over your post.

It explains very well by you are grifing others.


Sorry, 2 is your assumption. I hate AFK cloaking. It sucks. I rarely do it...except for Finfleet. I make an exception for them.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#408 - 2013-09-25 16:13:17 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
I have dedicated two full posts to explaining why sitting afk fails to meet any of the criteria as stated by CCP, you have yet to counter any of it. Including the massive contradiction in your statements regarding the effort/time put in.

Why should I bother responding to you anymore when you are deliberately skipping over any argument that you can't refute?

No you haven't. You have twisted you reply to it to go around the EULA to make it sounds like your not doing grief play or breaking the EULA.

Ok i'm gonna write what the EULA says again and underline and point it to you why you are wrong.

A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making others’ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way[/b]. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account.

1. who devotes much of his time to making others’ lives miserable: Yes, you are making their lives miserable.

2. his enjoyment: Yes, you enjoy doing this.

3. while he does not profit from it in any way: Yes, you are not playing EVE, so how are you supposed to get profit from it?

4. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players: And this is exacly what you are doing as you just meet 3 of the points over.


But you've spent much of this thread whining that AFK players aren't playing the game and putting in any effort for their rewards.

See how this directly contradicts first point? You are now willingly contradicting yourself in order to try and twist it to be a violation when, by your own statements, it isn't.

As for "deriving enjoyment"... I enjoy when ships blow up. I enjoy when my corp/alliance triumphs over another. Sitting cloaked for a long time sometimes is part of achieving these goals, and they are both valid goals and not griefing. You also rather deliberately skipped the "not profit from it in any way" part. I profit from it if I kill you and get your loot. I profit from it if I disrupt your alliance in order for my alliance to do better. Therefore, not griefing.

Sitting in a system is not antagonising other players. It is not targeting a specific player, and is not following that player around to antagonise them. You could move literally just one system over and the "AFK cloaker" will no longer be an issue.

So for a third time now I have demonstrated how sitting afk cloaked fails to meet ANY of the criteria as CCP state it. Sorry for thoroughly destroying your arguments.

Except not really.
NightmareX
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#409 - 2013-09-25 16:17:15 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Sorry, 2 is your assumption. I hate AFK cloaking. It sucks. I rarely do it...except for Finfleet. I make an exception for them.

No, it's not an assumtion, because if you haven't been enjoying what you was doing there, you simply wouldn't keep doing it.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama

NightmareX
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#410 - 2013-09-25 16:19:38 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
But you've spent much of this thread whining that AFK players aren't playing the game and putting in any effort for their rewards.

See how this directly contradicts first point? You are now willingly contradicting yourself in order to try and twist it to be a violation when, by your own statements, it isn't.

As for "deriving enjoyment"... I enjoy when ships blow up. I enjoy when my corp/alliance triumphs over another. Sitting cloaked for a long time sometimes is part of achieving these goals, and they are both valid goals and not griefing. You also rather deliberately skipped the "not profit from it in any way" part. I profit from it if I kill you and get your loot. I profit from it if I disrupt your alliance in order for my alliance to do better. Therefore, not griefing.

Sitting in a system is not antagonising other players. It is not targeting a specific player, and is not following that player around to antagonise them. You could move literally just one system over and the "AFK cloaker" will no longer be an issue.

So for a third time now I have demonstrated how sitting afk cloaked fails to meet ANY of the criteria as CCP state it. Sorry for thoroughly destroying your arguments.

Except not really.

This is just another way of telling you why it's wrong. I'm more for the thing that lets us have an afk timer. It's the best solution so far. The op's idea might work to, but the idea who are most balanced are the afk timer.

The afk timer doesn't hurt any active players, and it doesn't hurt the afk players either, because weeellllll...... they aren't playing.

Teckos Pech wrote:
So stop posting about fear. Either that and GTFO, and no I don't want your stuff. Just GTFO.

Causing fear ingame is a tactic, so yes, i can use the word 'fear' as much as i like as it's a big part of how EVE works.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#411 - 2013-09-25 16:26:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

By that, explain to me why an afk cloaker who have the intention to cause fear and gain advantages doesn't comes under that?

Aka, if your not there playing actively, YOU as a player doesn't profit on anything. So yeah, it says all.

