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A "Ganker's" View on Mining "Buffs"

Author
Herr Hammer Draken
#81 - 2012-09-24 21:59:10 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
To the op:

You high-seccers are not doing your job very well. Many systems have been striped of assets recently.
So I went about searching for who is doing it. I found several roaming bands of Goons usually 300 to a titan.
They go into a system about 20000 strong and clear out all of the infracstructure in short order. Then like a locust move on to the next one.
Note we are not talking about buffed T2's or even faction ships, but the cheap T1 BS's. And they are still max kill fit. You miners are just a lazy bunch that are to lazy to go look for the Goons and hunt them down.

As far as your deer hunting story goes. You guys are drinking too much beer on the job then you go out to your favorite tree stand and wait for the prey. Guess what those Goons that you like to hunt have all moved on and you are still sitting in the same damned tree. Get off your ass and go get them.


I fixed it for ya. Blink


Thats funny but it does not fit this thread.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"

Rikiri Kardo
Warriors of the Dark Vale
#82 - 2012-09-24 22:04:55 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Rikiri Kardo wrote:
OP, your post makes sense to a degree, but ask a carrier pigeon about over hunting. Oh, wait...

Ask a Wall Street Tycoon about runaway dellation...oh wait.

Do you really think miners can be ganked to extinction?

You really give your fellow [edit: mining] capsuleers a lot of credit!


Um, why did you assume I mine. You do know what happens when you assume things, right? Have a great day! :)
Arec Bardwin
#83 - 2012-09-24 22:05:42 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
I didn't read the thread yet but I'm willing to wager half of the thread is npc alt miners whining and posting the same terrible arguments over and over again.
So, much like the gankers then? Roll
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2012-09-24 22:09:29 UTC
Arec Bardwin wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
I didn't read the thread yet but I'm willing to wager half of the thread is npc alt miners whining and posting the same terrible arguments over and over again.
So, much like the gankers then? Roll



[X] Member of NPC corp,
[X] Terrible at posting,
[X] Thinks their opinion matters.

Maybe CCP will patch posting so you miners won't have so much trouble forming intelligent arguments and corroborating them.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133

malcovas Henderson
THoF
#85 - 2012-09-24 22:30:12 UTC
La Nariz wrote:


[X] Member of NPC corp,
[X] Terrible at posting,
[X] Thinks their opinion matters.

Maybe CCP will patch posting so you miners won't have so much trouble forming intelligent arguments and corroborating them.



[X] Member of Goonswarm.
[X] Terrible at trolling
[X] Thinks their opinion is the only opinion

Maybe CCP will patch posting so you troll's won't have so much trouble finding something original to debunk an arguement other than "NPC corp herp de derp!!!!"



o7
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2012-09-24 22:48:19 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
You know I'd think CCP would want miners being ganked as it makes the mining bot problem less significant, it helps to keep the profession's income up, it helps the economy, and it provides amusement to people who patiently must wait a year or two for CCP to fix the part of the game they live in. I'm to lazy to look up the quote for moronic npc alts but I remember somewhere a CCP guy saying that it was currently too difficult to differentiate between an actual miner and a bot so I'll leave this screenshot here as an example of the state of this problem.

http://imgur.com/DbL17

For those that have trouble understanding, look at what is typed and look at what the search box suggests, I'm surprised it is so high in the suggestions.

Revert mining ship EHP buffs (except for the procuror and skiff).

"Eve ratting" had "Eve ratting bot" as the 2nd suggestion. Botting is not a problem isolated to mining and exhumer EHP being what it was didn't stop people from doing it before. Additionally given the evidence of the number of mining bots banned (mining bot forum comments, etc) it would suggest that their detection methods have improved or the comment was inaccurate.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#87 - 2012-09-24 23:19:45 UTC
Ana Vyr wrote:
I like mining. I'd go as far as saying its my main playstyle at the moment.

The thought of logging in to play sickly deer for some coward pvp wannabes is terrible. You gankers are just incapable of seeing this from the other side. You would destroy the game just so you can shoot ships that can't fight back. Pathetic.


