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Crime & Punishment

 
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Miner Bumping, Ganking and the activities of James 315 and the New Order of Highsec.

First post
Author
Laurianne Leone
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2013-08-05 23:55:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Laurianne Leone
Leto Thule wrote:


Please. CONCORD podding in next patch.


You probably don't realise it right now, but if such a carebear buff was introduced it would only increase the amount of ganking going on. The whole point of the new order is to spark player to player interactions amongst those who are normally afk and everyone else. Ideally getting them involved in the grand game of eve, rather than just semi-npcing it.

Trying to avoid other players in your carebear dreams for a massively single player online game by calling for god, in the form of CCP, to do your fighting for you will only achieve a more violent reaction from eve players and as a direct consequence more exhumer wrecks in highsec belts, if 3% small hybrid rof Implants have to increase in price by a million or two, that's a price worth paying.

Money ain't got no owners, only spenders RIP Omar Little 

Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#142 - 2013-08-06 13:28:18 UTC
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
I'm all for CONCORD podding gankers.. and sleepers podding wh residents.. Sansha podding incursion runners.. Serpentis .. Blood Raiders..

How hysterical would it be to have a miner with a 1.5bil isk pod floating in a belt, AFK of course, get podded by the belt rats. Tears would flow like rain from the sky.



Actually, I think thats a great idea.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment

Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#143 - 2013-08-06 13:51:34 UTC
Pfeils Goodman wrote:
Unlike a minivan race, I think everyone wants to see a hisec full of compliant, at-keyboard miners.

And when it comes to working towards the above, I think the New Order fits your posted definition of elite to a T. If they are not the best, who is better?

Alas it seems we shall have to agree to disagree. I've had fun talking about this with you. You're a stand-up guy.



I dont care if miners are AFK.

Please, tell me how being at their keyboard affects anything? Do they manually control the mining laser? (Maybe not a bad idea for the next update, IMO... sorta like hacking... but I digress..)

Agree to disagree is fine by me, because Ill never think ganking something that does not shoot back is epic or elite. Oh, you got a miner, wow. That was tough.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment

Laurianne Leone
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#144 - 2013-08-06 21:04:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Laurianne Leone
Leto Thule wrote:
Pfeils Goodman wrote:
Unlike a minivan race, I think everyone wants to see a hisec full of compliant, at-keyboard miners.

And when it comes to working towards the above, I think the New Order fits your posted definition of elite to a T. If they are not the best, who is better?

Alas it seems we shall have to agree to disagree. I've had fun talking about this with you. You're a stand-up guy.



I dont care if miners are AFK.

Please, tell me how being at their keyboard affects anything? Do they manually control the mining laser? (Maybe not a bad idea for the next update, IMO... sorta like hacking... but I digress..)

Agree to disagree is fine by me, because Ill never think ganking something that does not shoot back is epic or elite. Oh, you got a miner, wow. That was tough.




Pfeils Goodman wrote:
...

They do PVP.
They are elite.
They do it for you.


(I love you Pfeils Goodman)

If they changed the mining system to be more like the new hacking stuff, ie a minigame to randomly break lose chunks of ore/ice and have to click to suck them up, that would be an improvement, it would certainly reduce the number of bots and bot aspirants by a huge number (at least from mining ice and ore).

But why is it a problem to afk? how does it affect other players? Okay here is a short illustrated explanation:

BobbiBear comes into the Ice anomaly, sets herself up nice, with her alts and boosting orca then gets her lasers going, she then heads off out to the shops for 3/4 of an hour.

LauriPirate happens to come across this anomaly, in a purely rational economic transaction, scans BobbiBear's Macs and finds two of them have some form of faction mod. Mining op dies a fiery death, LauriPirate and her hauler alt scoop some nice loot and go sell it in Jita.

BobbiBear comes back from the shop, finds all her Macs have been either nuked & podded or bumped out of the belt and to add insult to injury her Orca has been ganked by a passing Goonwaffe whaling fleet. She immediately logs on the forums and bleats about how unfair things are, why did anyone pick on her? Isnt is a Eula violation to bump/gank, curses James 315, curses :Goons:, now she is going to have to cancel her 4 subs, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum.

