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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Increase PVP and combat afk cloaky camping

Author
NightmareX
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#421 - 2013-09-25 17:31:33 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Teckos Pech wrote:
Wow, now that is a stunning display of ignorance, poor reasoning and illogic. And when is pointing to a definition of a word in English to one who is clearly a non-English speaker an example of RL? I mean that last one...just completely blinkered.

Yeah yeah yeah, it's always stunning display of ignorance, poor reasoning and illogic for you when someone proves you to be wrong, but never when you do the same.

Teckos Pech wrote:
Can you try to write that again so it makes sense. And there is more there than what is in the grief policy (again, the Grief Policy is not part of the EULA). The EULA is different than the policies. The EULA is a contract that tells you how you may use the client, in a nutshell. Grief play on the other hand is in game behavior and thus not really part of the EULA.

I edited my reply after you quoted it.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#422 - 2013-09-25 17:53:45 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
No it isn't. You pointed this out yourself. I don't profit, then grief play, I do profit, then grief play. If I'm gaining an advantage--i.e. denying you isk, your alliance isk, and lowering your index levels, and it is part of a preparation for invasion...then there is an advantage, a profit, a gain.

But again, if you gain an advantage while you don't gain profits, it's grief play. CCP does care if you do grief play and don't care if you then gain some profits later. What CCPcares about is about gaining advantages and causing fears on others at the same time as you do not profits on it.

Teckos Pech wrote:
So not grief play. Go back and read your post here and engage your brain.

It's still grief play according to CCP.

Teckos Pech wrote:
BTW, to help you out the definition of profit:


  • obtain a financial advantage or benefit, esp. from an investment.
  • "the only people to profit from the entire episode were the lawyers"

  • obtain an advantage or benefit.
  • "not all children would profit from this kind of schooling"

  • be beneficial to.
  • "it would profit us to change our plans"


The last two imply that if I get an advantage somehow, I'm profiting.

We are talking about the rules CCP have sat for EVE Online, aka the best MMO game in history. What peoples does in real life have nothing to do with what CCP does with EVE.

It's bad when you have to bring in real life into a game where a game company have sat rules to their game.


I made no references to what I do in real life. Could you quote where you think I did that? Really, I'm completely at a loss here.

Is this some sort of deep philosophical thing? In real life I'm playing Eve, and if I reference that while playing Eve, I'm some how making a real life reference and therefore nullifying my argument or something? Have I become Schrödinger's cat or something?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

NightmareX
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#423 - 2013-09-25 17:56:06 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Teckos Pech wrote:
I made no references to what I do in real life. Could you quote where you think I did that? Really, I'm completely at a loss here.

Is this some sort of deep philosophical thing? In real life I'm playing Eve, and if I reference that while playing Eve, I'm some how making a real life reference and therefore nullifying my argument or something? Have I become Schrödinger's cat or something?

Teckos Pech wrote:
BTW, to help you out the definition of profit:


  • obtain a financial advantage or benefit, esp. from an investment.
  • "the only people to profit from the entire episode were the lawyers"

  • obtain an advantage or benefit.
  • "not all children would profit from this kind of schooling"

  • be beneficial to.
  • "it would profit us to change our plans"

Not clear enough?

You took a real life example into the discussion here.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#424 - 2013-09-25 18:05:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
I made no references to what I do in real life. Could you quote where you think I did that? Really, I'm completely at a loss here.

Is this some sort of deep philosophical thing? In real life I'm playing Eve, and if I reference that while playing Eve, I'm some how making a real life reference and therefore nullifying my argument or something? Have I become Schrödinger's cat or something?

Teckos Pech wrote:
BTW, to help you out the definition of profit:


  • obtain a financial advantage or benefit, esp. from an investment.
  • "the only people to profit from the entire episode were the lawyers"

  • obtain an advantage or benefit.
  • "not all children would profit from this kind of schooling"

  • be beneficial to.
  • "it would profit us to change our plans"

Not clear enough?

You took a real life example into the discussion here.


Shocked

Lol

That's hilarious.

Post modernism in Eve Online.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#425 - 2013-09-25 18:13:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Capitalist discourse and Batailleist `powerful communication' of AFK Cloaking

Teckos Pech
Department of Deconstruction, Executive Outcomes, Cloud Ring, New Eden.

1. Capitalist discourse and subdialectic nationalism of AFK Cloaking

The characteristic theme of the mechanicss of AFK Cloaking is not, in fact, materialism, but neomaterialism. However, the subject is contextualised into a theory that includes culture as a reality. In analyzying the capitalist discourse of AFK cloaking threads we can gain incites into the postcapitalist theory of AFK Cloaking.