I like mining, and I liked mining even more when cowards like you weren't mining. Suicide ganking of mining barges is probably the lowest form of PvP activity in the game, but mining is the lowest form of PvE activity in the game so they're a perfect match.

If you wouldn't even do a little bit of research to understand what gankers are doing and what their limits were, you don't belong in space flying a mining barge or exhumer. The simple facts of the matter were that a single catalyst would top out at about 10k damage. They made their profit from salvage and the very expensive T2 mining and ice harvesting equipment that many people were using to maximise their yield. All you needed to do was fit some tank at the expense of yield. Even 12k EHP would have been enough since most gankers were solo operators.

In addition, you can watch the belts, see who the gankers are, set their standings low so you see the orange or red indicator on their name in local, and make sure you keep your eyes open for their presence. But apparently even this tiny amount of effort was too much for some people: you bad miners were so fixated on maximum yield that you wouldn't take simple precautions because fitting a tank would cost you too much yield. Paying attention to the game every now and then would cost you more time and reduce your semi-AFK mining ISK/keyboard-hour ratio. So instead you unsubscribed and stated that your reason for unsubscribing was suicide ganking.

CCP destroyed my game to win back your subscription. The result is a situation much worse than suicide ganking ever was.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#88 - 2012-09-24 23:23:01 UTC
^^ the worst of it is that for a good few months the gankers we're giving the gankees all the information they needed to avoid exploding.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Herr Hammer Draken
#89 - 2012-09-25 00:28:09 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Ana Vyr wrote:
I like mining. I'd go as far as saying its my main playstyle at the moment.

The thought of logging in to play sickly deer for some coward pvp wannabes is terrible. You gankers are just incapable of seeing this from the other side. You would destroy the game just so you can shoot ships that can't fight back. Pathetic.


I like mining, and I liked mining even more when cowards like you weren't mining. Suicide ganking of mining barges is probably the lowest form of PvP activity in the game, but mining is the lowest form of PvE activity in the game so they're a perfect match.

If you wouldn't even do a little bit of research to understand what gankers are doing and what their limits were, you don't belong in space flying a mining barge or exhumer. The simple facts of the matter were that a single catalyst would top out at about 10k damage. They made their profit from salvage and the very expensive T2 mining and ice harvesting equipment that many people were using to maximise their yield. All you needed to do was fit some tank at the expense of yield. Even 12k EHP would have been enough since most gankers were solo operators.

In addition, you can watch the belts, see who the gankers are, set their standings low so you see the orange or red indicator on their name in local, and make sure you keep your eyes open for their presence. But apparently even this tiny amount of effort was too much for some people: you bad miners were so fixated on maximum yield that you wouldn't take simple precautions because fitting a tank would cost you too much yield. Paying attention to the game every now and then would cost you more time and reduce your semi-AFK mining ISK/keyboard-hour ratio. So instead you unsubscribed and stated that your reason for unsubscribing was suicide ganking.

CCP destroyed my game to win back your subscription. The result is a situation much worse than suicide ganking ever was.



And you sound like you have no clue at all that the hulks are still flying at max yield around eve. Makes me wonder if you ever were a ganker. Maybe only a fair weather ganker. Just like every one else in eve you only look in the 4 or 5 systems around you and say all of eve is like this because it is so where I live. Get out of your tree stand and open your eyes.

Wait lets whine to CCP maybe they will fix it so hulks fly around in my system again so I can gank them.
I have none zero sympathy for you.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"

Toshiroma McDiesel
Lupus Draconis
The Skeleton Crew
#90 - 2012-09-25 00:52:45 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
You want to know why CCP buffed mining barges?

For the lulz my friend, for the lulz. Lol



Of course, look at all the tears it generated, and everyone know CCP is run on TEARS Pirate

I"m not really the Evil One, I'm just his answering service.

Tesal
#91 - 2012-09-25 04:33:13 UTC
There were too many gankers is all. It was unbalanced. So it got nerfed like ALWAYS happens when things get unbalanced. Effective gankers have already moved on to freighters. If that gets out of control, it will get nerfed too. You are living in the past, move on already.
Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
#92 - 2012-09-25 05:07:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Bart Starr
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Ana Vyr wrote:
I like mining. I'd go as far as saying its my main playstyle at the moment.