DEVNerfbatsShocked comes along reads 20-30 threads filled with such similar complaints all demanding action, because the 'player' victim has no intention of doing anything at all to protect themselves yet feel noisily entitled to some special protection from the rest of eve, and he then has to 'think of the subs' TM.
He decides to buff Barge EHP so that a petty little nuisance like LauriPirate cannot solo gank untanked Exhumers & barges in most circumstances. 'God' in the Person of DEVNerfbatsShocked has from his Olympian Terrace made a unilateral change to the rules of engagement for all Eve players.

This is a cycle that has repeated itself several times now with a large number of bops from the nerfbat to gankers and other forms of high sec piracy and it has consequences.
The rise of the New Order, and prior to that Hulkageddon, Burn Jita, MiniLuv and so on, each a violent reaction to the attempted removal of risk for the entitled AFKers.

In short.

Those careless fools who are Afking 10s of Billions of isk through high sec in Charon shaped Pinata, Macs/Hulks/Skiffs/20-40m TII salvage along with any mods that drop just idling in belts whilst doing something more interesting instead of checking local, idiots autopiloting shuttles with High Grade Snake Clones, they get what comes to them, the special pleading for protection for them is insulting to all actual players, they deserve to get ganked.

Money ain't got no owners, only spenders RIP Omar Little 

Omar Alharazaad
Spectrum Reborn
#145 - 2013-08-06 21:52:06 UTC
I keep seeing the words "helpless" and "defenseless" being thrown around on these threads and to be honest it's starting to get tiresome. There's a massive difference between being defenseless and choosing to do nothing to defend yourself.

Going AFK anywhere in space (aside from cloaked at a safe spot) is an incredibly stupid thing to do, period. By doing so you are effectively stating that you don't care whether or not somebody toasts your ship, and why yes, I would LOVE a trip back to my home station.... those implants? Don't mind them, they were starting to itch anyways. Shocked

I am a carebear, former miner, and current industrialist. When I started EVE it was with a couple friends and we generally played together. When we mined two of us would mine, one would haul, and the other three.... would stand guard in combat ships. Those guys are long gone, but the point is that if you value your ship and it's cargo it only makes good sense to protect that investment.

That being said, there are many things you can do to "fly safe" while mining.
#1. Don't be AFK
#2. Tank that barge/exhumer... you love it, why not protect it?
#3. Watch local, check out who's who. Someone flashy in system, maybe you should raise your alert level a couple notches.
#4. If you can, bring some friends. More eyes in the sky may catch something you miss, also sometimes just a show of force can deter those looking for easy pickings. (Seriously, if you can muster a mining op with orcas, haulers, and many barges, why can't you manage to also provide a combat escort?)
#5. DSCAN! If a bunch of commonly used ganking vessels suddenly show up on scan, you might wanna pack it up and leave.

And finally, get creative... look at the tactics being used and confer with your friends about ideas as to how to thwart them. No tactic is foolproof, it's just a matter of putting the time and mental energy into figuring a way to counter it.
I know alot of this has already been said, over and over, even by those who are doing the ganking... but maybe a miner here or there might stop whinging long enough to read and think. Of course I'm probably wrong.

As far as the New Order goes, personally I find what they're doing to be quite entertaining. They're doing what they can to keep hisec from becoming too boring, and maybe, just maybe they'll rattle the cage just hard enough to get those bears to coordinate and use their claws.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

embrel
BamBam Inc.
#146 - 2013-08-07 12:29:43 UTC  |  Edited by: embrel
Omar Alharazaad wrote:

I am a carebear, former miner, and current industrialist. When I started EVE it was with a couple friends and we generally played together. When we mined two of us would mine, one would haul, and the other three.... would stand guard in combat ships. Those guys are long gone


there are things even more boring than mining... guarding miners. no wonder they are long gone.

non-AFK mining to me seems like a very fast route into insanity.

