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Dev blog: Hacking in Odyssey

First post First post
Author
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#221 - 2013-05-14 19:16:22 UTC
Are wormhole sites losing their standard npc spawns?
None ofthe Above
#222 - 2013-05-14 19:28:18 UTC
Sheena Tzash wrote:
EvilweaselSA wrote:
It's about what you interpret as a loss vs a gain. Once the you "win" the minigame, you interpret all that loot as yours. It's set up in a way so that this last part doesn't feel like it's about seeing how much loot you get: it's about how much you can avoid losing. People won't like that.


Yep I have to agree with this sentiment as well.

I can see this loot explosion being fun at first but irritating later on because its not much fun to chase after the loot that you've spent all this time to get in the first place!

Compare this to the new belt ratting 'tags4sec' business, the mechanics consist of:

1) Warp to belt [No fun]
2) Find rat that drops tag [No fun]
3) If no rat, return to 1 [No fun - repetitive]
3) Kill rat [Fun]
4) Get tag [Result]

Now lets look at running an exploration site

1) Warp to system [No fun]
2) Deploy probes [No fun]
3) Scan down x number of sites [No fun - repetitive]
4) Hack Site [Mini-game, fun-ish, repetitive]
5) Run after loot [ARGH!]

I'm sorry but I dislike the idea of having to go through all those steps, take all that time to get my reward only for it to quite literally RUN AWAY from me!?

Potentially if im not fast enough to react (or most likely be playing pinball against a structure) I could walk away with nothing.

Also bear in mind that we're now adding more elements to delay the player (ie, chasing down cans) and direct their attention away (ie, mini game) from checking local & Dscan and those elements will only further discourage players from going into lower sec space if they feel like they have to jump through more time delaying hoops and expose themselves for longer in more dangous space.


Have to agree with this concern. Increased frustration and the feeling that you are being set up as a clay pigeon is not an enjoyable experience. Sure a bit of a rush, "getting away with it" but that' a rather niche group that will stick with that kind of experience.

Furthermore, adding the need for tractor beams on an exploration ship further increases the difference between a PVE ship and a PVP/Ganker ship. This isn't encouraging PvP really, just gank targets.

I'd like to see a move toward less of a difference between PVE and PVP fits. That way when someone comes after your exploration ship, you can actually defend yourself. Can gateway individuals into PVP perhaps even. Making it not cost effective to prepare a defense locks people into the carebear pigeonhole.

GF?

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.

Chokichi Ozuwara
Perkone
Caldari State
#223 - 2013-05-14 19:38:58 UTC
Roime wrote:
You are wrong.

Old version: engage module, wait for dice rolls, receive bacon (this is as dumb as it gets)
New version: engage module, solve puzzle, receive bacon or fail (this is much more engaging)

Wait for dice rolls, fight NPCs, scan for neuts, etc.

New version, play repetitious 2D autistic puzzle, chase loot cans across space.

Again, what about this is "exploration"?

CCP Bayesian wrote:
The mechanics we're putting in allow for more emergence than currently exists. I don't see how we are dumbing down the game by making perhaps the dumbest mechanic in EVE more complex with a mechanic that rewards player skill

What skill does it reward?

CCP Bayesian wrote:
along with complementary mechanics that require more than one person to get full benefit from.

Dude, most of these sites don't pay out enough stuff to validate anyone forming a team to run them. They have to already be one of the least rewarding PvE activities in the game.

I don't want to say you guys don't play the game, although that's my instinct, but I suspect you guys don't play the damn game. People run DED sites collaboratively because there is a chance of a payout that makes it worth it (high end mods, pirate faction BPCs). No one is going to run hisec archaeology sites with a team, when they currently pay out less than 500k 50% of the time. Or Nullsec data sites that pay out less than 30 mill. Not when there are anoms and ratting to be done.

Tears will be shed and pants will need to be changed all round.

Erik Finnegan
Polytechnique Gallenteenne
#224 - 2013-05-14 20:08:17 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
How long until this?

Yes ! Paradroid had the best hacking game EVAARRRR

I pointed CCP Affinity to it during fanfest and sent her the link; exactly this video incidentally. She said they'll look at it for inspiration.
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#225 - 2013-05-14 21:15:21 UTC
Chokichi Ozuwara wrote:

I don't want to say you guys don't play the game, although that's my instinct, but I suspect you guys don't play the damn game. People run DED sites collaboratively because there is a chance of a payout that makes it worth it (high end mods, pirate faction BPCs). No one is going to run hisec archaeology sites with a team, when they currently pay out less than 500k 50% of the time. Or Nullsec data sites that pay out less than 30 mill. Not when there are anoms and ratting to be done.


People actually rarely do these as a genuine team because it's such a pain in the ass organizing several people compared to just multiboxing it. Transaction costs of organizing it and all.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#226 - 2013-05-14 21:20:09 UTC
Will the "can chasing" require manual piloting of your ship in order to be effective?

If so, it's literally the only place in the game where manual piloting is necessary. A lot of newer players don't even know it's possible.

The manual piloting interface in EVE is clunky and annoying even now--the one-second tick speed of the server certainly doesn't help that. EVE has never been a twitch-based game--that's one of the wonderful things about EVE.

Don't spoil it by trying to shoehorn twitch-based gameplay into a game that's fantastic without it. If I wanted to manually fly a ship, I'd play something else.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#227 - 2013-05-14 22:20:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
CCP Bayesian wrote:

require more than one person to get full benefit from.

Here in lyes the biggest issue, just because one is not flying in a fleet does not mean there is not mean they are not interacting with other players.
With the new system player skill and a bit of luck will play a big role, do not dampen that by arbitrarily making it require a small gang. As an explorer you already have to deal with other explorers, pirates, roaming gangs, and then once you get loot you must be able to sell it on the market against all those who you have had to compete with just to get your loot.

I also foresee a new complaint coming to F&I about a cloaky ship waiting at Data and Relic sites in high sec and de cloaking once the loot is jettisoned then stealing it.


There is nothing stopping people running these things solo still, we want to encourage, not force some cooperation.

If you like suspect flags stealing people's scattered containers sounds like a good way to get one. ;)


I have a big request to you: Less luck more logic! A challenging game will be much more accepted then a luck game. Also people will talk and give much more value to things that they can make plans, strategies and get bonuses for their inteligence then the "F*** that s*** and click everywhere cause the results are the same."

So make it much more logical then luck please!
Arriaz
TxivYawg
#228 - 2013-05-14 22:43:38 UTC
So if there are no rats at these sites, could we now actually use a covops frig for exploration in null/low sec? After all you can't fit a tank in the mid slots if you need hacking and scanning mods?

Also, it is fundamentally wrong to have separate teams working on separate items without an over arching plan. Who is in charge of ensuring all the "features" in Odyssey are integrated? I suspect that person might need a course on project management.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#229 - 2013-05-14 22:45:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaju Enki
The new Hacking loot mechanic is weird.

The Tears Must Flow

Snapper Pumpkinpuss
Sarano Planetary Goods Distribution
DammFam
#230 - 2013-05-15 01:09:12 UTC
for reals player expand on this consept if you mine an assteroid and you fail no ore or if you run a mission and dont do it exsactly right you loose yoru ship ..or if you trade and your late you loose ...you guys are brilliant but you shouldnt be able to sell or trade or get reward from a mission without solveing a puzzle that no doubt 18 yeaolds with alot of xbox time can do ...wonder what the average age is here
Snapper Pumpkinpuss
Sarano Planetary Goods Distribution
DammFam
#231 - 2013-05-15 01:16:02 UTC
well i should have to solve a puzzle to get into a base ..and mine...and trade...and mission ...and well i guess i need to work with my physical theripist to un freeze my hands so i can do it quickly and i have to have a freind there to help of course ....can my dog play too
Strata Maslav
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#232 - 2013-05-15 02:36:22 UTC
Off-Topic Hacking Proposal
All this talk of hacking got me thinking about what hacking is used for in real life; the retrieval of otherwise inaccessible data. The Odyssey changes to exploration will be adding a new interactive hacking to the game and but still only rewarding pod pilots with physical loot.
Why can’t digital espionage have a role in pvp?
Since information is such an asset in EVE why is there no way (other then spying) to fight over intelligence?

Allow small gangs to infiltrate an area and secure information about systems or constellations by hacking specific structures. Once the structure is secured a pilot can then hack the structure. This information could give the “hackers” real-time information about the current location of ships within a constellation, perhaps requiring them to hack several structures or a single constellation centralised structure.
A hacked structure could give real time information over a period of time (unless it is hacked by another individual) or give a snap shot of the current status requiring the pilot to remain close in order to keep getting these snap shots (more vulnerable).

Entities hoping to keep this information for themselves could guard these structures with covert groups attempting to disengage this structure before showing their hand.
The intelligence should be real-time to allow the players to use the hacking actions to their benefit and give them objective that give them a real advantage.

This hacking could go as far as to disable certain alliance structures and give benefit to raiders if they hold onto them (passive income?).
Maekchu
Doomheim
#233 - 2013-05-15 03:52:43 UTC
I just hope CCP will add enough risk in low/nullsec, so it won't be too easy for people to just run a cloaky T1 exploration frigate, with no means of loosing their ship or anyone catching them. If the risk is close to non-existent, then especially lowsec will soon be flooded with explorers. Removing the benefit current lowsec explorers have, which is lots of signatures to run, cause of the low competition.

The risk will be added through strong enough "triggered" NPCs, or giving pirates the opportunity to actually probe down explorers and blow them up, or both.

I suppose CCP is leaning towards the first mentioned method, since they will allow people to use both local and d-scan while hacking. But any competent player will just spam short-range d-scan while they hack, and just warp out when anything gets in range.