The thought of logging in to play sickly deer for some coward pvp wannabes is terrible. You gankers are just incapable of seeing this from the other side. You would destroy the game just so you can shoot ships that can't fight back. Pathetic.


I like mining, and I liked mining even more when cowards like you weren't mining. Suicide ganking of mining barges is probably the lowest form of PvP activity in the game, but mining is the lowest form of PvE activity in the game so they're a perfect match.

If you wouldn't even do a little bit of research to understand what gankers are doing and what their limits were, you don't belong in space flying a mining barge or exhumer. The simple facts of the matter were that a single catalyst would top out at about 10k damage. They made their profit from salvage and the very expensive T2 mining and ice harvesting equipment that many people were using to maximise their yield. All you needed to do was fit some tank at the expense of yield. Even 12k EHP would have been enough since most gankers were solo operators.

In addition, you can watch the belts, see who the gankers are, set their standings low so you see the orange or red indicator on their name in local, and make sure you keep your eyes open for their presence. But apparently even this tiny amount of effort was too much for some people: you bad miners were so fixated on maximum yield that you wouldn't take simple precautions because fitting a tank would cost you too much yield. Paying attention to the game every now and then would cost you more time and reduce your semi-AFK mining ISK/keyboard-hour ratio. So instead you unsubscribed and stated that your reason for unsubscribing was suicide ganking.

CCP destroyed my game to win back your subscription. The result is a situation much worse than suicide ganking ever was.



And you sound like you have no clue at all that the hulks are still flying at max yield around eve. Makes me wonder if you ever were a ganker. Maybe only a fair weather ganker. Just like every one else in eve you only look in the 4 or 5 systems around you and say all of eve is like this because it is so where I live. Get out of your tree stand and open your eyes.

Wait lets whine to CCP maybe they will fix it so hulks fly around in my system again so I can gank them.
I have none zero sympathy for you.


Damn you can't even troll right "Herr Hammer Draken."

Mara Rinn isn't a ganker, dumbass. She's a miner - one of the smart ones that managed to adapt. I know, because I regularly cleared the ice belts in her area. I killed dozens of miners in each session, but she never got popped because she tanked well and alert. She would sit there broadcasting warnings to others in local.

[ 2012.07.21 22:14:49 ] EVE System > Channel changed to Local : Aydoteaux
[ 2012.07.21 23:50:18 ] Cindy Yakuza > Buck Futz Herr Wilkus
[ 2012.07.22 00:22:40 ] Mara Rinn > Buck Futz GCC has expired, if your exhumer's tank is less than 10k EHP, watch out :)
[ 2012.07.22 01:22:31 ] Mara Rinn > Tyyrl Monntar, are you awake? Herr Wilkus decloaked right next to you.
[ 2012.07.22 01:22:50 ] Tyyrl Monntar > i'm here
[ 2012.07.22 01:23:40 ] Mara Rinn > Herr Wilkus is Buck Futz's warp-in/salvaging buddy

CCP's half-assed 'barge balance' turned highsec into an AFK-mining paradise and ice values have crashed through the floor. Playing smart (as a miner) doesn't really count for anything anymore, simply because the lazy miners whined for game changes that almost completely removed the last threat high-sec miners faced.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#93 - 2012-09-25 06:11:04 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Tesal wrote:
There were too many gankers is all. It was unbalanced. So it got nerfed like ALWAYS happens when things get unbalanced. Effective gankers have already moved on to freighters. If that gets out of control, it will get nerfed too. You are living in the past, move on already.


Funny thing about this is that outside of hulkageddon and the Galente ice interdiction there were no more than 30 to 40 people ganking miners and that it was only widespread on the forums. Ships such as ruptures were dieing in much greater numbers.
Jori McKie
Know your Role
Pandemic Horde
#94 - 2012-09-25 09:00:17 UTC
The really funnny thing is as the op mentioned, prices for mined stuff will fall. Just check any isotopes, Helium, Oxy etc. Prices are free falling and will be soon under 300 ISK pu (right now Helium sell orders are hovering barely over 400 ISK pu), the same will happen to any highsec minerals it just will take a little longer and yes we will see 3 ISK Trit again in a few months.
As an intelligent miner i would be pissed as hell as the barge buff literally killed my income. As a PvP'ler i'm very happy, cheap isotopes and cheap ships.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar

Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
The Initiative.
#95 - 2012-09-25 09:14:21 UTC
Miners: WE WANT A ! WE WANT A! WE WANT A! EVE IS DYING WITHOUT A! WE ARE ALL GOING TO UNSUBSCRIBE IF YOU DO NOT GIVE US A!

CCP goes into conclave, white smoke is seen by the bystanders...soon after: "Habemus A"

Miners: Well Gangers CCP loves us and you are going south "CHEERS"

...in the meanwhile, easily predictable, prices for barges and exhumers (except the now nearly extinct Hulk) freaking skyrocket(another bonus for T2 production)!! Barges get that expensive that destroyers keep being the weapon of choice.
On the other hand, again easily predictable, mineral prices drop, prices for Ice-related products drop (I hope you all cleared your hangars before) and so it begins...the great shitstorm...oh wait...

Miners: OMG CCP hates us they gave us what we wanted, the single most buff to a profession in EVE history but we wand MORE..WE WANT AA! WE WANT AA! EVE IS DYING WITHOUT AA! WE ARE ALL GOING TO UNSUBSCRIBE IF YOU DO NOT GIVE US AA!

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP

Borisk Zeltsh
Alcohlics Anonymous
#96 - 2012-09-25 12:55:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Borisk Zeltsh
Darth Gustav wrote:
Let me start by stating that this is all the opinion of a part-time lulz-ganker based on observation of the past year's "progress" in the development of both Eve Online's community, as well as the game itself. Since I am not a miner, no doubt many will chime in with the proverbial "Nuh uh!" They are free to do so, of course, but I feel this reaction will be at the cost of their own enjoyment of Eve Online at a minimum, and possibly even their own enlightenment.

Let's start with my premise: Every system responds to pressure. This is true in video games, nature, even in your pressure cooker. Deer herds are a good example of systems responding to various pressures. Deer have finite natural resources with which to survive, in much the same way that Eve Online has finite resources. Some may say the resources are infinite, but that is only taken over an eternity. Eve's resources are clearly finite, even if renewable. The same can be said of the acorns and plant material upon which deer feed.

Let's look more closely at what happens to deer populations in response to certain pressures, shall we?

When a population of deer is actively hunted (be it by man or by beast), the overall health and happiness of the herd actually improves. This seems counter-intuitive! Surely some hunter out shooting deer for lulz (or food, doesn't matter) can't benefit the overall well-being of the herd...but he does. The reason is obvious: Killing one deer has negligible impact on the demand placed on resources required by the herd, but those resources are shared between fewer deer. This means the population is happier, save for the trophy-mounted (or stew-kettle-consigned) victim.

However, when a population of deer is allowed to range free from predation, they multiply faster. This has little change on the overall demand for natural resources, but the resources available for each individual are less. This means that the herd's health suffers when they are not hunted; both from malnutrition and from disease. This is because deer have no mechanism for controlling the size of their own herd. All they do is react to the environment around them and try to survive as well as possible.

Now let's look at how this counterintuitive fact might apply to Eve.

When a population of miners is actively hunted (be it by null-sec pilots, low-sec pirates, or high-sec mercenaries), the overall wealth and happiness of the mining community actually improves. This is because the demand for ships continues to be mostly unaffected by the minute loss of one pilot. But with that pilot's loss of resolve, more ore is available for less people to mine. This means miners are happier, save for the killboard-pasted victim.

However, when a population of miners is allowed to mine free from ganks, they multiply faster. This has little change on the overall demand for ships and modules, but the resources available for each miner are less. Consequently, miners make less ISK for the same effort. This is because miners as a group refuse to use the mechanism designed for controlling the size of their, erm, herd. All they do is react to the environment around them with cries of, "Nef gankers!" and, "Buff mining!"