I'd cry far more if I had to actually be there mining (in high-sec) than about the occasional loss of a barge (but well, I don't have a billion in implants to lose anyway).
Pfeils Goodman
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#147 - 2013-08-07 12:50:44 UTC
Never mind the fact that the mining ships that get dispatched are outlaws. Let's forget that for the time being.

When I act on behalf of the New Order I certainly don't feel like I am attacking defenseless pilots. While there are some New Order enforcements that involve 4 and 5 agent catalysts, they are the exception and not the norm. The New Order tends to use 1 and 2 ship engagements so that their agents can cover the most space at the same time.

When I am out inspecting licenses it is usually just me and my good friend, philantropist and Amarr aristocrat, Gaylord Fappington. Gaylord and I field a pair of T2 catalysts, that's all. We don't have a scout, we can't passive scan, and normally before a mining barge is dispatched, it sits target locked by a catalyst for upwards of a minute while we get into position. Simply paying attention would allow a foolproof defense.

And if that were not enough, it would be extremely easy to tank a Mackinaw to the point where it can simply laugh at the damage our two ships are capable of. Don't even talk to me about a Skiff. Add to that mining in a 0.7 system and there would be little we could do to enforce the code.

If the mechanics of Eve prevented miners from doing the above and ensured our ability to dispatch of their ships against any actions they could take, then you could sell me on the notion that they are defenseless. In reality they choose not to defend themselves. They don't want to stay at their keyboards to watch for catalysts locking them because mining is boring. They do not want to fit a two-catalyst-proof tank because it would impact their yield. Some don't even want to mine in 0.7 and above systems because the asteroids last fewer cycles . . .

I know there are people in Eve who get accused of obtaining their jollies by picking on the helpless. I feel I have outlined why I will never see miners as being helpless under the current game mechanics.

The New Order are out there doing good work. Until I start seeing 5 and 6 catalyst killmails from them on a regular basis, I'll never be able to see the illegal miners as defenseless.
Omar Alharazaad
Spectrum Reborn
#148 - 2013-08-07 17:21:57 UTC
embrel wrote:
Omar Alharazaad wrote:

I am a carebear, former miner, and current industrialist. When I started EVE it was with a couple friends and we generally played together. When we mined two of us would mine, one would haul, and the other three.... would stand guard in combat ships. Those guys are long gone


there are things even more boring than mining... guarding miners. no wonder they are long gone.

non-AFK mining to me seems like a very fast route into insanity.

I'd cry far more if I had to actually be there mining (in high-sec) than about the occasional loss of a barge (but well, I don't have a billion in implants to lose anyway).



Indeed. The whole soul-crushing boredom thing is why I try to mine as little as possible anymore. Every time I lock onto a rock it starts whispering to me to kill my own kind, just to save them from this living hell...

Guarding miners is just as boring, really, but generally the guards should be getting compensated.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#149 - 2013-08-07 19:32:46 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
The whole soul-crushing boredom thing is why I try to mine as little as possible anymore. Every time I lock onto a rock it starts whispering to me to kill my own kind, just to save them from this living hell...


That exact thing happened to me; was ready to unsub even. Then I found the New Order, and did just what the voices in my head had been telling me to do. My therapist says I'm doing much better now.

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."

Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#150 - 2013-08-07 20:59:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Plastic Psycho
Let us, for a moment, set aside the New Order and The Code.

What do I, as a ganker, bring to the game? This question was asked, in all seriousness, but one of my victims. Here is my answer (slightly paraphrased):

"I bring risk. Adrenaline. Uncertainty. I bring a change from the "same 'ol same ol.'" I bring *excitement* to *your* game. Didn't your heart beat just a bit faster as you tried to bolt from under my guns? Aren't you even now breathing a bit faster, palms maybe a bit sweaty as you rage at me? Perhaps you're planning revenge... Feels good, that fantasy of seeing me burn under your guns, doesn't it?

