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Dev blog: Hacking in Odyssey

First post First post
Author
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2013-05-13 22:51:50 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:

require more than one person to get full benefit from.

Here in lyes the biggest issue, just because one is not flying in a fleet does not mean there is not mean they are not interacting with other players.
With the new system player skill and a bit of luck will play a big role, do not dampen that by arbitrarily making it require a small gang. As an explorer you already have to deal with other explorers, pirates, roaming gangs, and then once you get loot you must be able to sell it on the market against all those who you have had to compete with just to get your loot.

I also foresee a new complaint coming to F&I about a cloaky ship waiting at Data and Relic sites in high sec and de cloaking once the loot is jettisoned then stealing it.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#142 - 2013-05-13 23:06:15 UTC
CCP Guard wrote:
Like the movie "Hackers" taught us, hackers are really cool people who live fun and interesting lives. Mindful of this fact, our developers have decided to make some big changes to hacking in EVE Online so we can all have fun being cool hackers!

CCP Bayesian has written a dev blog about the hacking changes coming in EVE Online: Odyssey. Check it out and please give us your feedback!


LOL, cool hackers, if only......

Now Personally i think its a game for a tablet (or for a WiS activity where it would really be good), this is mainly being due to its format, a large black slab that obscures the screen, so I wish that the hacking window was nigh on transparent so immersion is not broken. I can see where you are going now with the blogs release, but it is a game within a game and change in the basic mechanics of eve.

I will miss the NPC guards (additional rig building goodies and occasional useful mod and mins), u don't need an omni tengu to solo a low sec site, a t2 cruiser can be fitted to do it with ease (even some t1 bs´s could do it). Making them safer diminishes eve in a way, its meant to be a challenging game, not a bacon conveyor belt you get reward but where is the RISK?.

already dead, just haven´t fallen over yet....

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#143 - 2013-05-13 23:07:43 UTC
I think this may be the single biggest downer to exploration out there. I don't need to pay attention to some damned minigame. I've already got enough going on. Do the people who designed this trash actually play Eve?

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#144 - 2013-05-13 23:09:00 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
I think this may be the single biggest downer to exploration out there. I don't need to pay attention to some damned minigame. I've already got enough going on. Do the people who designed this trash actually play Eve?


May I suggest mining?
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#145 - 2013-05-13 23:15:26 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Chokichi Ozuwara wrote:
Nothing in Eve rewards based on skill and intelligence that isn't emergent. That's why exploration has sucked for so long. There is no way to do exploration better because it isn't player driven. There is no way to optimize.

The minigame is just another such closed system. Game design FAIL.

Minigames don't reflect the character and capability of people who actually are interested in space exploration. Remember, people who do exploration also do DED sites and follow escalations into unknown and dangerous places.

They aren't your usual highsec pubbies who don't fit a tank or prop mod. They aren't people who think having 10 mining alts is WINNING.

Dumbing down what should be the most interesting and emergent part of the game down is sad but not totally unexpected from people who think the problem is the spreadsheets (tax returns SNARF) not the nature of the element itself.

I get it, you need these crappy games to validate moving to some mobile content. But my god, it's horrible. HORRIBLE.


The mechanics we're putting in allow for more emergence than currently exists. I don't see how we are dumbing down the game by making perhaps the dumbest mechanic in EVE more complex with a mechanic that rewards player skill along with complementary mechanics that require more than one person to get full benefit from. We're also somewhat bound by the legacy of the system in that these sites are created content. Improving that requires much more work. Bottom line is that we are working towards getting more people interacting in space to drive emergent things happening.

Opening up Utilities to the market and later player creation will help as well. Plus the feature itself can be used elsewhere where it can be used by players to achieve their emergent goals.