Obviously (since I like to shoot players), I'd love if CCP made it so, that you can't d-scan while hacking. It would make the explorers vulnerable in a short periods of time, giving pirates a chance to actually scan down the target and hopefully warp to him. This would not only add an additional layer of "risk" in low/nullsec, but also give the more skilled explorers a sense of reward (The faster you hack, the safer you will be). I can understand that some people feel the "skill" of exploration have been removed, because of the preset probe formations. Why not use the hacking mini-game for this instead?

However, I am still looking forward to see what the result will be in the end.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#234 - 2013-05-15 07:02:04 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Obsidian Dagger wrote:
So it's the Deus Ex: HR hacking minigame?


It's reasonably different and shares a lot more elements ...................................and the card game Munchkin.



What ever you do, don't pick up the Duck, I think I'm ready for this :)
Tyrion Moath
Browncoat Industries
#235 - 2013-05-15 07:29:42 UTC
CCP Tallest wrote:
Hacking and Archaeology containers in Wormholes will use the new hacking and scatter mechanics.


What about the sites where activating hacking/analyzing modules is the trigger for the next wave? The loot from whichever can spawns the next wave is basically lost then. For example, this site: http://eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=ForgottenCoreInformationPen
Abigail Sagan
Skeleton Liberation Front
#236 - 2013-05-15 07:48:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Abigail Sagan
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Tsero Outamon wrote:
Quick question:

What skills are going to be involved in the new hacking system? I've never really done hacking before and am curious if I'll only need the Hacking skill or what other skills will be applicable to this profession.

Edit:

Also, how common will these sites be in high/low/null sec and w-space?


The normal hacking and archaeology skills, for example:
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Hacker

You also need to be able to scan down the sites with them in.

The distribution is going to remain the same but the sites are better balanced in terms of rewards from high->null sec.


Related to the above, but not quite. Some people have already asked info for this, but I don't think we have received an answer: What will hacking and archaelogy skills do? They cannot give us faster cycle time anymore, since it won't matter. Also, what is the difference between T1/T2 Codebreaker/Analyzer or T1/T2 WhateverTheNewModulesWillBeCalled?

I expect you have an answer to that, since it is only two weeks and couple of days until official Odyssey date. If you don't... *doesn't want to think about it*

Also, those virus we are supposed to use: Where do we get them from? Or don't we need them at the beginning?

Edit: Apparently plural form of 'virus' is 'viruses' in english, not 'virii'. My mistake. :)
Edit2: Typo fix (You => I)
Sylvia Nardieu
Super Serious Fight Club
#237 - 2013-05-15 08:42:52 UTC
Ran into a 'combat/hacking' ladar site y'day and it seems that they haven't been changed at all? What's the reasoning behind this? It's not that they were terribly profitable anyway (appart from once-in-a-blue-moon drop of skillbooks).
CCP Bayesian
#238 - 2013-05-15 09:10:51 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Bayesian
Abigail Sagan wrote:
Related to the above, but not quite. Some people have already asked info for this, but I don't think we have received an answer: What will hacking and archaelogy skills do? They cannot give us faster cycle time anymore, since it won't matter. Also, what is the difference between T1/T2 Codebreaker/Analyzer or T1/T2 WhateverTheNewModulesWillBeCalled?

You expect you have an answer to that, since it is only two weeks and couple of days until official Odyssey date. If you don't... *doesn't want to think about it*

Also, those virus we are supposed to use: Where do we get them from? Or don't we need them at the beginning?

Edit: Apparently plural form of 'virus' is 'viruses' in english, not 'virii'. My mistake. :)


The virus is the module itself, the stats used in the hacking attempts come from the modules. Ship bonuses and skill bonuses translate into buffs for the module stats.

I'll poke people to talk about Ladar sites.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter

Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#239 - 2013-05-15 09:18:11 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I also foresee a new complaint coming to F&I about a cloaky ship waiting at Data and Relic sites in high sec and de cloaking once the loot is jettisoned then stealing it.


Ooh, yes please. I am very much looking forward to this aspect! Better make sure the cans aren't blue, though.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Abigail Sagan
Skeleton Liberation Front
#240 - 2013-05-15 09:33:25 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Abigail Sagan wrote:
Related to the above, but not quite. Some people have already asked info for this, but I don't think we have received an answer: What will hacking and archaelogy skills do? They cannot give us faster cycle time anymore, since it won't matter. Also, what is the difference between T1/T2 Codebreaker/Analyzer or T1/T2 WhateverTheNewModulesWillBeCalled?

I expect you have an answer to that, since it is only two weeks and couple of days until official Odyssey date. If you don't... *doesn't want to think about it*

Also, those virus we are supposed to use: Where do we get them from? Or don't we need them at the beginning?

Edit: Apparently plural form of 'virus' is 'viruses' in english, not 'virii'. My mistake. :)


The virus is the module itself, the stats used in the hacking attempts come from the modules. Ship bonuses and skill bonuses translate into buffs for the module stats.


Thank you for the answer. So you had thought about it, just as I expected (even though I feared otherwise).

PS: Typo fixed from my quoted text. (You=>I)