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Dev blog: Hacking in Odyssey

First post First post
Author
Jin Rot'hani
Jin-Tonic
#181 - 2013-05-14 11:20:27 UTC
i wasn't referring to the bugs that require more clicks to hack a node but the pure amount of dots you have to click to even reach something. Most dots just lead to the next dot and nothing else, thats what "hurts" most and is no fun either. but i'll wait till there is a playable version before i make further comments on the current alpha version.
Inara Brey
Intron
#182 - 2013-05-14 11:37:30 UTC
I would like to direct the nice Devs to the classic game Paradroid. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradroid

The mini-game within Paradroid of "linking" onto a robots to control is epic fun. You could learn some from it's thematic and pacing...

Given how the EVE universe is populated by countless drones, it would be a nice "next step" for hacking to be more then just subsystems, but instead a full blow infiltration directed at the automation of ships/POS/etc.

Naturally, I'm talking out of my *ss, these aren't even new idea, etc ... :)

Gary Bell
Herp Inc.dot
Darwinism.
#183 - 2013-05-14 11:41:31 UTC
Still waiting on those specifics on wormholes and the changes to them..?
Rek Seven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#184 - 2013-05-14 11:53:25 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Rek Seven, it's not a lack of inspiration but a lack of resources. I do ultimately agree that it would be nice to have different and thematically appropriate ways of 'doing' archaeology.


Ah okay, if its a resource issue then there isn't much you can do about it... I hope that you consider differentiating hacking and analyzing in the future though.
Ishina Fel
CaeIum Incognitum
#185 - 2013-05-14 11:55:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishina Fel
I would like to add my vote to the topic of differentiating archaeology a little more. If not in Odyssey due to lack of dev resources (always an understandable issue), then please shortly after.

I'm not trying to be ungrateful - much to the contrary, in fact. This devblog has me grinning a mile wide, and I feel this incredibly enriches the EVE universe and will touch long-time players and newbies alike when they randomly decide to poke at this relatively obscure profession and suddenly gape in surprise at something they never expected to see. Sometimes it's not the prominently placed mainstream content that demonstrates the level of polish of a game, but rather the little systems on the side, especially if they received a little more attention than one would expect - after all, game companies are usually focusing almost exclusively on content for as broad a mass of players as possible, because of the speed with which these players consume content.

That's why I believe hacking and archaeology should be differentiated by more than just the skin of the graphics and sounds. Because they deserve to be different, and because it would enrich the EVE universe and positively surprise players even more.

Although it would be awesome, it doesn't have to be radically different - if you could replace for example the the act of combating coares with the act of repairing cores (after all, you are trying to revive a millenia-old mechanism) by something like... having to find the missing parts on the grid, instead of finding attack and defense boosts. Though there would still be hazards to exploring the grid, like accidentally triggering something that cuts an existing connection on the grid, forcing you to work around it. And then having to match the pieces to the right cores, in a puzzle-esque manner.

That way you would't have to re-invent the wheel, but instead could achieve a totally different feel (especially the reconstruct vs. hack/destroy aspect being responsible for that).
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#186 - 2013-05-14 12:06:33 UTC
Kor'el Izia wrote:
Nice devblog +1 for more immersion. Regarding gameplay, set the timer on the cargo in space to regular jetcan timer(1-2h). You can still scatter them if you like so that having more players is an option but atleast this won't infuriate every would be explorer out there when their loot vanishes.


This.

I like the idea of the minigame to actually do the hacking. I Love the idea of adding hacking to more things like POSs or Gates or structures or stations or....

I can even agree with the spewing contents out into space on success. But I don't like that they have a short lifespan. Nothing else jetted into space has a short lifespan, why should the rewards for hacking have such? It's not consistent with the Eve game mechanics and is just a silly way to penalize solo players for the sake of being difficult.

If you blow up a ship, the wreck is there for over an hour to loot, salvage, etc. Blow up a pod and the corpse hangs around.

But the rewards for hacking reminds me of the second girl in this commercial: I got you a dollar!

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.

Sylvia Nardieu
Super Serious Fight Club
#187 - 2013-05-14 12:10:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Sylvia Nardieu
I like the fact that you're changing the passive and boring waiting for dice to roll to something that requires interaction.
Even if that interaction isn't all that complex at the moment I'm sure that with further development it can become a source of very rewarding game-play both in terms of content (variations between archeology and hacking) and final rewards.