Sure, EVE is not perfect and there is still lot of things that have to be fixed or changed to make EVE a better game to play. And this afk thingie is one of the things that needs to get fixed.

Because it is not singling out any player specifically. If I were to say, follow you around and hunt you no matter where you went, then you might have a valid griefing argument.

Hell, according to many players a gate camp would be grief play, but clearly it isn't.


I totally agree/disagree with you :)

At the moment when the same system is [afk] cloacky camped by the same guy for few days this is griefing.
This don't bring any thing positive to game.
The issue with cloacky camping is not in the how cloack works, but rather show current nullsec state.


It isn't grief play because it is not making anyone's game experience miserable, just a bit more difficult. Move over 1 ******* system for **** sake and you have just solved the problem. Now, if the guy follows, every single system, every single time, and is doing it pretty quickly too...you might have a case for grief play. Another solution: go rat in PvP ships with 4-5 guys. You will almost surely prevent a BLOPs hot drop in that case, or that single cloaky from engaging.

In other word's it can't be grief play if you have an obvious and simple solution to end whatever is making your game experience miserable.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#412 - 2013-09-25 16:34:02 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Sorry, 2 is your assumption. I hate AFK cloaking. It sucks. I rarely do it...except for Finfleet. I make an exception for them.

No, it's not an assumtion, because if you haven't been enjoying what you was doing there, you simply wouldn't keep doing it.


Look, stop being so damn obtuse. Do you know how much time I've spent AFK cloaking? No? Then have a nice cup of STFU. And while you are enjoying that nice cup of STFU, STFD and clean the crap of your glasses and read:

I almost never, ever AFK camp. I have AFK camped Finfleet's ratting system way back in Querious for a few hours. That's it (and that is a special case because...well :Finfleet:).

Do I enjoy it? No. Do I think it is good game play? No. Do I think it is necessary? Yes, given how local works it is unfortunately necessary.

As for the general argument about why others AFK camp...enjoyment is not really a factor because it is easy to set up--i.e. the costs are practically zero. So the enjoyment factor does not really factor into it.

And if you really believe this, go open a petition about it. See what happens. My guess: nothing.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

NightmareX
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#413 - 2013-09-25 16:49:41 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Teckos Pech wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Sorry, 2 is your assumption. I hate AFK cloaking. It sucks. I rarely do it...except for Finfleet. I make an exception for them.

No, it's not an assumtion, because if you haven't been enjoying what you was doing there, you simply wouldn't keep doing it.


Look, stop being so damn obtuse. Do you know how much time I've spent AFK cloaking? No? Then have a nice cup of STFU. And while you are enjoying that nice cup of STFU, STFD and clean the crap of your glasses and read:

I almost never, ever AFK camp. I have AFK camped Finfleet's ratting system way back in Querious for a few hours. That's it (and that is a special case because...well :Finfleet:).

Do I enjoy it? No. Do I think it is good game play? No. Do I think it is necessary? Yes, given how local works it is unfortunately necessary.

As for the general argument about why others AFK camp...enjoyment is not really a factor because it is easy to set up--i.e. the costs are practically zero. So the enjoyment factor does not really factor into it.

And if you really believe this, go open a petition about it. See what happens. My guess: nothing.

I don't have to know how much you play, fap or whatever to know the true story behind this. By simply following some simple logics you know gaining advantages and causing fear witch is a tactic ingame to other players by not even be at your computer is not how it supposed to be.

That needs to be changed or balanced so the afk players or cloakers doesn't gain any profits while not playing while others can't gain any profits on you by actively playing.

Now i'm not saying the others should have the advantage by only killing you. There should be some methods for the others that will keep you from going afk in some ways.

It's the balance between you as an afk cloaker and the balance on the others. You have tooooooons of advantages with little or no effort while the others "might" have some tiny advantages on you with extreme amount of effort.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#414 - 2013-09-25 17:04:53 UTC
NightmareX wrote:

No you haven't. You have twisted you reply to it to go around the EULA to make it sounds like your not doing grief play or breaking the EULA.

Ok i'm gonna write what the EULA says again and underline and point it to you why you are wrong.

A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making others’ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way[/b]. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account.

1. who devotes much of his time to making others’ lives miserable: Yes, you are making their lives miserable.

2. his enjoyment: Yes, you enjoy doing this.

3. while he does not profit from it in any way: Yes, you are not playing EVE, so how are you supposed to get profit from it?

4. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players: And this is exacly what you are doing as you just meet 3 of the points over.


Lets take a larger quote from the grief play policy (note, Grief Play is not technically part of the EULA/ToS, but is its own separate policy):

Quote:
A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making others’ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account.

This should not be confused with standard conflict that might arise between two (or more) players, such as corporation wars. The EVE universe is a harsh universe largely driven by such conflict and notice must be taken of the fact that nonconsensual combat alone is not considered to be grief play per the above definition.

An example of grief play would be the so called "Can baiting" in starter systems. An experienced player drops a cargo container with some items and waits for a new player to take from it. The new player is flagged and promptly attacked and killed by the owner of the container. Doing the same in the systems the Blood Stained Stars epic arc takes you through is also considered grief play and will not be tolerated.


That is the entire policy. Lets take a look at the example provided: can bating of new players in starter systems. This form of grief play is where an older more experienced player tells a new player to take stuff from a jettison can and when said player does so, destroys the new players noob ship. Why does this meet the standards of grief play? Well lets run through them:

1. Attacking a brand new player in a noob ship really makes that poor new player's first day in Eve rather miserable.
2. Does the griefer profit from this? No, because the modules on a noob ship are worthless in game. They provide zero isk value and their use to older players is very, very, very low relative to other modules the older player can use.
3. I've seen griefers spend quite a bit of time doing this...well until a second older player undocks in a velator, takes from the can and when the griefer shoots him docks up and undocks in a zealot and sends him running for his momma.

Now, compare this to some schlub in null who has been playing the game since 2004. An AFK cloaky shows up in his system and he starts crying on the forums like a 12 year old. Never mind this player could:

1. Move over one system and rat, mine, etc.
2. Fleet up with buddies in PvP ships and burn through anomalies.
3. Jump clone into Empire and Run L4s until the AFK cloaker realizes he isn't stopping the acquisition of isk.
4. Set up a reaction operation to generate isk. This is a player who has been playing for 8 or 9 years, they surely have the skills and probably the wealth to do this.

There are multitude of solutions to this so called "grief play". Compared to the new guy in his noob ship who has yet to learn the harshness of Eve, we are to believe this veteran player is really suffering this much from one guy in a cloaked ship?

GMAFB.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#415 - 2013-09-25 17:06:35 UTC
NightmareX wrote:

I don't have to know how much you play, fap or whatever to know the true story behind this. By simply following some simple logics you know gaining advantages and causing fear witch is a tactic ingame to other players by not even be at your computer is not how it supposed to be.


Well, if I'm gaining an advantage....not grief play. That was one of your necessary conditions. You've quite nicely shown that condition does not apply, therefore not griefing.

Q.E.D.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

NightmareX
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#416 - 2013-09-25 17:08:44 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Teckos Pech wrote:
NightmareX wrote:

I don't have to know how much you play, fap or whatever to know the true story behind this. By simply following some simple logics you know gaining advantages and causing fear witch is a tactic ingame to other players by not even be at your computer is not how it supposed to be.


Well, if I'm gaining an advantage....not grief play. That was one of your necessary conditions. You've quite nicely shown that condition does not apply, therefore not griefing.

Q.E.D.

If your gaining advantages over others by not playing to get profits of it, it's grief play Blink

On paper it is, but maybe not in reality for you.

Teckos Pech wrote:
Lets take a larger quote from the grief play policy (note, Grief Play is not technically part of the EULA/ToS, but is its own separate policy):

Quote:
A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making others’ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account.

This should not be confused with standard conflict that might arise between two (or more) players, such as corporation wars. The EVE universe is a harsh universe largely driven by such conflict and notice must be taken of the fact that nonconsensual combat alone is not considered to be grief play per the above definition.

An example of grief play would be the so called "Can baiting" in starter systems. An experienced player drops a cargo container with some items and waits for a new player to take from it. The new player is flagged and promptly attacked and killed by the owner of the container. Doing the same in the systems the Blood Stained Stars epic arc takes you through is also considered grief play and will not be tolerated.