This should not be confused 'subdialectic nationalism' that often denotes the role of the AFK cloaker or the reader of threads regarding AFK Cloaking. If Batailleist `powerful communication' holds, then these works are modernistic.

It could be said that one holds that we have to choose between Batailleist `powerful communication' and dialectic precapitalist theory for AFK cloaking. Batailleist `powerful communication' suggests that class has objective value, given that the premise of capitalist discourse is valid.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#426 - 2013-09-26 07:53:58 UTC
NightmareX, you have contradicted yourself and completely misunderstood the statements by CCP to such a level I simply cannot think of a way to respond. CCP make a point of it involving someone "devoting much of their time", but you claim they dedicate zero effort, CCP claim there must be no profit in it, you claim they are gaining advantages (kills, interfering with an enemies resources, whatever)... I do not even need to say anything, since you destroy your own argument at every turn
Streya Jormagdnir
Alexylva Paradox
#427 - 2013-09-26 08:35:49 UTC
I can already see this sort of ship being abused to all high hell in wspace. It would make hiding a fleet virtually impossible, too, and really detract from the stealth aspects of wspace pvp.

Can't say I support this. Cloaking is fine as it is IMO, particularly given how very poor cloakies tend to perform in an outright brawl as compared to dedicated combat ships.

I am also a human, straggling between the present world... and our future. I am a regulator, a coordinator, one who is meant to guide the way.

Destination Unreachable: the worst Wspace blog ever

Anthar Thebess
#428 - 2013-09-26 08:42:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
Flame up!

CCP have to be much precise - as if someone doing this then he always have some 'benefit' even for most stupid and worst action.

Lets assume :
This is a game, then using ruptures to kill new players on undock is not grief play , as my targets are random.
It gives me pleasure to watch those noobs die ( so this is my benefit ,hell this is a game and i play for fun ).
And im not baiting in the way CCP stated in the definition in grief play.
I just kill random ships - so im doing what eve is made for.

http://community.eveonline.com/support/knowledge-base/article.aspx?articleId=336
Quote:
An example of grief play would be the so called "Can baiting" in starter systems. An experienced player drops a cargo container with some items and waits for a new player to take from it. The new player is flagged and promptly attacked and killed by the owner of the container. Doing the same in the systems the Blood Stained Stars epic arc takes you through is also considered grief play and will not be tolerated.


So if killing those pity nooooobs is not a grief play then how using a cloaked char sitting 23/7 on local in someone 'home sov' cannot be considered a grief play.
He don't do nothing 95% of his time , his job is only to make angry some older noobs flying now carriers - im happy when they cannot play ( thats my benefit) .
His job is to block their ability to effectively do their activities in this system. Rat, mine, pl etc.
( i already have more than 2 accounts, so if i already pay for them, i can spare one to put one or few afk camper (s) in enemy systems)
When i finally check this account i could find someone stupid enough to try to do something in this system.
( i love those people having 2-3 hours a week to play eve. They have to undock and 'do something' )
Oh a ratting carrier, ok now lets check who i can get to kill it - damn every one is offline.
Ok maybe he will do the same next week.

So if killing newbite noobs in higsec is not a grief play - then afk camping some older nooooobs in nullsec cannot be considered a grief play also.
I have my benefit in making their play miserable ( the same way im making their game miserable when i kill their ships ).
My alt also is harmles when cloacked .
If you don't belive me check what CCP did - nothing.
So this is not issue.

Twisted
Xionyxa
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#429 - 2013-09-26 09:31:05 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Flame up!

CCP have to be much precise - as if someone doing this then he always have some 'benefit' even for most stupid and worst action.

Lets assume :
This is a game, then using ruptures to kill new players on undock is not grief play , as my targets are random.
It gives me pleasure to watch those noobs die ( so this is my benefit ,hell this is a game and i play for fun ).
And im not baiting in the way CCP stated in the definition in grief play.
I just kill random ships - so im doing what eve is made for.

http://community.eveonline.com/support/knowledge-base/article.aspx?articleId=336
Quote:
An example of grief play would be the so called "Can baiting" in starter systems. An experienced player drops a cargo container with some items and waits for a new player to take from it. The new player is flagged and promptly attacked and killed by the owner of the container. Doing the same in the systems the Blood Stained Stars epic arc takes you through is also considered grief play and will not be tolerated.