But you are forgetting that it has to be FUN and replayable. Emergent content in Eve is fun when it means competing against another human being who is trying to destroy your shiny stuff. Playing a random hacking game against the computer is not fun, particularly the 678879th time you do it. Especially when, if you successfully complete the site, you have to share the rewards with a small gang in order to get anything at all. Which means that the site has to be lucrative enough to be worth a small gang's time.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#146 - 2013-05-13 23:18:22 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:

But you are forgetting that it has to be FUN and replayable. Emergent content in Eve is fun when it means competing against another human being who is trying to destroy your shiny stuff. Playing a random hacking game against the computer is not fun, particularly the 678879th time you do it. Especially when, if you successfully complete the site, you have to share the rewards with a small gang in order to get anything at all. Which means that the site has to be lucrative enough to be worth a small gang's time.

yeah cause when i think of the old mechanism (kill rats with setup that has no chance of dying, orbit can waiting for rng to come up "open sesame", open can) I think "FUN and replayable"

i am getting sad just thinking about not being able to orbit a can waiting on an rng anymore

i tried orbiting a gsc while rolling dice but it just wasn't the same
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#147 - 2013-05-13 23:19:43 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
FT Diomedes wrote:
But you are forgetting that it has to be FUN and replayable. Emergent content in Eve is fun when it means competing against another human being who is trying to destroy your shiny stuff. Playing a random hacking game against the computer is not fun, particularly the 678879th time you do it. Especially when, if you successfully complete the site, you have to share the rewards with a small gang in order to get anything at all. Which means that the site has to be lucrative enough to be worth a small gang's time.

Think what you will, this new system is indisputably more engaging and fun than the old system.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#148 - 2013-05-13 23:26:48 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
But you are forgetting that it has to be FUN and replayable. Emergent content in Eve is fun when it means competing against another human being who is trying to destroy your shiny stuff. Playing a random hacking game against the computer is not fun, particularly the 678879th time you do it. Especially when, if you successfully complete the site, you have to share the rewards with a small gang in order to get anything at all. Which means that the site has to be lucrative enough to be worth a small gang's time.

Thing what you will, this new system is indisputably more engaging and fun than the old system.


Is it more fun and engaging than PvPing on one screen while earning a bit of ISK from your alt?

All PVE in this game is repetitive and boring if you do it enough (because it is against the computer, not a thinking human). This annoying little game is no different - it just happens to be shiny and new. Sort of like the first couple of Level 4 missions you ran... they were scary and exciting. Then you did 10000 more and wanted to gouge your eyes out.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#149 - 2013-05-13 23:30:02 UTC
please stop replacing boring and unfun gameplay it is runining my workflow of playing your game by doing something else and only begrudgingly switching to the supposed content to adjust something to let the game play itself a while longer
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#150 - 2013-05-13 23:51:02 UTC
Congrats, CCP. You have completely destroyed hacking/archaeology.

The modules are not even required. Just right-click and select open cargo. Get bacon. One person on the test server hadn't even realized there was a new mini-game because it was not required to open the containers.

Honeypots are totally broken. They will indefinitely buff the defenses without limit, making the game totally and completely impossible to win. They are supposed to be repair modules, not infinite defense buffs. Only allow them to repair up to the original amount of the defense's HP. As they are now, you absolutely must pop them, which makes them into virus power sinks.

The grpahics were so badly bugged as to make the game almost unplayable. Lines and nodes didn't line up. Clicking would sometimes require dozens of attmepts for anything to change. When a defense of some kind would suddenly spawn, I would fall right into it because, OMG CLICKING!

When I was able to get to the core, I found it odd that by spam-clicking, the outer circle of the core would gradually shrink and disappear. Does this signify something? Was somethign supposed to happen? Also, as I got to within one shot of popping the core, the entire game would simply stop responding and nothing more would happen. I could still click on stuff. But nothing would ever change or give me any indication of success or failure. Message? What up? Did I just get back-hacked or something? idgi.

Right, now on to the good stuff. The tools look and work well. I would like to see an offense buff in addition to the HP repair, temp invulnerable shield, and attack tool. This would make a nice balance to the available tools.

I want to conclude by saying that I appreciate CCP's efforts on this. But this new game needs a lot more work. It needs to at least be capable of rewarding success properly, and not be completely optional and broken as it is now. Tie the elements together so that they are working as you want us to experience them. Right now, it doesn't work at all. I can't imagine releasing it as it is now. The forums rage would, however, be spectacular.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Marsan
#151 - 2013-05-14 00:01:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Marsan
Knug LiDi wrote:


Hacking POCO's ? Not so much, as they are 1) always powered 2) lack active defense. I've cleared POCO's solo, it doesn't take too long considering the value of the asset. Heck, at least they don't go into siege mode.

If you want the ability to hack my POCO for its contents, I want the ability to anchor guns near it.



The real problem with POCOs is timers. The NPC ones just blow up, but the player ones reinforce and come out at a time determined by the player owner. This is rather annoying if it's in a time zone that your corp doesn't cover as you may not be able to hit the thing over a weekend. I'd be okay with the owner being able to rehack before a 24-48 timer expires as I don't mind reinforcing a POCO if it gets me a fight when the timer ends it's the ones people put up, and abandoned that are annoying. Grinding 5-7 of them in a c1-4 is boring....

PS- Personally I think we should be able to anchor a tower next the the POCOs or any where else we want short of gates and stations.


PPS- Soldarius you did actually read the dev post, and the follow up comments. The current code on the test server is a very early release. The final code will force you to play the mini-game to get the contents....

Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.

Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
#152 - 2013-05-14 00:12:19 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:

The mechanics we're putting in allow for more emergence than currently exists. I don't see how we are dumbing down the game by making perhaps the dumbest mechanic in EVE more complex with a mechanic that rewards player skill along with complementary mechanics that require more than one person to get full benefit from. We're also somewhat bound by the legacy of the system in that these sites are created content. Improving that requires much more work. Bottom line is that we are working towards getting more people interacting in space to drive emergent things happening.

Opening up Utilities to the market and later player creation will help as well. Plus the feature itself can be used elsewhere where it can be used by players to achieve their emergent goals.


What "player skill" is being rewarded with the new mini game? From what I can tell by the few times I've payed it the mini game is just clicking on all the nodes you can until everything is blocked then just picking a "blocker" to crack, but since everything is random within the game there really isn't a "strategy" (or skill) to it.

Now it is more "complex" if you define complexity by having to make a few dozen more clicks (and mouse movements) to do the same thing you could before. Now to do a hacking site you must click on the can, move over and click Dscan, move back to click a node, move over and click Dscan, move back to click a node, move over over and click Dscan, move back to click a node, move over and click Dscan, move back to click a node, throw your mouse through the monitor. I though PI tought you guys not to make clickfests?

Now you did find a way to require more than one person to do this, by making the people who have been doing exploration (mostly solo players) feel they are loosing out in loot now.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#153 - 2013-05-14 00:14:30 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Especially when, if you successfully complete the site, you have to share the rewards with a small gang in order to get anything at all. Which means that the site has to be lucrative enough to be worth a small gang's time.
This is pretty much my only concern with the new system. Granted I'm not a huge fan of sitting in one spot at a can in a low-sec site playing a mini-game for what I'm guessing will be the same amount of time I would have spent fighting rats that will no longer be there - don't like it, but I can deal with it. But this whole "loot bukkake" idea has me a bit suspicious. Like Diomedes said, it's gotta be worth a small gang's effort. Also, kinda hoping CCP changes up the loot tables a bit. If I spend 10min sitting stationary in a low-sec site playing a minigame, gonna be kinda pissed if I can only grab a few cans that are full of Spare Parts that won't even sell on the market. If I'm running sites solo, I'm fine with not making "all of the profit". But it still does need to be profitable. And the oversaturated building parts for decryptors are NOT profitable.