The similarities between these two systems are actually quite astonishing.

It is my belief that this is an example of the "negative pressure" at work in any system involving gatherers and predators. It appears to an "outsider" (or to those who don't or won't think critically) that hunting/ganking is a "big deal" but in fact the overabundance of gatherers exerts far more pressure on the system than the hunters/gankers do. This creates a system where the results are predictably counterintuitive: In order to help the gatherers be happier as a group, it is absolutely necessary to lower their overall threshold for individual survival. In game terms, this would mean that the only way to actually "BUFF MINING!" is to nerf it. Conversely, the only way to nerf mining is to buff it.

We will see in the next year if this is an accurate appraisal of the current situation. I sincerely hope that tritanium doesn't fall below 3 ISK like I think it will. Further, I hope that ice doesn't become so worthless that managing a network of a few dozen large POS is trivial. I can potentially see the day coming when the overall health of Eve ssuffers if CCP doesn't stop pandering to our gatherer-class. In terms of long-term health of the system, it may be much more viable to support the culling of that population routinely rather than capitulate to their ill-conceived cries about "fairness" in a video game where they deliberately choose to be the deer and complain that the wolves' teeth and claws are too sharp and penetrate their dainty skin (hulls!?!) too easily.

TL;DR: I'm pretty sure that there's only one way to keep miners happy for an extended period of time in Eve. Counter-intuitively, that is to nerf mining rather than buff it.




100% agree even tho ppl cant see wot yor saying I.E the deer will cry coz to many them and min price drop

and yes miners and such ARE the bottom of the food chain they might build out stuff but they mian resone for beeing is as prey for pvper b it gutluss hi-sec pvper or cunning emp ganker or oputinist pirate industrials are bottom of the food chain

lo-sec best sec Yaaarrr

also many other points but drunk as skink on rum so fck it
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#97 - 2012-09-25 13:19:29 UTC
So many miners in this thread gloating that the gankers can no longer kill them

I hope they come back to gloat in a few months when they have pushed trit prices through the floor

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#98 - 2012-09-25 15:01:11 UTC
Skippermonkey wrote:
So many miners in this thread gloating that the gankers can no longer kill them

I hope they come back to gloat in a few months when they have pushed trit prices through the floor


They have already undone all of the benefits my corp provided them at the start of the year. Caldari Ice is 1/3 the price it was when this barge change hit.
PI Maker
Doomheim
#99 - 2012-09-25 15:04:38 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
You know I'd think CCP would want miners being ganked as it makes the mining bot problem less significant, it helps to keep the profession's income up, it helps the economy, and it provides amusement to people who patiently must wait a year or two for CCP to fix the part of the game they live in. I'm to lazy to look up the quote for moronic npc alts but I remember somewhere a CCP guy saying that it was currently too difficult to differentiate between an actual miner and a bot so I'll leave this screenshot here as an example of the state of this problem.

http://imgur.com/DbL17

For those that have trouble understanding, look at what is typed and look at what the search box suggests, I'm surprised it is so high in the suggestions.

Revert mining ship EHP buffs (except for the procuror and skiff).

why don't you and your buddies stop whining and bring out a destroyer fleet? can you seriously not get 5 or 6 goons in destroyers together to do some ganking of miners? can a 6k man alliance not put together 250 destroyer alts? have the goons been neutered by a simple EHP buff? is that all it took to turn you guys into whiny babies? where the **** is your emergent gameplay?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#100 - 2012-09-25 15:11:54 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
PI Maker wrote:

why don't you and your buddies stop whining and bring out a destroyer fleet? can you seriously not get 5 or 6 goons in destroyers together to do some ganking of miners? can a 6k man alliance not put together 250 destroyer alts? have the goons been neutered by a simple EHP buff? is that all it took to turn you guys into whiny babies? where the **** is your emergent gameplay?


We only ganked miners because it was profitable. The EHP buff means that macks are no longer profitable to gank so we no longer gank them. This is something miners have never been able to grasp for some reason.

The EHP of the mack also means that the skiff, a ship built for greater protection from ganks, is pointless.