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[Winter] Changes to NPC AI

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Rengerel en Distel
#741 - 2013-01-01 14:04:47 UTC
Makavi Astro wrote:
I actually like that: "we won't be able to do 10/10's with <10 people"
That brings some extreme challenge.
" let's what you will do having 5-6 scrams and webs on you, with citadels hitting your ship.."
Great! There will be at least something impossible!

Some stuff will be too hard, but who said you MUST be able to go through anything? Why not having some stuff people actually sweat trying to get over?
It would be to see talks like these: "hey you know I survived 4:39 minutes in that complex!" "Wow that is some hardcore stuff!"

I really would like to see some if that.
Also about drones.. I fly arbitrator, and this change will affect me, and it will be more exciting to use them, I will need more caution fielding them.
I see this: "so I won't be able to AFK in a Dominix?"
Wtf?? Are you playing a game to be away from keyboard? Really? I think they should introduce space dragons, they fly around and eat AFKers.

But drones getting some buff would be cool xD, since we are going to loose them.


It's amazing, that even 740 posts in, people don't seem to realize that the afk domi was BUFFED with the changes.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
DSpite Culhach
#742 - 2013-01-01 14:28:16 UTC
Vatek wrote:
Adigard wrote:
Viribus wrote:
Old players will almost always be able to adapt but this (unneeded and unwanted) change has basically destroyed two avenues of PVP and income for new players


Not sure what to tell you? The Dev response on that front has been somewhere between "adapt or quit, we don't care" and "If you really really enjoyed it before we nerfed it, you'll find a way to enjoy it now, even though we made it harder for no good reason".

Honestly I have a hard time envisioning CCP adapting their new spaghetti code placed hodge-podge on top of their ancient spaghetti code to fix this one. I doubt they even understand the new rat AI code, considering how ham-fisted it's been implemented (see the tests run on the new AI). Also, see Malcanis's Law.


Sorry, but no.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2158421#post2158421

We were promised specific PVP fixes that were to go live "after Retribution". Retribution has launched, it's time to provide a timeline as to when we can expect these changes.


Then technically, if you came in and shot me running a mission, I stopped shooting the rats, switched on ECM so that rats have harder time hitting me, then target painted you, the rats will still target me because "I shot them last", rather then realize better targets are here.

Every one seems to still want predictable AI NPC ships so that by using the same tactic over and over they can get easy kills.

If I was in a Golem, in mission, and got player attacked, I'm pretty sure that when I stick 3 target painters on that player ship, the NPC ships should be wetting their panties over the massive target I just offered them, and switch away from me.

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
Mund Richard
#743 - 2013-01-01 19:13:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
DSpite Culhach wrote:
Then technically, if you came in and shot me running a mission, I stopped shooting the rats, switched on ECM so that rats have harder time hitting me, then target painted you, the rats will still target me because "I shot them last", rather then realize better targets are here.

OR, they will shoot you, because you shot EWAR effects last.
Who knows?

Funny how when an SB warps in and uncloaks, he gets tackled for his EWAR on you, and then agro might snap back because of your EWAR painting on him.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
DSpite Culhach
#744 - 2013-01-02 06:07:48 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
DSpite Culhach wrote:
Then technically, if you came in and shot me running a mission, I stopped shooting the rats, switched on ECM so that rats have harder time hitting me, then target painted you, the rats will still target me because "I shot them last", rather then realize better targets are here.

OR, they will shoot you, because you shot EWAR effects last.
Who knows?

Funny how when an SB warps in and uncloaks, he gets tackled for his EWAR on you, and then agro might snap back because of your EWAR painting on him.


I'm not saying the rules makes sense. Rats should not see any ewar not aimed at them, and when player fights start they should be getting the hell out of there, and not shoot at anyone.

It's all script working on weird logic. Just look at faction police/concord nuking people at gates because a slider had been pushed too high.

This game revolves around players hunting other players when they know they have better then 3:1 odd of a kill. Anything that skews that even further by making use of dodgy AI logic is not to be encouraged.

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
Mund Richard
#745 - 2013-01-02 11:10:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
DSpite Culhach wrote:
I'm not saying the rules makes sense. Rats should not see any ewar not aimed at them, and when player fights start they should be getting the hell out of there, and not shoot at anyone.
The first part is in the works with CCP, just when they tried to implement it, the whole thing blew in their face on their internal server, so they have to do it from scratch.

The second part, rats GTFO-ing...
That would lead to horrible trolling! Imagine two troll alts going into your nice little HiSec carebear room, start shooting at each other, and scaring away all the horrible pirates you were trying to kill.
Heck, it would be the perfect Blitz strategy! Twisted
Rats abandoning their operations due to capsuleers engaging each other makes less sense when they don't do it after 95% of their ships were blown up. They are greedy like that, defending to the last man.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
DSpite Culhach
#746 - 2013-01-02 17:29:27 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
DSpite Culhach wrote:
I'm not saying the rules makes sense. Rats should not see any ewar not aimed at them, and when player fights start they should be getting the hell out of there, and not shoot at anyone.
The first part is in the works with CCP, just when they tried to implement it, the whole thing blew in their face on their internal server, so they have to do it from scratch.