My only issue with the current iteration of the system is the fact that jettisoned containers are going to despawn soon after being created. Like many others, I'd like to ask you to reconsider this decision. I think that having cans spread around the area should be enough as it would increase the time required to scoop them, hence increasing the risk of getting killed and decreasing the holy grail of isk/hour efficiency.

Archeology/Hacking (Radar/Mag) sites, even in lowsec are hardly worth group effort atm (wouldn't know about nullsec). It takes time to probe systems down and then to do the sites while being much riskier then any comparable pve activity in highsec. While changes to probing system and new modules coupled with removal of rats and introduction of mini-game has the potential to speed up this kind of activity, I'm not sure that the difference will be dramatic (killing rats was never a big issue really).

Also I might have missed that and I apologise if I did, but what will happen with ladar sites? Currently they are a mixture of combat/hacking/arch and gravimetrics. How will that be changed in Odyssey (if at all).

Have you at CCP considered moving analysers and hacking tools to high slots? I feel it would make sense from gameplay point of view, considering removal of rats from sites.

Finally (and only remotely related to the topic) please make an industrial/explo tech 3 ship.
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#188 - 2013-05-14 12:37:56 UTC
Here's an idea how to avoid loot piñata and twitch clicking while promoting cooperation for hacking and archaeology for maximum profits:


  • Adjust the hacking game that a single player can only get a fraction of the loot with the hacking resources available from one ship.
  • Allow another player to support a hack with their own ship, they activate the hack module, which adds virus resources to the player doing the actual hacking.
  • With more resources, the player can hack deeper into the system and unlock more loot caches.
  • Loot appears normally in the targeted structure as cargo.
  • This may make hacking very easy with a lot of people doing a concerted hack effort as the virus resources pile up, but the maximum loot is limited, so the profits per player peaks at a pre-planned, balanced point.
Kip Troger
System lords Collective
#189 - 2013-05-14 12:52:58 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
CCP Bayesian wrote:

require more than one person to get full benefit from.

Here in lyes the biggest issue, just because one is not flying in a fleet does not mean there is not mean they are not interacting with other players.
With the new system player skill and a bit of luck will play a big role, do not dampen that by arbitrarily making it require a small gang. As an explorer you already have to deal with other explorers, pirates, roaming gangs, and then once you get loot you must be able to sell it on the market against all those who you have had to compete with just to get your loot.

I also foresee a new complaint coming to F&I about a cloaky ship waiting at Data and Relic sites in high sec and de cloaking once the loot is jettisoned then stealing it.


There is nothing stopping people running these things solo still, we want to encourage, not force some cooperation.

If you like suspect flags stealing people's scattered containers sounds like a good way to get one. ;)



CCP Bayesian,

I think the way most capsuleers see this technique is a "forced cooperation" in order to actually get the loot that was hacked.

I see what you are trying to do - and I think you guys are on the right track. But it seems like it would make more sense if the loot that is jettisoned in containers use the normal containers that despawn in 2 hours.

To "encourage" teamwork, make the cans move in all directions away from the original hacking container at a decent speed, like 300m/s for example. If there is 7 or 8 containers moving in all directions, its going to be very slow for a solo explorer (but still possible to get all the loot from the site).

This would provide the option to bring along a buddy in an inty or someone in a destroyer with tractors and an MWD.

This seems like it would provide choices to the player - and would be a minigame in itself chasing down the cans.

I do want to thank you for you activity in this forum, as it encourages those to post, knowing you actually care. Great work.
CCP Bayesian
#190 - 2013-05-14 13:04:38 UTC
Kip Troger, thanks, I think it's important to come and chat to you guys, after all you are taking the time to give us feedback. :)

TBH I think even with your idea which is somewhat technically infeasible at the moment we'd still have the same complaint. People are used to getting all the goodies on success and the idea that you can succeed and not get everything or perhaps even miss out on something really good is just not what people expect. Essentially making things more fuzzy gets people worried. We are re-balancing the loot that comes out.

We are playing around with how long things stick around and how far off they go as well.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#191 - 2013-05-14 13:10:39 UTC
People will get used to it. Personally I think the principe that "soft skills", as well as actual personal skill at the game can increase rewards is excellent. If there's one thing that's worse than anything else about EVE's PvE, it's that it's so predictable.

Losing that predictability will be something of a shock, but ultimately for the best.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#192 - 2013-05-14 13:29:19 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
CCP Bayesian wrote:

require more than one person to get full benefit from.

Here in lyes the biggest issue, just because one is not flying in a fleet does not mean there is not mean they are not interacting with other players.
With the new system player skill and a bit of luck will play a big role, do not dampen that by arbitrarily making it require a small gang. As an explorer you already have to deal with other explorers, pirates, roaming gangs, and then once you get loot you must be able to sell it on the market against all those who you have had to compete with just to get your loot.

I also foresee a new complaint coming to F&I about a cloaky ship waiting at Data and Relic sites in high sec and de cloaking once the loot is jettisoned then stealing it.


There is nothing stopping people running these things solo still, we want to encourage, not force some cooperation.

If you like suspect flags stealing people's scattered containers sounds like a good way to get one. ;)

Suspect flags will encourage all in one fits to still be used, which is a good thing.
The Mini-Game, from what I have gotten to play on the test server, is fun and it is much better than click module and wait for success. Even the loss of everything upon failure too many times is great, the biggest issue I have with the new system is the scattered loot upon success, but I will test a working site on the test server once things become available, maybe I am being overly critical, maybe not though.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Sylvia Nardieu
Super Serious Fight Club
#193 - 2013-05-14 13:29:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Sylvia Nardieu
Abrazzar wrote:
Here's an idea how to avoid loot piñata and twitch clicking while promoting cooperation for hacking and archaeology for maximum profits:


  • Adjust the hacking game that a single player can only get a fraction of the loot with the hacking resources available from one ship.
  • ...
  • This may make hacking very easy with a lot of people doing a concerted hack effort as the virus resources pile up, but the maximum loot is limited, so the profits per player peaks at a pre-planned, balanced point.


This would basically change nothing (if there was a predetermined cap on what profit per player would be) and would hardly provide incentives for group play - if I earn 20 mil per site solo or in a group of 5, what's the difference except for the fleet chat (and that I already have in channels I'm part of w/o explo). One thing that could be done is some increasing rewards mechanism stemming from group effort - chance of some very valuable loot with high virus strength, but tbh I don't like the forcing group play bit. I'd prefer exploration to be a fully fledged profession, where your skills, very specialized equipment and personal (real-life) experience make you a good explorer/hacker/archeologist, kind of like probing (combat part in particular) is right now.

The thing is, in my experience, explorers are quite often lone wolfs, doing it either full time or to get a change of pace from what they do as their primary career (PvP, industrials, miners etc). Some aspects of exploration already require group (or at least multi-boxing) efforts to get high rewards (higher end combat sites and escalations), so I see no reason for removing options for solo and/or very small group play.
Maybe introduce something akin to escalations in arecheology and create mechanics which would require group play (e.g. a site where coding of the most valuable container can't be done unless two-three other containers are actively being kept de-crypted by other fleet members with appropriate modules). However such content would probably require much more effort and coding then CCP obviously has resources for atm (considering that they couldn't develop separate mechanisms for arch/hacking).

For now, I stand by my proposal - don't de-spawn containers, rather make them float to a decent distance from inital spawn point, say 50-70km radius circle, thus increasing time required per container retrieved for solo guys. That should balance things out just fine.
Kip Troger
System lords Collective
#194 - 2013-05-14 13:32:24 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Kip Troger, thanks, I think it's important to come and chat to you guys, after all you are taking the time to give us feedback. :)

TBH I think even with your idea which is somewhat technically infeasible at the moment we'd still have the same complaint. People are used to getting all the goodies on success and the idea that you can succeed and not get everything or perhaps even miss out on something really good is just not what people expect. Essentially making things more fuzzy gets people worried. We are re-balancing the loot that comes out.

We are playing around with how long things stick around and how far off they go as well.


Sometimes we the players can get caught up in the game design aspect without knowing the actual limitations from a software design aspect - especially not knowing anything about the code infrastructure for this specific task.

Once it comes up on SiSi, I will make sure to go out and play test it and provide feedback, as I am speculating a lot at the moment.

I am also interested to try it out while dual boxing my characters. I am not sure if this was intednded to be done with two different players, rather than just two characters. Becuase dual-boxing seems like it will be very inneficient compared to actually having two players. If this was intended - that is creative, and a little sneaky.

I am confident you guys will come out with a solid product in the end.
Sylvia Nardieu
Super Serious Fight Club
#195 - 2013-05-14 13:36:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Sylvia Nardieu
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Kip Troger, thanks, I think it's important to come and chat to you guys, after all you are taking the time to give us feedback. :)

TBH I think even with your idea which is somewhat technically infeasible at the moment we'd still have the same complaint. People are used to getting all the goodies on success and the idea that you can succeed and not get everything or perhaps even miss out on something really good is just not what people expect. Essentially making things more fuzzy gets people worried. We are re-balancing the loot that comes out.

We are playing around with how long things stick around and how far off they go as well.


I don't think that people are as worried about fuzzyness as you might think (tell me about certainty of rewards after doing 20 combat explo sites and getting decent drops from 3-4 of those).
It's more about those sites currently not being really valuable and de-spawning mechanism making them even less so.
If loot is being rebalanced too I guess we'll have to wait and see how it plays out before further comments, however - the general direction this is going to is really good and I like it Big smile.
Solkara Starlock
Circle of Mystery
#196 - 2013-05-14 13:45:54 UTC
Thanks for the feedback, CCP.
Really appreciated!

This hacking mechanic set people dreaming about hacking POS, Ships, etc,.. That is a great thing!
I still dislike the vanishing cans, but I already said that.

Since all the new modules are mid slots, are there plans to increase the mid slots on the scanning ships?

Tsero Outamon
House Arryn
#197 - 2013-05-14 13:47:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsero Outamon
Quick question:

What skills are going to be involved in the new hacking system? I've never really done hacking before and am curious if I'll only need the Hacking skill or what other skills will be applicable to this profession.

Edit:

Also, how common will these sites be in high/low/null sec and w-space?
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#198 - 2013-05-14 13:52:04 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Kip Troger, thanks, I think it's important to come and chat to you guys, after all you are taking the time to give us feedback. :)

TBH I think even with your idea which is somewhat technically infeasible at the moment we'd still have the same complaint. People are used to getting all the goodies on success and the idea that you can succeed and not get everything or perhaps even miss out on something really good is just not what people expect. Essentially making things more fuzzy gets people worried. We are re-balancing the loot that comes out.

We are playing around with how long things stick around and how far off they go as well.


As long as things stick around reasonably long enough for a solo explorer to catch all of them, if he is efficient at it and quick, it would balance ok in my eyes. You're right about wanting to get all the goodies after our hard work is completed. The risk of not getting it all should come from competing players in the area in my opinion, not from artificial expiration dates on inanimate objects in space.

The scattering of the loot is a good idea for emergent gameplay I think. It allows for theft of the reward, it costs the explorer time in picking it up, giving hunters time to find him and kill/ransom him, and it might even decloak a hunter that is lurking too closely. That part is fine IMO.

But as someone mentioned, exploring is generally a solo activity. The risks and rewards in these types of sites aren't generally high enough to merit bringing friends with you anyway. At most I might bring an alt with me if its one with lots of rats or turrets to kill, and then I only bring the alt to speed up the process.

Bringing a friend along to help scoop up cargo in the new version still leaves him in the cold with no extra gameplay. He's not involved in the hacking, he's just there to help pickup the loot. Not exactly engaging exploration gameplay there, that's just bringing a porter along.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.

Roki Romani
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#199 - 2013-05-14 14:13:35 UTC
I'd love to see this hacking mini-game take off...

I find it easy to imagine a future where dedicated hackers are cooking up their own personalised viruses and dueling them against each other for sport, or where you hack your own POS to fill it with nasty booby-traps that do stuff like temporarily off-line random modules, then intentionally leave it offline to see who comes along to try and steal it.

I think "perma-death" of your virus would be a lot more meaningful if you personally had to put some time and effort into assembling it. ie If losing a virus felt a little like losing a fitted ship (in terms of time sunk fitting it, not cost).
Utremi Fasolasi
La Dolce Vita
#200 - 2013-05-14 14:28:34 UTC
Utremi Fasolasi wrote:


How will this mechanic affect the COSMOS sites like in Algintal? Can you get permalocked out of the Force Repeller Relic in Deltole for example or any of the cans in the other COSMOS systems?


Requoting for great justice, it seems to have been missed with all the dev replies to people after me.