So if killing those pity nooooobs is not a grief play then how using a cloaked char sitting 23/7 on local in someone 'home sov' can be considered a grief play.
He don't do nothing 95% of his time , his job is only to make angry some older noobs flying now carriers - im happy when they cannot play ( thats my benefit) .
His job is to block their ability to effectively do their activities in this system. Rat, mine, pl etc.
( i already have more than 2 accounts, so if i already pay for them, i can spare one to put one or few afk camper (s) in enemy systems)
When i finally check this account i could find someone stupid enough to try to do something in this system.
( i love those people having 2-3 hours a week to play eve. They have to undock and 'do something' )
Oh a ratting carrier, ok now lets check who i can get to kill it - damn every one is offline.
Ok maybe he will do the same next week.

So if killing newbite noobs in higsec is not a grief play - then afk camping some older nooooobs in nullsec cannot be considered a grief play also.
I have my benefit in making their play miserable ( the same way im making their game miserable when i kill their ships ).
My alt also is harmles when cloacked .
If you don't belive me check what CCP did - nothing.
So this is not issue.

Twisted



It comes down to player intentions, if a player puts a cloaked ship/character inside a system cloaked where he/she knows he is red, for ***** and giggles only, then it's griefing (People do this).

If however he/she does a hot drop in that system, then it's no longer griefing, it's pvp.

The only way to see if a player may do a hot drop is to look at their killboards (then again it could just be a fresh hot drop alt).

On purely cost/benefit basis (CCP profits/subscription numbers) both afk cloaking (the long term 23/7 stuff, not the cloak to go make a coffee stuff) and can griefing newbies in high sec should go, they make a very few players happy by upsetting a large number of players, both have no doubt costed EvE online more than a few subscriptions.
Anthar Thebess
#430 - 2013-09-26 09:46:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
Xionyxa wrote:

It comes down to player intentions, if a player puts a cloaked ship/character inside a system cloaked where he/she knows he is red, for ***** and giggles only, then it's griefing (People do this).

If however he/she does a hot drop in that system, then it's no longer griefing, it's pvp.

The only way to see if a player may do a hot drop is to look at their killboards (then again it could just be a fresh hot drop alt).

On purely cost/benefit basis (CCP profits/subscription numbers) both afk cloaking (the long term 23/7 stuff, not the cloak to go make a coffee stuff) and can griefing newbies in high sec should go, they make a very few players happy by upsetting a large number of players, both have no doubt costed EvE online more than a few subscriptions.


I am bad at hot dropping, but im still trying to work on it.
I relay do!
When i finally find a proper anomaly where the guy is murdering innocent pirate ships - he is long gone.
But hell im not a AFK camper, check my killboard - i managed to hot drop something in this system 3 months ago.
And im hunting here 23/7.


And agree - ccp will do nothing about this , or no one from ccp will ever read this topic ;)
So Flame on!
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#431 - 2013-09-26 09:55:46 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
And agree - ccp will do nothing about this , or no one from ccp will ever read this topic ;)
So Flame on!


Except to lock it indefinitely. ShockedTwisted
Xionyxa
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#432 - 2013-09-26 10:07:01 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
And agree - ccp will do nothing about this , or no one from ccp will ever read this topic ;)
So Flame on!


Except to lock it indefinitely. ShockedTwisted



CCP devs are like afk cloakers on this, they are there, they may or may not be watching, but you can't see them and they may do something, but then again, they may not either.
Anthar Thebess
#433 - 2013-09-26 11:06:47 UTC
Xionyxa wrote:

CCP devs are like afk cloakers on this, they are there, they may or may not be watching, but you can't see them and they may do something, but then again, they may not either.


This kind of threads are on this forum for years.
No change on server was ever made.
Where those devs got so much practice in AFK watching those kind of threads. Lol

Be serious.
This is issue, like ganking people in higsec ( yes i also did/do this) and there is no response from CCP.

NPC farmers come and go, player farmers usually stay a bit longer - so they give better income for CCP in longer term.
Additionally they provide better material sink for all those bad PVE people trying to ruin eve economy in theirs ratting/mining ships.
Shame on you people!
Go and do something good - undock and go kill someone ( but please try to choose uninsured ships - we already have way to much isk flowing into the system).
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#434 - 2013-09-26 14:34:26 UTC
Storm Airkian wrote:
You could simply recloak without giving out your position or ship or anything... But to do that u need to PLAY THE GAME... not abuse broken mechanics

This is slightly out of context by itself.
It was directed at Maximus Aerelius, in an exchange.

It demonstrates a key point, however, that many PvE players are oblivious to the fact that they are not playing a full game, when they have parts of it handed to them for free.

When you use local as intel, you are not playing the game, you are simply WATCHING the game.
You became a spectator.

Now, you can react to something you saw, even though you made no effort to generate this action inspiring information.
You can ALSO react to the listing of a hostile pilot in local, even though they did nothing to inspire that information.

Until you question the source of this information, it seems many have decided to put in effort to make it more effective, rather than ask to have the ability to earn the intel in the first place.

Balance exists.
It is not the responsibility of a cloaked pilot if someone watching a chat channel becomes frightened by something they see there.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#435 - 2013-09-26 14:58:30 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Flame up!

CCP have to be much precise - as if someone doing this then he always have some 'benefit' even for most stupid and worst action.

Lets assume :
This is a game, then using ruptures to kill new players on undock is not grief play , as my targets are random.
It gives me pleasure to watch those noobs die ( so this is my benefit ,hell this is a game and i play for fun ).
And im not baiting in the way CCP stated in the definition in grief play.
I just kill random ships - so im doing what eve is made for.

http://community.eveonline.com/support/knowledge-base/article.aspx?articleId=336
Quote:
An example of grief play would be the so called "Can baiting" in starter systems. An experienced player drops a cargo container with some items and waits for a new player to take from it. The new player is flagged and promptly attacked and killed by the owner of the container. Doing the same in the systems the Blood Stained Stars epic arc takes you through is also considered grief play and will not be tolerated.


So if killing those pity nooooobs is not a grief play then how using a cloaked char sitting 23/7 on local in someone 'home sov' cannot be considered a grief play.
He don't do nothing 95% of his time , his job is only to make angry some older noobs flying now carriers - im happy when they cannot play ( thats my benefit) .
His job is to block their ability to effectively do their activities in this system. Rat, mine, pl etc.
( i already have more than 2 accounts, so if i already pay for them, i can spare one to put one or few afk camper (s) in enemy systems)
When i finally check this account i could find someone stupid enough to try to do something in this system.
( i love those people having 2-3 hours a week to play eve. They have to undock and 'do something' )
Oh a ratting carrier, ok now lets check who i can get to kill it - damn every one is offline.
Ok maybe he will do the same next week.

So if killing newbite noobs in higsec is not a grief play - then afk camping some older nooooobs in nullsec cannot be considered a grief play also.
I have my benefit in making their play miserable ( the same way im making their game miserable when i kill their ships ).
My alt also is harmles when cloacked .
If you don't belive me check what CCP did - nothing.
So this is not issue.

Twisted


You can kill noobs, you just can't do it via can baiting in a starter system. The former is not grief play, the latter is. CCP has said so specifically in regards to the latter.

And so long as there is gain--aka profit--form an action, then it cannot be grief play by definition.

This reminds me of a time in an industrial organization class. The prof. asked to show something regarding oligopolies. I gave the answer, he then asked, how we know it is always positive. I replied, "Uhhh, what? Its a variance, the variance is always positive." That stopped him. He looked at the work on the board and said, "Huh, yeah." He had a proof all worked out using Jensen's inequality. My proof was more elegant though.

Is AFK cloaking grief play?

No.

Proof: By definition.
Q.E.D.

Now, can we move along?

How about we discuss whether or not the current local mechanic is an exploit. After all the person already in system gets a distinct and absolute advantage over an entrant. The current resident will see the entrant appear in local well before the entrant even loads grid. The resident does nothing to gain this advantage and all residents everywhere exploit this to their advantage.

If anything, using local as intel is more of an "exploit" than AFK cloaking every will be. Well, if you use logic and reason that is. If you want to be an emotional tard crying to CCP, no you wont ever be able to admit this.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#436 - 2013-09-26 16:54:01 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
How about we discuss whether or not the current local mechanic is an exploit. After all the person already in system gets a distinct and absolute advantage over an entrant. The current resident will see the entrant appear in local well before the entrant even loads grid. The resident does nothing to gain this advantage and all residents everywhere exploit this to their advantage.

If anything, using local as intel is more of an "exploit" than AFK cloaking every will be. Well, if you use logic and reason that is. If you want to be an emotional tard crying to CCP, no you wont ever be able to admit this.

Obviously it is an exploit.

It is an effort free way of enhancing the ISK gains of pilots, to the point where they are not playing a complete version of the game.
I specify these aspects:

With local:
1. They do not contact friends or allies for support as often
2. They do not fit ships to overcome hostiles, by force or evasion, as often
3. They become accustomed to the break point it provides, like an addiction. Said break point being the period where a hostile enters, and local advises this information which allows evasion.
3b. The addictive qualities of this effect are demonstrated by the unwillingness to operate without it's aid. Many players seem willing to remain inactive rather than explore alternative options to counter the play tactics being presented.

This is clearly harmful to gameplay, and a means to substitute an effort based alternative to local is clearly needed.
Any free option being available to use as a defense is obviously going to be overused / exploited, as is the case here.