The second part, rats GTFO-ing...
That would lead to horrible trolling! Imagine two troll alts going into your nice little HiSec carebear room, start shooting at each other, and scaring away all the horrible pirates you were trying to kill.
Heck, it would be the perfect Blitz strategy! Twisted
Rats abandoning their operations due to capsuleers engaging each other makes less sense when they don't do it after 95% of their ships were blown up. They are greedy like that, defending to the last man.


To tell you the truth, if weird things happened every so often, the universe would feel more alive. It's the hard scripted predictability with the added player base sticking to a handful of tactics that's causing massive amounts of deja-vu. If this was The Matrix. I'd be calling for an exit.

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
Mund Richard
#747 - 2013-01-02 20:39:07 UTC
DSpite Culhach wrote:
To tell you the truth, if weird things happened every so often, the universe would feel more alive. It's the hard scripted predictability with the added player base sticking to a handful of tactics that's causing massive amounts of deja-vu. If this was The Matrix. I'd be calling for an exit.

Weird things are fun.
Weird things that affect profit in a negative way less so. Roll
Unusual things affecting profit in a positive way tended to happen mostly out in null to me.
Well, extra waves spawning in Scarlet in High were also there, unexpected, fun, and profitable.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
zeberath
Welcome to Rokkenjima
#748 - 2013-01-13 04:01:59 UTC
Is signature radius considered as size of the ship?
Junko Sideswipe
Love Squad
#749 - 2013-01-19 16:32:36 UTC
Is FoxFour's team still even assigned to this? I see Fozzie posting in the sticky up top about reducing aggro to drones, but haven't heard a peep about player ship aggression.

PIZZA CEO
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#750 - 2013-01-19 16:36:38 UTC
Junko Sideswipe wrote:
Is FoxFour's team still even assigned to this? I see Fozzie posting in the sticky up top about reducing aggro to drones, but haven't heard a peep about player ship aggression.


Team Five-0 is the team still assigned to this. After Retribution we made some changes to teams though for the new year and I am now on team True Grit working on the EVE - DUST link. Fozzie and Affinity are both now on Five-0 giving Five-0 four designers now.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
jimbolina
Doomheim
#751 - 2013-01-22 15:47:15 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Junko Sideswipe wrote:
Is FoxFour's team still even assigned to this? I see Fozzie posting in the sticky up top about reducing aggro to drones, but haven't heard a peep about player ship aggression.


Team Five-0 is the team still assigned to this. After Retribution we made some changes to teams though for the new year and I am now on team True Grit working on the EVE - DUST link. Fozzie and Affinity are both now on Five-0 giving Five-0 four designers now.


Let me see if i got this right.

You came in, do some tests on us, players on TQ, saw your experiment went wrong, couldn't find solution, did't want to admit failure and you needed more time because this your 'feature' was in pre alpha faze and still is, and simple went to work on different stuff.

Why for the love of god You don't want to be honest with us, we can understand, making stuff in EVE is not easy job, and admit yours errors. Why are you forcing your nonworking ideas on us
Adigard
RubberDuckies
#752 - 2013-02-10 00:08:17 UTC
jimbolina wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Junko Sideswipe wrote:
Is FoxFour's team still even assigned to this? I see Fozzie posting in the sticky up top about reducing aggro to drones, but haven't heard a peep about player ship aggression.


Team Five-0 is the team still assigned to this. After Retribution we made some changes to teams though for the new year and I am now on team True Grit working on the EVE - DUST link. Fozzie and Affinity are both now on Five-0 giving Five-0 four designers now.


Let me see if i got this right.

You came in, do some tests on us, players on TQ, saw your experiment went wrong, couldn't find solution, did't want to admit failure and you needed more time because this your 'feature' was in pre alpha faze and still is, and simple went to work on different stuff.

Why for the love of god You don't want to be honest with us, we can understand, making stuff in EVE is not easy job, and admit yours errors. Why are you forcing your nonworking ideas on us


He was part of the team that broke Incarna, what would you expect?
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#753 - 2013-02-15 16:43:54 UTC
I was one of the first that railed against this disaster, but thought today, hey, I have Dread Scarlett as a mission, why not take out T2 Gardes, with, massive EHP bonuses provided my my max-skilled Proteus.

It has been a disaster.
I have had to bring in my Gardes over 20 times since the NPC's switch aggro in less than a minute, usually instantly.
Only reason I have killed anything is because the Gardes have absorbed so much punishment.
I did not use Hobs at all, since they would have been instapopped, and Ogre's would never make it to a target orbiting 37 km away, let alone get back.

The mission took over twice as long as it did pre AI armageddon.
It has cut my PvE income in half, plus increased my costs with new drones and drone repairs.

This alteration of the AI was never about wrecking afk missioning, or providing more entertainment.
It was designed as a direct attack against PvE income, nothing more.

It is one of the reasons CCP refuses to release monthly PvE income pre and post Dec 2012.
People stating " you have wrecked my game-play" can always be countered by one of their stooges, and no proof is required on either side.

But altering hard evidence is a dangerous game if ever caught.
It is far safer not to release the hard data at all.