"That bounty you just put on me? Anticipating teh EVE-mail meesage when you see I've died in a fire, aren't you? Maybe you're rubbing your hands together in anticipatino of those KRs being put to use by some mercenary on your behalf..? Feels GOOD, doesn't it? THAT is what I bring to the game - what I've brought to YOUR game. And, at the very least, you're no longer staring at rocks melting - you're interacting with another human being in EVE. You're enageged ni actually playing the game!

"Oh, and you're welcome. :)"


So, there you go. For whatever reason I choose to gank, I am quite aware that I'm contributing to the net EVE experience. It's not for nothing - all you need do is be aware of what I (we) bring.

Besides... Hell, someone has to be the bad guy... Why not me? Blink


Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
The whole soul-crushing boredom thing is why I try to mine as little as possible anymore. Every time I lock onto a rock it starts whispering to me to kill my own kind, just to save them from this living hell...


That exact thing happened to me; was ready to unsub even. Then I found the New Order, and did just what the voices in my head had been telling me to do. My therapist says I'm doing much better now.

I *DID* un-sub. For almost three years. Mining was that crushing.
Now, my mining alt - which used to be my main - sits mostly dis-used and collecting a pension. A couple of my secondary alts have become Mains in his place.
Occultus Sapientia
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#151 - 2013-08-07 21:08:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Occultus Sapientia
Confirming that I nearly crushed my owner's soul with mining.
Would've gotten away with it, too...No, wait. I *did* get away with it. Took him years to recover. Twisted
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#152 - 2013-08-08 14:02:48 UTC
Laurianne Leone wrote:
Leto Thule wrote:
Pfeils Goodman wrote:
Unlike a minivan race, I think everyone wants to see a hisec full of compliant, at-keyboard miners.

And when it comes to working towards the above, I think the New Order fits your posted definition of elite to a T. If they are not the best, who is better?

Alas it seems we shall have to agree to disagree. I've had fun talking about this with you. You're a stand-up guy.



I dont care if miners are AFK.

Please, tell me how being at their keyboard affects anything? Do they manually control the mining laser? (Maybe not a bad idea for the next update, IMO... sorta like hacking... but I digress..)

Agree to disagree is fine by me, because Ill never think ganking something that does not shoot back is epic or elite. Oh, you got a miner, wow. That was tough.




Pfeils Goodman wrote:
...

They do PVP.
They are elite.
They do it for you.


(I love you Pfeils Goodman)

If they changed the mining system to be more like the new hacking stuff, ie a minigame to randomly break lose chunks of ore/ice and have to click to suck them up, that would be an improvement, it would certainly reduce the number of bots and bot aspirants by a huge number (at least from mining ice and ore).

But why is it a problem to afk? how does it affect other players? Okay here is a short illustrated explanation:

BobbiBear comes into the Ice anomaly, sets herself up nice, with her alts and boosting orca then gets her lasers going, she then heads off out to the shops for 3/4 of an hour.

LauriPirate happens to come across this anomaly, in a purely rational economic transaction, scans BobbiBear's Macs and finds two of them have some form of faction mod. Mining op dies a fiery death, LauriPirate and her hauler alt scoop some nice loot and go sell it in Jita.

BobbiBear comes back from the shop, finds all her Macs have been either nuked & podded or bumped out of the belt and to add insult to injury her Orca has been ganked by a passing Goonwaffe whaling fleet. She immediately logs on the forums and bleats about how unfair things are, why did anyone pick on her? Isnt is a Eula violation to bump/gank, curses James 315, curses :Goons:, now she is going to have to cancel her 4 subs, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum.

DEVNerfbatsShocked comes along reads 20-30 threads filled with such similar complaints all demanding action, because the 'player' victim has no intention of doing anything at all to protect themselves yet feel noisily entitled to some special protection from the rest of eve, and he then has to 'think of the subs' TM.
He decides to buff Barge EHP so that a petty little nuisance like LauriPirate cannot solo gank untanked Exhumers & barges in most circumstances. 'God' in the Person of DEVNerfbatsShocked has from his Olympian Terrace made a unilateral change to the rules of engagement for all Eve players.

This is a cycle that has repeated itself several times now with a large number of bops from the nerfbat to gankers and other forms of high sec piracy and it has consequences.
The rise of the New Order, and prior to that Hulkageddon, Burn Jita, MiniLuv and so on, each a violent reaction to the attempted removal of risk for the entitled AFKers.

In short.

Those careless fools who are Afking 10s of Billions of isk through high sec in Charon shaped Pinata, Macs/Hulks/Skiffs/20-40m TII salvage along with any mods that drop just idling in belts whilst doing something more interesting instead of checking local, idiots autopiloting shuttles with High Grade Snake Clones, they get what comes to them, the special pleading for protection for them is insulting to all actual players, they deserve to get ganked.


Lol.. I love it.

Im not beyond admitting error. I suppose I was just listening to the one sided story of the desperate miners. I especially agree about the autopiloting... I had a rather silly error myself a few months ago, using autopilot while wardecced. (Yeah, I know.) Taught me a valuable lesson though. I wasnt AFK, just too n00bish to not know that AP is just a bad idea.

Ill just say this, you guys make much more sense when you explain things rather than yammer on about the code or whatnot. Highlighting cause/effect makes much more sense (to me) than just killing off miners in the name of James (who i still think is a douche), but now I get where your coming from.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment

Omar Alharazaad
Spectrum Reborn
#153 - 2013-08-08 14:13:02 UTC
The trick is to look past all the RP Propaganda. Yeah, it's kinda hard to swallow, but once you see past that, well these guys kinda have a point. OMFG, I'm a carebear and I'm agreeing with these guys... k, so yeah, I'm training rockets 5... no reason. Seriously, it's better to be involved in evolution than to be a victim of it. If incoherent, I blame the beer. Yeah, that's it.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#154 - 2013-08-08 16:40:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Leto Thule wrote:

Ill just say this, you guys make much more sense when you explain things rather than yammer on about the code or whatnot. Highlighting cause/effect makes much more sense (to me) than just killing off miners in the name of James (who i still think is a douche), but now I get where your coming from.
The RP and zealotry are much more effective at provoking angry miners into providing hilarious chat logs than cause and effect.Lol

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Laurianne Leone
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#155 - 2013-08-08 20:15:50 UTC
Leto Thule wrote:
Lauri wrote:
stuff


Lol.. I love it.

Im not beyond admitting error. I suppose I was just listening to the one sided story of the desperate miners. I especially agree about the autopiloting... I had a rather silly error myself a few months ago, using autopilot while wardecced. (Yeah, I know.) Taught me a valuable lesson though. I wasnt AFK, just too n00bish to not know that AP is just a bad idea.

Ill just say this, you guys make much more sense when you explain things rather than yammer on about the code or whatnot. Highlighting cause/effect makes much more sense (to me) than just killing off miners in the name of James (who i still think is a douche), but now I get where your coming from.


Anyone who can admit they are wrong has a fan in me. I'm always wrong about something and it is nice when I get to see things from another perspective and just get that oh god I'm totally wrong feelingShocked means I just learned somethingIdea.

Anyway I'll just need that 10m isk for your mining permit now, either that or get yourself in a cat and get punishing code violators, you know you want to Blink

Your thoughts on James, that's probably due to just coming across him 'in character' in the game environment with your normal eve persona, and not seeing his, admittedly enormous, posts on high sec nerfs and so on, have a look under the links section in Minerbumping.com, there's some in depth thinking on these issues from the Saviour himself.

Money ain't got no owners, only spenders RIP Omar Little 

Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#156 - 2013-08-09 13:19:17 UTC
Laurianne Leone wrote:
Leto Thule wrote:
Lauri wrote:
stuff


Lol.. I love it.