That is the entire policy. Lets take a look at the example provided: can bating of new players in starter systems. This form of grief play is where an older more experienced player tells a new player to take stuff from a jettison can and when said player does so, destroys the new players noob ship. Why does this meet the standards of grief play? Well lets run through them:

1. Attacking a brand new player in a noob ship really makes that poor new player's first day in Eve rather miserable.
2. Does the griefer profit from this? No, because the modules on a noob ship are worthless in game. They provide zero isk value and their use to older players is very, very, very low relative to other modules the older player can use.
3. I've seen griefers spend quite a bit of time doing this...well until a second older player undocks in a velator, takes from the can and when the griefer shoots him docks up and undocks in a zealot and sends him running for his momma.

Now, compare this to some schlub in null who has been playing the game since 2004. An AFK cloaky shows up in his system and he starts crying on the forums like a 12 year old. Never mind this player could:

1. Move over one system and rat, mine, etc.
2. Fleet up with buddies in PvP ships and burn through anomalies.
3. Jump clone into Empire and Run L4s until the AFK cloaker realizes he isn't stopping the acquisition of isk.
4. Set up a reaction operation to generate isk. This is a player who has been playing for 8 or 9 years, they surely have the skills and probably the wealth to do this.

There are multitude of solutions to this so called "grief play". Compared to the new guy in his noob ship who has yet to learn the harshness of Eve, we are to believe this veteran player is really suffering this much from one guy in a cloaked ship?

GMAFB.

Basicly, what you are writing is just a part of the EULA there in the same way as the afk griefing as someone does also is a part of the same EULA section there.

You have to look at the whole picture dude.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#417 - 2013-09-25 17:16:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
NightmareX wrote:

I don't have to know how much you play, fap or whatever to know the true story behind this. By simply following some simple logics you know gaining advantages and causing fear witch is a tactic ingame to other players by not even be at your computer is not how it supposed to be.


Well, if I'm gaining an advantage....not grief play. That was one of your necessary conditions. You've quite nicely shown that condition does not apply, therefore not griefing.

Q.E.D.

If your gaining advantages over others by not playing to get profits of it, it's grief play Blink

On paper it is, but maybe not in reality for you.


No it isn't. You pointed this out yourself. I don't profit, then grief play, I do profit, then not grief play. If I'm gaining an advantage--i.e. denying you isk, your alliance isk, and lowering your index levels, and it is part of a preparation for invasion...then there is an advantage, a profit, a gain.

So not grief play. Go back and read your post here and engage your brain.

BTW, to help you out the definition of profit:


  • obtain a financial advantage or benefit, esp. from an investment.
  • "the only people to profit from the entire episode were the lawyers"

  • obtain an advantage or benefit.
  • "not all children would profit from this kind of schooling"

  • be beneficial to.
  • "it would profit us to change our plans"


The last two imply that if I get an advantage somehow, I'm profiting.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

NightmareX
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#418 - 2013-09-25 17:23:00 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Teckos Pech wrote:
No it isn't. You pointed this out yourself. I don't profit, then grief play, I do profit, then grief play. If I'm gaining an advantage--i.e. denying you isk, your alliance isk, and lowering your index levels, and it is part of a preparation for invasion...then there is an advantage, a profit, a gain.

But again, if you gain an advantage while you don't gain profits, it's grief play. CCP does care if you do grief play and don't care if you then gain some profits later. What CCPcares about is about gaining advantages and causing fears on others at the same time as you do not profits on it.

Teckos Pech wrote:
So not grief play. Go back and read your post here and engage your brain.

It's still grief play according to CCP.

Teckos Pech wrote:
BTW, to help you out the definition of profit:


  • obtain a financial advantage or benefit, esp. from an investment.
  • "the only people to profit from the entire episode were the lawyers"

  • obtain an advantage or benefit.
  • "not all children would profit from this kind of schooling"

  • be beneficial to.
  • "it would profit us to change our plans"


The last two imply that if I get an advantage somehow, I'm profiting.

We are talking about the rules CCP have sat for EVE Online, aka the best MMO game in history. What peoples does in real life have nothing to do with what CCP does with EVE.

It's bad when you have to bring in real life into a game where a game company have sat rules to their game.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#419 - 2013-09-25 17:24:05 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
NightmareX wrote:

I don't have to know how much you play, fap or whatever to know the true story behind this. By simply following some simple logics you know gaining advantages and causing fear witch is a tactic ingame to other players by not even be at your computer is not how it supposed to be.


Well, if I'm gaining an advantage....not grief play. That was one of your necessary conditions. You've quite nicely shown that condition does not apply, therefore not griefing.

Q.E.D.

If your gaining advantages over others by not playing to get profits of it, it's grief play Blink

On paper it is, but maybe not in reality for you.

Teckos Pech wrote:
Lets take a larger quote from the grief play policy (note, Grief Play is not technically part of the EULA/ToS, but is its own separate policy):

Quote:
A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making others’ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account.

This should not be confused with standard conflict that might arise between two (or more) players, such as corporation wars. The EVE universe is a harsh universe largely driven by such conflict and notice must be taken of the fact that nonconsensual combat alone is not considered to be grief play per the above definition.

An example of grief play would be the so called "Can baiting" in starter systems. An experienced player drops a cargo container with some items and waits for a new player to take from it. The new player is flagged and promptly attacked and killed by the owner of the container. Doing the same in the systems the Blood Stained Stars epic arc takes you through is also considered grief play and will not be tolerated.


That is the entire policy. Lets take a look at the example provided: can bating of new players in starter systems. This form of grief play is where an older more experienced player tells a new player to take stuff from a jettison can and when said player does so, destroys the new players noob ship. Why does this meet the standards of grief play? Well lets run through them:

1. Attacking a brand new player in a noob ship really makes that poor new player's first day in Eve rather miserable.
2. Does the griefer profit from this? No, because the modules on a noob ship are worthless in game. They provide zero isk value and their use to older players is very, very, very low relative to other modules the older player can use.
3. I've seen griefers spend quite a bit of time doing this...well until a second older player undocks in a velator, takes from the can and when the griefer shoots him docks up and undocks in a zealot and sends him running for his momma.

Now, compare this to some schlub in null who has been playing the game since 2004. An AFK cloaky shows up in his system and he starts crying on the forums like a 12 year old. Never mind this player could:

1. Move over one system and rat, mine, etc.
2. Fleet up with buddies in PvP ships and burn through anomalies.
3. Jump clone into Empire and Run L4s until the AFK cloaker realizes he isn't stopping the acquisition of isk.
4. Set up a reaction operation to generate isk. This is a player who has been playing for 8 or 9 years, they surely have the skills and probably the wealth to do this.

There are multitude of solutions to this so called "grief play". Compared to the new guy in his noob ship who has yet to learn the harshness of Eve, we are to believe this veteran player is really suffering this much from one guy in a cloaked ship?

GMAFB.

Basicly, what you are writing is just a part of the EULA there in the same way as the afk griefing as someone does also is a part of the same EULA section there.

You have to look at the whole picture dude.


Can you try to write that again so it makes sense. And there is more there than what is in the grief policy (again, the Grief Policy is not part of the EULA). The EULA is different than the policies. The EULA is a contract that tells you how you may use the client, in a nutshell. Grief play on the other hand is in game behavior and thus not really part of the EULA.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#420 - 2013-09-25 17:28:19 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
No it isn't. You pointed this out yourself. I don't profit, then grief play, I do profit, then grief play. If I'm gaining an advantage--i.e. denying you isk, your alliance isk, and lowering your index levels, and it is part of a preparation for invasion...then there is an advantage, a profit, a gain.

But again, if you gain an advantage while you don't gain profits, it's grief play. CCP doesn't care if you do grief play and then gain some profits. It's about gaining advantages and causing fears on others at the same time as you do not profits on it.

Teckos Pech wrote:
So not grief play. Go back and read your post here and engage your brain.

It's still grief play according to CCP.

Teckos Pech wrote:
BTW, to help you out the definition of profit:


  • obtain a financial advantage or benefit, esp. from an investment.
  • "the only people to profit from the entire episode were the lawyers"

  • obtain an advantage or benefit.
  • "not all children would profit from this kind of schooling"

  • be beneficial to.
  • "it would profit us to change our plans"


The last two imply that if I get an advantage somehow, I'm profiting.

We are talking about the rules CCP have sat for EVE Online, aka the best MMO game in history. What peoples does in real life have nothing to do with what CCP does with EVE.

It's bad when you have to bring in real life into a game where a game company have sat rules to their game.


Wow, now that is a stunning display of ignorance, poor reasoning and illogic. And when is pointing to a definition of a word in English to one who is clearly a non-English speaker an example of RL? I mean that last one...just completely blinkered.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online