And while you are at it, might wanna make Mag sites worth doing as well. Cuz right now the only reason to do hi/low-sec Mag sites is to hopefully generate a new useful site in the constellation. As it stands now, 80-100 T1 salvage, plus 1 or 2 T2 salvage isn't really worth the effort/risk.
Stridsflygplan
Deliverance.
Arrival.
#154 - 2013-05-14 00:27:45 UTC
If the site have a time limit will I get more time doing it if Time Dilation is active? Cool
Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
#155 - 2013-05-14 00:41:40 UTC
I posted this in the general forums threadnaught about this new game play. As there few dev response I am reposting it here.

I like to think I am an enterprising capsuler so when I see this new system I think to myself "how do I make it better?" For example I scan down a wreck.

First, I recon the area to ensure no one is around. I then attached my wire rope net capable of holding up to 25 m3 (or more after all I am in space right?) to encompass the door to be hacked. Let's call this net the wicket keeper or catcher's glove.

Second, I want to be within 5000m to initiate the code break but I want to be cloaked so no one that stumbles upon me and lock on.

Third, and after the foolishness of figuring out how to open the cargo bay door, the door opens and all the goodies fly out into the net. But wait! The force of the decompression has detached the net from the ship! No problem, it is still all bundled together. I'll just tractor it in.

BTW, why exactly is all the loot piled up in the cargo bay and not secured like with the airlock?

How do we translate that into an EVE mechanic. A new mechanic means a new skill! Let's say without the skill you might obtain 15-20% of the loot because it is flying all over the place. With the skill at lvl1 skill you slow down the expansion and increase the time to capture the loot. Say 20-30% increase in loot recovery. Lvl 2 could be 30-40%, lvl3-40-50%, lvl4 50-60% lvl5 60-75% (I am just making this up ok!?!)

The point is, if we are playing catch the firefly then lets us train to increase the chances of obtaining most if not all the loot. I know a lot of EVE requires one to suspend disbelief but explosive decompression with all the loot right next to the airlock? And what if the vessel has already decompressed? Hmmm?

Hydrostatic Podcast First class listening of all things EVE

Check out the Eve-Prosper show for your market updates!

Gevlin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#156 - 2013-05-14 01:35:46 UTC
I sorta feel the dumping down from the new scanning change, getting this probes just right was a challenge.

On the other hand this mechanic is being used as a corridor to more accessible content

So I hope that the hacking does require some skill to compensate for this

I guess we will have to be un cloaked to hack?

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships

Jing Xin
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#157 - 2013-05-14 02:05:03 UTC
Things developers can do with this:

  • Give analyzer and codebreaker scripts that give bonus and drawback to allow players to develop their style of solving these puzzles.
  • Diversify archaeology from hacking further. Or unite them into one thing, if there is no difference.
  • Update COSMOS hacking/archaeology content accordingly.
Ge Hucel-Ge
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#158 - 2013-05-14 06:32:43 UTC
it would be great to hack a pos/poco/station/ihub to get its reinforce timer.

should at least work great with poses. because you have to win the minigame and keep the hacking ship alive against the pos guns.

for sov stuff and pocos some kind of capital hacking module which requires a sieged carrier or dread would be nice :D
could be a nice role for blackops too.
Limyc
Dojo Holdings
#159 - 2013-05-14 06:37:00 UTC
Just came here to say that I resubbed because of this dev blog. I've been waiting a long time for an exploration update. THANK YOU!
CCP Bayesian
#160 - 2013-05-14 07:13:29 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
CCP Bayesian wrote:

require more than one person to get full benefit from.

Here in lyes the biggest issue, just because one is not flying in a fleet does not mean there is not mean they are not interacting with other players.
With the new system player skill and a bit of luck will play a big role, do not dampen that by arbitrarily making it require a small gang. As an explorer you already have to deal with other explorers, pirates, roaming gangs, and then once you get loot you must be able to sell it on the market against all those who you have had to compete with just to get your loot.

I also foresee a new complaint coming to F&I about a cloaky ship waiting at Data and Relic sites in high sec and de cloaking once the loot is jettisoned then stealing it.


There is nothing stopping people running these things solo still, we want to encourage, not force some cooperation.

If you like suspect flags stealing people's scattered containers sounds like a good way to get one. ;)

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter