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[Winter] Changes to NPC AI

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Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#341 - 2012-10-26 17:40:10 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:

Ok so you run missions in an Ishtar. You tested the new A.I. in an Ishtar. (Fact) This is probably the worst possible ship to test the new A.I. with. Not because it is a bad ship to run Level 4 missions in, on the contrary it is one of the best LVL 4 mission ships. If you have the skills for it which most newer players do not. It is also probably the least affected ship by this A.I. change. If your preferred ship is an Ishtar than I assume you have really good drone skills. Add the ship bonus of 10% to drone hit points and it is easy to see why YOUR drones do not get insta popped when targeted. In what way does this prove there is no issue with less elite drone boats? Or non drone boats that rely on small drones to kill ships that get under their guns? or that the new A.I. has a negligible impact on LVL 4's?



What an ill-formed, and invalid conclusion.

An ishtar was a perfectly viable test. First and foremost the testing is of the new AI, how it changes its aggro etc. As far as I know, the aggro can be triggered by sig size, but nothing was said about T1 vs T2. So a test with an ishtar should give an indication of aggro mechanics of a cruiser class ship (which would also be similar to say, a noob vexor)

Bottom line is that ALL ship sizes need to be tested thoroughly to get any type of accurate indication of what is going to happen when this goes live.

For one, I'm glad I gave the mission life behind.

You are right, all ships do need to be tested.

My point was Tippia keeps insisting the new A.I. is fine and has caused no issues, and has had minimal impact on mission running. She keeps referring to her testing in an Ishtar to back this up.

An Ishtar as a lvl 4 mission runner has obviously has been minimally affected by the new A.I. change. Good to know. I would assume that all HAC's would have a similar easy time Keeping agro off drones.

The issue is this change has created a huge problem for T1 battleships. Testing further with an Ishtar or other cruiser size ships will do nothing to prove or disprove the impact this change has on T1 battleships.

As far as T1 vs T2. It has been stated that this new A.I. is a scaled down version of the A.I. used for sleepers and Incursions. In my experience that A.I. is affected by tech level of the ship. Running sleeper sites in a Tech 2 or Tech 3 ship I have had a much easier time generating hate to control agro in a Tech 2 ship than in a Tech 1. Although I have not spent much time against this A.I. in a T2 battleship. I assume that the higher hate generated by higher tech level ships is carried over to the new A.I. as it uses the same code.



I think the confusion may be that you have things backwards. Tippia very clearly stated in her first post (#216) that she flew a freshly trained Dominix. Dinsdale if I remember correctly did testing in an ishtar.
Junko Sideswipe
Love Squad
#342 - 2012-10-26 18:12:15 UTC
I spoke to FoxFour on Duality today after testing out a scenario in which a Tengu in an anomaly (Serpentis Hub) gets tackled by a Purifier and shot at. What I found and FoxFour's response:


  • Tengu warps to anom, starts running it, kills about 3 rats, orbits a large collidable structure in the center of the rats.
  • Purifier decloaks, launches bomb, locks the tengu, and points it with warp disruptor II and starts torping.
  • As soon as the purifier locked and agressed the tengu, the entire first wave of the anom locked up and started shooting the purifier even as the tengu continued to shoot the wave.
  • The tengu completes the first wave and spawns a new wave (while agressed by the purifier).
  • The new wave agressed only the tengu at first, but as soon as the tengu stopped firing on the rats and switched to the tackling stealth bomber, the entire second wave locked up and fired on the stealth bomber and never agressed the tengu again until the stealth bomber was dead.


The rats effectively helped the ratter kill the tackler.

Ratters are already pretty tough to catch, which is why we generally catch only the worst of the worst, people who don't watch local or pay attention to intel. Now those ratters get a second chance by having the rats help them kill the tackler so they can get away. My corp trains our newbies how to scan down targets and solo ratters in anomalies with destroyers and eventually stealth bombers, if they don't even have a chance at getting a kill because the full wave of rats are on them, then that's bad news for us. Our PVP focus relies on us catching ratters in anomalies that we try and d-scan down after jumping into a system, it already takes us over a minute to run the anom scanner scan, find the ships with the d-scanner, and then warp to the anomaly the ratter is in. Now that the rats are working for the ratter, it's nearly not worth doing anymore.

CCP FoxFour responded to my statements on duality saying they are "working on changing this" but "not sure when for".

Again I appreciate the Five 0 team, especially FoxFour, taking the time to hear what myself and others have had to say, as well as respond back to us. Being able to test the changes on Duality has been a big help in clarifying just what these changes mean for my alliance and other ratter hunters out there.

PIZZA CEO
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#343 - 2012-10-26 19:02:52 UTC
Junko Sideswipe wrote:
I spoke to FoxFour on Duality today after testing out a scenario in which a Tengu in an anomaly (Serpentis Hub) gets tackled by a Purifier and shot at. What I found and FoxFour's response:


  • Tengu warps to anom, starts running it, kills about 3 rats, orbits a large collidable structure in the center of the rats.
  • Purifier decloaks, launches bomb, locks the tengu, and points it with warp disruptor II and starts torping.
  • As soon as the purifier locked and agressed the tengu, the entire first wave of the anom locked up and started shooting the purifier even as the tengu continued to shoot the wave.
  • The tengu completes the first wave and spawns a new wave (while agressed by the purifier).
  • The new wave agressed only the tengu at first, but as soon as the tengu stopped firing on the rats and switched to the tackling stealth bomber, the entire second wave locked up and fired on the stealth bomber and never agressed the tengu again until the stealth bomber was dead.


The rats effectively helped the ratter kill the tackler.

Ratters are already pretty tough to catch, which is why we generally catch only the worst of the worst, people who don't watch local or pay attention to intel. Now those ratters get a second chance by having the rats help them kill the tackler so they can get away. My corp trains our newbies how to scan down targets and solo ratters in anomalies with destroyers and eventually stealth bombers, if they don't even have a chance at getting a kill because the full wave of rats are on them, then that's bad news for us. Our PVP focus relies on us catching ratters in anomalies that we try and d-scan down after jumping into a system, it already takes us over a minute to run the anom scanner scan, find the ships with the d-scanner, and then warp to the anomaly the ratter is in. Now that the rats are working for the ratter, it's nearly not worth doing anymore.

CCP FoxFour responded to my statements on duality saying they are "working on changing this" but "not sure when for".

Again I appreciate the Five 0 team, especially FoxFour, taking the time to hear what myself and others have had to say, as well as respond back to us. Being able to test the changes on Duality has been a big help in clarifying just what these changes mean for my alliance and other ratter hunters out there.


At least CCP are aware of the problem and that this NPC behavior is totally unacceptable. I just hope that code is commentated and they can fix it before ~*winter*~.
Opertone
State War Academy
Caldari State
#344 - 2012-10-26 19:31:41 UTC
omg, are the changes on Duality too?

Am I just new to this? I tried a lvl 5 mission and every single rat reps damage back up real fast. Like a spider tank.

Is it the new AI or just lvl 5 feature?

This post sums up why the 'best' work with DCM inc.

WARP DRIVE makes eve boring

really - add warping align time 300% on gun aggression and eve becomes great again
SkyLady Audeles
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#345 - 2012-10-26 20:37:33 UTC
Junko Sideswipe wrote:
I spoke to FoxFour on Duality today after testing out a scenario in which a Tengu in an anomaly (Serpentis Hub) gets tackled by a Purifier and shot at. What I found and FoxFour's response:


  • Tengu warps to anom, starts running it, kills about 3 rats, orbits a large collidable structure in the center of the rats.
  • Purifier decloaks, launches bomb, locks the tengu, and points it with warp disruptor II and starts torping.
  • As soon as the purifier locked and agressed the tengu, the entire first wave of the anom locked up and started shooting the purifier even as the tengu continued to shoot the wave.
  • The tengu completes the first wave and spawns a new wave (while agressed by the purifier).
  • The new wave agressed only the tengu at first, but as soon as the tengu stopped firing on the rats and switched to the tackling stealth bomber, the entire second wave locked up and fired on the stealth bomber and never agressed the tengu again until the stealth bomber was dead.


The rats effectively helped the ratter kill the tackler.

Ratters are already pretty tough to catch, which is why we generally catch only the worst of the worst, people who don't watch local or pay attention to intel. Now those ratters get a second chance by having the rats help them kill the tackler so they can get away. My corp trains our newbies how to scan down targets and solo ratters in anomalies with destroyers and eventually stealth bombers, if they don't even have a chance at getting a kill because the full wave of rats are on them, then that's bad news for us. Our PVP focus relies on us catching ratters in anomalies that we try and d-scan down after jumping into a system, it already takes us over a minute to run the anom scanner scan, find the ships with the d-scanner, and then warp to the anomaly the ratter is in. Now that the rats are working for the ratter, it's nearly not worth doing anymore.

CCP FoxFour responded to my statements on duality saying they are "working on changing this" but "not sure when for".

Again I appreciate the Five 0 team, especially FoxFour, taking the time to hear what myself and others have had to say, as well as respond back to us. Being able to test the changes on Duality has been a big help in clarifying just what these changes mean for my alliance and other ratter hunters out there.



Pretty hard to please all, however if taking into consideration balancing and fairness mechanics:

NPCs AI should make them engage and shoot any pilot without standing with them that land on grid, and not only the Tengu or the purifier as described above.

By engaging just the ratter, makes too easy to gankers/tacklers which has been the current mechanics. It would be nice have new mechanics for a change.

Everything should have a risk, to both rattler and trackler.

Evil
Vatek
Rents Due Crew
#346 - 2012-10-26 20:47:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Vatek
SkyLady Audeles wrote:
Pretty hard to please all, however if taking into consideration balancing and fairness mechanics:

NPCs AI should make them engage and shoot any pilot without standing with them that land on grid, and not only the Tengu or the purifier as described above.

By engaging just the ratter, makes too easy to gankers/tacklers which has been the current mechanics. It would be nice have new mechanics for a change.

Everything should have a risk, to both rattler and trackler.

Evil


Is this a real post? Currently the only way a ratter gets killed by a ganker is if they are not paying attention because there is automatically a huge time window between a ganker entering local and actually being able to locate the ratter. If the ganker is able to even get on grid with the ratter, it still has to contend with the ratter's dps, drones and whatever ewar it has fit. It is extremely common for the would-be ganker to get popped by drones or reinforcements arriving on grid.

Even if I jump into a system, immediately hit the system scanner and warp to a random anom that the ratter just happens to be in, there is still more than enough of a window between the 10s scan time and the time it takes for my ship to land in the anom for the ratter to safely warp out. If by some stroke of luck I land in tackle range, there is still no guarantee that I will be able to pull off the gank or get away in the event of a trap or inability to break the ratter's tank.

I have no idea how you think that it's too easy for gankers at the moment because it is completely the opposite. If rat dps and ewar gets added to the mix it just becomes impossible.
Typhado3
Peraka
#347 - 2012-10-26 21:46:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Typhado3
Vatek wrote:
SkyLady Audeles wrote:
Pretty hard to please all, however if taking into consideration balancing and fairness mechanics:

NPCs AI should make them engage and shoot any pilot without standing with them that land on grid, and not only the Tengu or the purifier as described above.

By engaging just the ratter, makes too easy to gankers/tacklers which has been the current mechanics. It would be nice have new mechanics for a change.

Everything should have a risk, to both rattler and trackler.

Evil


Is this a real post? Currently the only way a ratter gets killed by a ganker is if they are not paying attention because there is automatically a huge time window between a ganker entering local and actually being able to locate the ratter. If the ganker is able to even get on grid with the ratter, it still has to contend with the ratter's DPS, drones and whatever ewar it has fit. It is extremely common for the would-be ganker to get popped by drones or reinforcements arriving on grid.

I have no idea how you think that it's too easy for gankers at the moment because it is completely the opposite.


I'm sort of in agreement with skyLady.

The tackler should have a good chance of picking up agro from the rats. The chance of him picking up agro depends on the agro mechanics they are putting into this patch.

For example the above tengu/purifier.

When purifier showed up the purifier launched a bomb which probably picked up a fair bit of agro towards the rats aimed at him bad move.

The tengu continues to tank and pulls second wave. He has better chance of tanking these rats so smart move. The second wave may also not have any agro towards him (is agro stored by player or by rat wave?) this determines who they attack first. If the agro is stored by wave and killed off the first wave he effectively reset his agro (smart move).

Now the tengu needs to get rid of his agro so he stops shooting rats and starts shooting the purifier so he's not building any agro towards the rats. He should still have agro for a bit as he was shooting them more, how long that lasts is up to balance. After this agro wears off they have equal chance of getting focused.

There are also any other agro from rr/ew. The purifier was ew'ing the tengu which is a bad move currently (Ew'ing players should not cause agro with rats) as it caused him to pick up more agro. This also allows for situations such as a 2nd player showing up for one of the sides and pulling off the agro by rr'ing or sending one scram/web cycle at the rats.

Assuming neither are rr'ing players or ew'ing rats the agro should be equal. Which means it comes down to sig radius now tengu is 165 base and purifier is 37 so at this level cruisers/bs's should focus focus tengu and frigs go after the purifier. However if either of those where mwd'ing things change again. Tengu with mwd has 990 base which put's him way out of agro range of all rats. Purifier with mwd has 222 base which puts him above tengu base and into bs focus range.

We also may want to add standing into this mix somewhere to help see who get's agro first but that has some problems and it shouldn't be high on the list.



This new agro mechanic will pose some dangers and tacklers will need to learn how to manage the agro if they want to not be a rat's dinner. The situation here does need a couple balance fixes (ew against players) but you also need to adjust some of your actions: bomb'ing rats at the start of a battle is not a real good idea, careful using ew/rr, watch your and your targets sig radius etc.

It's a new system but their are ways to use it against your enemy for either the ratter or the tackler learn those then try again.


tl;dr: Adapt or Die to the new agro mechanics
Vatek
Rents Due Crew
#348 - 2012-10-26 22:12:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Vatek
How exactly is a tackler supposed to manage aggro? My objective is to kill the ratter, I'm putting my point and torpedoes on the ratter, what am I supposed to do, stop shooting him for a while while he shoots me back with heavy missiles and the rat frigates rip me to pieces with ewar and frigate-size weapons?

My tank against most ratter's dps and drones is a couple of minutes, tops. I have 18 volleys in my launchers and a rate of fire of around 7 seconds so I have somewhere in the neighbourhood of two minutes to execute a gank since I will probably not survive long enough to reload. I cannot afford to sit there for 30 seconds in a vain attempt to shift the rat aggro back onto the ratter.

Catching ratters is already extremely in the ratter's favor, they do not need to be protected by the same rats they're shooting. The only people suggesting that gankers should adapt or die are the ones who have never attempted to hunt ratters before. Ratting is already incredibly safe, there is no need at all to make it safer.
Adigard
RubberDuckies
#349 - 2012-10-26 22:30:07 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
I think the confusion may be that you have things backwards. Tippia very clearly stated in her first post (#216) that she flew a freshly trained Dominix. Dinsdale if I remember correctly did testing in an ishtar.


Indeed, Tippia apparently flew an AFK Domi into missions.
Singira
Heffalumps and Woozles.
#350 - 2012-10-26 22:36:11 UTC
Just about any rattingship that is not shitfit stands a fair chance against a lonely frig even with rats on him..
If you think it is too hard to look at local once every 30seconds, you can only blame yourself..
Most 0.0 alliances even have intel channels so getting caught in an anomaly really is inexcusable and can only be blamed on own carelessness..

In any case, there is no reason for rats to switch agro to a target that is not currently actively engaging them, or aiding their current target..
It just makes no sense..

Either way, removing scrams and disruptors from the NPC agrotable should fix the problem, so I don't really see the problem in having it fixed before expansion..
Vatek
Rents Due Crew
#351 - 2012-10-26 22:40:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Vatek
Removing tackle from the NPC aggro table would at least be a start.
Rengerel en Distel
#352 - 2012-10-27 00:58:21 UTC
Singira wrote:
Just about any rattingship that is not shitfit stands a fair chance against a lonely frig even with rats on him..
If you think it is too hard to look at local once every 30seconds, you can only blame yourself..
Most 0.0 alliances even have intel channels so getting caught in an anomaly really is inexcusable and can only be blamed on own carelessness..

In any case, there is no reason for rats to switch agro to a target that is not currently actively engaging them, or aiding their current target..
It just makes no sense..

Either way, removing scrams and disruptors from the NPC agrotable should fix the problem, so I don't really see the problem in having it fixed before expansion..


Perhaps you didn't read the devblog, but this is the first step into making the npc AI like pvp. They want all ships to be fit the same, no more pvp/pve fits. So eventually they'll make scrams/disruptors needed for pve content. They are a long way off, which is why some of us have said they should hold off on the change until they were further along towards that goal.


With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Adigard
RubberDuckies
#353 - 2012-10-27 01:02:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Adigard
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Perhaps you didn't read the devblog, but this is the first step into making the npc AI like pvp.


Ummm, I read the Dev Blog... did you? Did you happen to see what the second step was, or when it would occur, or how soon we'd see it, or when we'd see the eventual NPC AI be more PvP like?

Honestly just curious where you're drawing your insights from.

I'm personally all for them holding off on these changes, although we know that won't happen... and I don't see a future with a true universal PvE and PvP fit in a MMO, certainly not in this one.
Vatek
Rents Due Crew
#354 - 2012-10-27 01:34:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Vatek
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Perhaps you didn't read the devblog, but this is the first step into making the npc AI like pvp. They want all ships to be fit the same, no more pvp/pve fits. So eventually they'll make scrams/disruptors needed for pve content. They are a long way off, which is why some of us have said they should hold off on the change until they were further along towards that goal.


I would be very surprised if this ever happened because it's a pipe dream. Putting forward the suggestion that they want PVE fits to be the same as PVP is just CCP proving that they don't play their own game outside of the test servers.
Rengerel en Distel
#355 - 2012-10-27 02:05:01 UTC
Adigard wrote:
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Perhaps you didn't read the devblog, but this is the first step into making the npc AI like pvp.


Ummm, I read the Dev Blog... did you? Did you happen to see what the second step was, or when it would occur, or how soon we'd see it, or when we'd see the eventual NPC AI be more PvP like?

Honestly just curious where you're drawing your insights from.

I'm personally all for them holding off on these changes, although we know that won't happen... and I don't see a future with a true universal PvE and PvP fit in a MMO, certainly not in this one.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1947688#post1947688
There were others, but some of the content was edited out. I was never trying to say that i agreed with the direction, or that i thought it was going to be a quick process. I'd guess it'd be years, because they'd have to rewrite every mission in the game, and they don't seem to have the staff or desire to do that.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Adigard
RubberDuckies
#356 - 2012-10-27 02:50:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Adigard
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Adigard wrote:
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Perhaps you didn't read the devblog, but this is the first step into making the npc AI like pvp.


Ummm, I read the Dev Blog... did you? Did you happen to see what the second step was, or when it would occur, or how soon we'd see it, or when we'd see the eventual NPC AI be more PvP like?

Honestly just curious where you're drawing your insights from.

I'm personally all for them holding off on these changes, although we know that won't happen... and I don't see a future with a true universal PvE and PvP fit in a MMO, certainly not in this one.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1947688#post1947688
There were others, but some of the content was edited out. I was never trying to say that i agreed with the direction, or that i thought it was going to be a quick process. I'd guess it'd be years, because they'd have to rewrite every mission in the game, and they don't seem to have the staff or desire to do that.



Honestly I'm not so sure I'd take a short, off-the-cuff comment from a single Dev as gospel for the long term plans for a company with as many employees as CCP.

But who knows. Personally my guess is this is a one-off and we won't see any future iteration. FoxFour certainly hasn't been vocal about any future iteration plans once this one's live.
Risien Drogonne
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#357 - 2012-10-27 03:33:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Risien Drogonne
Vatek wrote:
SkyLady Audeles wrote:
Pretty hard to please all, however if taking into consideration balancing and fairness mechanics:

NPCs AI should make them engage and shoot any pilot without standing with them that land on grid, and not only the Tengu or the purifier as described above.

By engaging just the ratter, makes too easy to gankers/tacklers which has been the current mechanics. It would be nice have new mechanics for a change.

Everything should have a risk, to both rattler and trackler.

Evil


Is this a real post? Currently the only way a ratter gets killed by a ganker is if they are not paying attention because there is automatically a huge time window between a ganker entering local and actually being able to locate the ratter. If the ganker is able to even get on grid with the ratter, it still has to contend with the ratter's dps, drones and whatever ewar it has fit. It is extremely common for the would-be ganker to get popped by drones or reinforcements arriving on grid.

Even if I jump into a system, immediately hit the system scanner and warp to a random anom that the ratter just happens to be in, there is still more than enough of a window between the 10s scan time and the time it takes for my ship to land in the anom for the ratter to safely warp out. If by some stroke of luck I land in tackle range, there is still no guarantee that I will be able to pull off the gank or get away in the event of a trap or inability to break the ratter's tank.

I have no idea how you think that it's too easy for gankers at the moment because it is completely the opposite. If rat dps and ewar gets added to the mix it just becomes impossible.

Why should the rats always help you kill the ratter? That lets you kill the ratter in a far-underclassed ship, which hasn't exactly been fair.

Fair would be about half of the rats switching to the guy killing the ratter. It would force you to take a ship that can handle aggro into a fight with tons of hostile ships all around you. I can't see that as anything but fair.

It only becomes "impossible" if you're trying to gank that battleship in your little frigate. And to that I say... boofrickinhoo.
Singira
Heffalumps and Woozles.
#358 - 2012-10-27 06:07:24 UTC
Risien Drogonne wrote:
Vatek wrote:
SkyLady Audeles wrote:
Pretty hard to please all, however if taking into consideration balancing and fairness mechanics:

NPCs AI should make them engage and shoot any pilot without standing with them that land on grid, and not only the Tengu or the purifier as described above.

By engaging just the ratter, makes too easy to gankers/tacklers which has been the current mechanics. It would be nice have new mechanics for a change.

Everything should have a risk, to both rattler and trackler.

Evil


Is this a real post? Currently the only way a ratter gets killed by a ganker is if they are not paying attention because there is automatically a huge time window between a ganker entering local and actually being able to locate the ratter. If the ganker is able to even get on grid with the ratter, it still has to contend with the ratter's dps, drones and whatever ewar it has fit. It is extremely common for the would-be ganker to get popped by drones or reinforcements arriving on grid.

Even if I jump into a system, immediately hit the system scanner and warp to a random anom that the ratter just happens to be in, there is still more than enough of a window between the 10s scan time and the time it takes for my ship to land in the anom for the ratter to safely warp out. If by some stroke of luck I land in tackle range, there is still no guarantee that I will be able to pull off the gank or get away in the event of a trap or inability to break the ratter's tank.

I have no idea how you think that it's too easy for gankers at the moment because it is completely the opposite. If rat dps and ewar gets added to the mix it just becomes impossible.

Why should the rats always help you kill the ratter? That lets you kill the ratter in a far-underclassed ship, which hasn't exactly been fair.

Fair would be about half of the rats switching to the guy killing the ratter. It would force you to take a ship that can handle aggro into a fight with tons of hostile ships all around you. I can't see that as anything but fair.

It only becomes "impossible" if you're trying to gank that battleship in your little frigate. And to that I say... boofrickinhoo.


Why do you think the rats should turn from the guy killing them, to the guy helping them?
That does not make a lot of sense from any viewpoint other than the afk ratter that rather would do a lot of other things than play the game..
Mund Richard
#359 - 2012-10-27 08:03:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Singira wrote:
Why do you think the rats should turn from the guy killing them, to the guy helping them?
That does not make a lot of sense from any viewpoint other than the afk ratter that rather would do a lot of other things than play the game..

Had this already before a few times in a few of these threads.

Let's see...
If you have hostiles entering your turf, agressing some of your guys, then some of their enemies who are also red or at least not blue for you start killing them, what do you do?
A) Start killing the new guys? - probably not
B) Kill the first guys? - possibly
C) Let the two sides duke it out, and then kill the ones who remain? - my choice, now with 100% more popcorn! Twisted

Ofc rats cannot be trained to do C), not without giving even more chance for abuse, but why would they not mind someone else entering their "own turn".
Now if you did have +5 standings with them (which I never had), they should indeed help you, but I don't think the majority complaining about these changes has that.



Aside from that, might have been me misunderstanding, but if even BC/BS sized opponents swapped while the Tengu did dps to them (and possibly better than the SB to the Tengu which should be irrelevant in the first place), now there's an issue.
Oh wait...

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Singira
Heffalumps and Woozles.
#360 - 2012-10-27 11:50:20 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Singira wrote:
Why do you think the rats should turn from the guy killing them, to the guy helping them?
That does not make a lot of sense from any viewpoint other than the afk ratter that rather would do a lot of other things than play the game..

Had this already before a few times in a few of these threads.

Let's see...
If you have hostiles entering your turf, agressing some of your guys, then some of their enemies who are also red or at least not blue for you start killing them, what do you do?
A) Start killing the new guys? - probably not
B) Kill the first guys? - possibly
C) Let the two sides duke it out, and then kill the ones who remain? - my choice, now with 100% more popcorn! Twisted

Ofc rats cannot be trained to do C), not without giving even more chance for abuse, but why would they not mind someone else entering their "own turn".
Now if you did have +5 standings with them (which I never had), they should indeed help you, but I don't think the majority complaining about these changes has that.



Aside from that, might have been me misunderstanding, but if even BC/BS sized opponents swapped while the Tengu did dps to them (and possibly better than the SB to the Tengu which should be irrelevant in the first place), now there's an issue.
Oh wait...


These are NPC's not red guys or neutral guys..
If you wish to treat this like PvP then all rats should warpscramble, all the time..
I seriously doubt this is something you wish for..
I can see the fun in that tho..
Would make catching ratters a LOT easier and I guess I could swap out the frig for something that could tank the rats a bit if I knew my ratter targets couldn't just run off when I jumped into system..

However this is not the issue at hand..
The issue is that the agro is currently distrubuted in a wierd way..
Please stick to that instead of pretending this is fleet warfare, because it is not.. Far from it..