Im not beyond admitting error. I suppose I was just listening to the one sided story of the desperate miners. I especially agree about the autopiloting... I had a rather silly error myself a few months ago, using autopilot while wardecced. (Yeah, I know.) Taught me a valuable lesson though. I wasnt AFK, just too n00bish to not know that AP is just a bad idea.

Ill just say this, you guys make much more sense when you explain things rather than yammer on about the code or whatnot. Highlighting cause/effect makes much more sense (to me) than just killing off miners in the name of James (who i still think is a douche), but now I get where your coming from.


Anyone who can admit they are wrong has a fan in me. I'm always wrong about something and it is nice when I get to see things from another perspective and just get that oh god I'm totally wrong feelingShocked means I just learned somethingIdea.

Anyway I'll just need that 10m isk for your mining permit now, either that or get yourself in a cat and get punishing code violators, you know you want to Blink

Your thoughts on James, that's probably due to just coming across him 'in character' in the game environment with your normal eve persona, and not seeing his, admittedly enormous, posts on high sec nerfs and so on, have a look under the links section in Minerbumping.com, there's some in depth thinking on these issues from the Saviour himself.


Lol... im not a miner so I wont be needing a permit. Next time im in highsec in a cormy ill look ya up though XD

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment

CptSusana Andreevna Ivanova
#157 - 2013-08-10 21:13:15 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
loyalanon wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
loyalanon wrote:
i just lol at new order.

they are full of rookies, terrible gankers

Their killboard says otherwise, so does the amount of hate mail they receive.


On a player to player killboard comparison, i would be better solo then there top 5 put together.

That'll be because 90% of your kills are in lowsec, where you don't have to avoid Concord, the Faction Navy or wait out GCCs in station. Highsec is a different kettle of fish, go and try it.


Carefull How u say that ur Avoiding Concord. As avoiding concord is illegitimate and can/will get u banned
Yi-Ming Gren
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#158 - 2013-09-04 02:56:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Yi-Ming Gren
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
You, sir, are a model other miners should emulate.

You are playing EVE, not ISK Progressquest.

If your competition are causing you trouble, sit next to them in a Skiff and tell the Order you'll provide warpins.


How? been trying to for a while, even posted in your forums asking the same question. Send me a mail or eve mail of a contact window, the AFK miners and muti-boxers in my area are getting out of hand I am training up a ganker of my own, but it's far from ready.

Pfeils Goodman & Laurianne Leone, love your posts in this thread, your patience and explanation on how afk (botting) can kill a game on outstanding.
Ange Noire
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#159 - 2013-09-04 09:49:54 UTC
Ganking an unarmed mining barge. how it is epic or less a carebear way to play ?

Actually, a Ret+T2 modules worth around 50M, i do four time that with my afk miner alt by day. so well i loose a Ret once a Week, and so what ? I've allways one or two ready in station. As i have BP for Ret+modules, it's even less than 50M for me.

I rather loose a ship than giving anything to that guys, i follow my own rules. I use Teamviewer so i mine afk all day, even on my smartphone, at work, while shopping, when i do sport ! that's funny.

i'm AFK yeah, it's cool and i pay my fee to CCP to play the game the way i want.

So James 315, his mate, their code, they can go to hell, i really don't care about them !
Lady Areola Fappington
#160 - 2013-09-04 10:21:26 UTC
Ange Noire wrote:
Ganking an unarmed mining barge. how it is epic or less a carebear way to play ?

Actually, a Ret+T2 modules worth around 50M, i do four time that with my afk miner alt by day. so well i loose a Ret once a Week, and so what ? I've allways one or two ready in station. As i have BP for Ret+modules, it's even less than 50M for me.

I rather loose a ship than giving anything to that guys, i follow my own rules. I use Teamviewer so i mine afk all day, even on my smartphone, at work, while shopping, when i do sport ! that's funny.

i'm AFK yeah, it's cool and i pay my fee to CCP to play the game the way i want.

So James 315, his mate, their code, they can go to hell, i really don't care about them !



Ahh, the ol' "minerals I mine are free" argument. Gotta love it!

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide