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A "Ganker's" View on Mining "Buffs"

Author
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#1 - 2012-09-23 21:17:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Let me start by stating that this is all the opinion of a part-time lulz-ganker based on observation of the past year's "progress" in the development of both Eve Online's community, as well as the game itself. Since I am not a miner, no doubt many will chime in with the proverbial "Nuh uh!" They are free to do so, of course, but I feel this reaction will be at the cost of their own enjoyment of Eve Online at a minimum, and possibly even their own enlightenment.

Let's start with my premise: Every system responds to pressure. This is true in video games, nature, even in your pressure cooker. Deer herds are a good example of systems responding to various pressures. Deer have finite natural resources with which to survive, in much the same way that Eve Online has finite resources. Some may say the resources are infinite, but that is only taken over an eternity. Eve's resources are clearly finite, even if renewable. The same can be said of the acorns and plant material upon which deer feed.

Let's look more closely at what happens to deer populations in response to certain pressures, shall we?

When a population of deer is actively hunted (be it by man or by beast), the overall health and happiness of the herd actually improves. This seems counter-intuitive! Surely some hunter out shooting deer for lulz (or food, doesn't matter) can't benefit the overall well-being of the herd...but he does. The reason is obvious: Killing one deer has negligible impact on the demand placed on resources required by the herd, but those resources are shared between fewer deer. This means the population is happier, save for the trophy-mounted (or stew-kettle-consigned) victim.

However, when a population of deer is allowed to range free from predation, they multiply faster. This has little change on the overall demand for natural resources, but the resources available for each individual are less. This means that the herd's health suffers when they are not hunted; both from malnutrition and from disease. This is because deer have no mechanism for controlling the size of their own herd. All they do is react to the environment around them and try to survive as well as possible.

Now let's look at how this counterintuitive fact might apply to Eve.

When a population of miners is actively hunted (be it by null-sec pilots, low-sec pirates, or high-sec mercenaries), the overall wealth and happiness of the mining community actually improves. This is because the demand for ships continues to be mostly unaffected by the minute loss of one pilot. But with that pilot's loss of resolve, more ore is available for less people to mine. This means miners are happier, save for the killboard-pasted victim.

However, when a population of miners is allowed to mine free from ganks, they multiply faster. This has little change on the overall demand for ships and modules, but the resources available for each miner are less. Consequently, miners make less ISK for the same effort. This is because miners as a group refuse to use the mechanism designed for controlling the size of their, erm, herd. All they do is react to the environment around them with cries of, "Nef gankers!" and, "Buff mining!"

The similarities between these two systems are actually quite astonishing.

It is my belief that this is an example of the "negative pressure" at work in any system involving gatherers and predators. It appears to an "outsider" (or to those who don't or won't think critically) that hunting/ganking is a "big deal" but in fact the overabundance of gatherers exerts far more pressure on the system than the hunters/gankers do. This creates a system where the results are predictably counterintuitive: In order to help the gatherers be happier as a group, it is absolutely necessary to lower their overall threshold for individual survival. In game terms, this would mean that the only way to actually "BUFF MINING!" is to nerf it. Conversely, the only way to nerf mining is to buff it.

We will see in the next year if this is an accurate appraisal of the current situation. I sincerely hope that tritanium doesn't fall below 3 ISK like I think it will. Further, I hope that ice doesn't become so worthless that managing a network of a few dozen large POS is trivial. I can potentially see the day coming when the overall health of Eve suffers if CCP doesn't stop pandering to our gatherer-class. In terms of long-term health of the system, it may be much more viable to support the culling of that population routinely rather than capitulate to their ill-conceived cries about "fairness" in a video game where they deliberately choose to be the deer and complain that the wolves' teeth and claws are too sharp and penetrate their dainty skin (hulls!?!) too easily.

TL;DR: I'm pretty sure that there's only one way to keep miners happy for an extended period of time in Eve. Counter-intuitively, that is to nerf mining rather than buff it.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
#2 - 2012-09-23 21:18:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Bart Starr
(Good post)

Rather than compare the average high-sec miner to deer, which are wily, swift and worthy prey,
I think a more apt comparison would be a bleating sheep.
Jax Bederen
Dark Horse RM
#3 - 2012-09-23 21:24:20 UTC
Why not skip all the hunter BS and say plainly that mining accounts closed before got reactivated..Otherwise I doubt everyone is going to start mining just because there is a smaller chance of blowing up, or that pixels are actually going to have offspring.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#4 - 2012-09-23 21:26:31 UTC
Bart Starr wrote:
(Good post)

Rather than compare the average high-sec miner to deer, which are wily, swift and worthy prey,
I think a more apt comparison would be a bleating sheep.

Except sheep are domesticated and can be herded around.

You could get sheep through a null-sec gate.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#5 - 2012-09-23 21:39:58 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Bart Starr wrote:
(Good post)

Rather than compare the average high-sec miner to deer, which are wily, swift and worthy prey,
I think a more apt comparison would be a bleating sheep.

Except sheep are domesticated and can be herded around.

You could get sheep through a null-sec gate.

How did you get Google translate to convert baaa to english?

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."

Aurelius Valentius
Valentius Corporation
#6 - 2012-09-23 21:48:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Aurelius Valentius
chime in with the proverbial "Nuh uh!" as requested... God the presure to conform these days is overwhelming...

"Nuh uh'!

So now we are deer...hmmm... this might make sense if the deer manufactured the guns and ammo one shot them with for dinner, but that isn't the case... so your predation model is flawed sir.

how about this...

People who make things are called producers, they produce goods which then are evaluated into a market and economy then then allow the trade and use of said items ... people that come and burn down the place and ransack everything are called barbarians, vandals, etc.. they produce nothing and yet cause a great deal of damage to the existing balance of market flow and trade.

Your problem with the progression has been your own success at being such efficient pains in the ass to the producers that finally CCP decided enough was enough and make it not longer a broken lulz function and made it risk v. reward... the value of KMs has now gone up... good thing people that want the high marks should have to be good, and have major skilled kills, not warp to belt lock barge hit F1... KM... repeat.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#7 - 2012-09-23 21:52:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Jax Bederen wrote:
Why not skip all the hunter BS and say plainly that mining accounts closed before got reactivated..Otherwise I doubt everyone is going to start mining just because there is a smaller chance of blowing up, or that pixels are actually going to have offspring.

More players are mining because they are less likely to get blown up and mine just as much as they used to.

Until prices respond unfavorably, they'd be fools not to, given the platforms they've now got at their disposal.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Tiger Would
Doomheim
#8 - 2012-09-23 21:55:52 UTC
Extremely dangerous and evil way of reasoning......but a very interesting read....

Nice post......although it does belong in fiction....

Once you think you have it all, you have actually become ignorant towards everything else.

T. Would

Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#9 - 2012-09-23 21:57:28 UTC
Tiger Would wrote:
Extremely dangerous and evil way of reasoning......but a very interesting read....

Nice post......although it does belong in fiction....

Which part is fiction?

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#10 - 2012-09-23 22:02:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Aurelius Valentius wrote:
chime in with the proverbial "Nuh uh!" as requested... God the presure to conform these days is overwhelming...

"Nuh uh'!

So now we are deer...hmmm... this might make sense if the deer manufactured the guns and ammo one shot them with for dinner, but that isn't the case... so your predation model is flawed sir.

how about this...

People who make things are called producers, they produce goods which then are evaluated into a market and economy then then allow the trade and use of said items ... people that come and burn down the place and ransack everything are called barbarians, vandals, etc.. they produce nothing and yet cause a great deal of damage to the existing balance of market flow and trade.

Your problem with the progression has been your own success at being such efficient pains in the ass to the producers that finally CCP decided enough was enough and make it not longer a broken lulz function and made it risk v. reward... the value of KMs has now gone up... good thing people that want the high marks should have to be good, and have major skilled kills, not warp to belt lock barge hit F1... KM... repeat.

I'm glad you brought this up, because I have a very valid counterpoint or two.

First of all, deer are also producers. They produce fertilizer as well as mineral supplements in the form of antlers for squirrels and other small animals to gnaw on for a boost. They also facilitate the survival of other species which use them for cues, such as wild turkeys. They don't just stand around inertly, and they're not stupid. And it's not an insult to be a gatherer.

Left unchecked, it is a fact that prices will continue to plummet as more and more people take the path of least resistance. This is not a hypothesis, this is statistical fact. A prior poster posited that pixels do not propagate, but they do. When new players sign up and see easy low-risk ISk in low-training requirement mining, what do you think they might do?

As a part-time ganker I helped discourage the trend of loners trying to make it on their own. I didn't do much damage per se, but I contributed to keeping reward values high for the miners who managed to succeed.

Can you see these points or not?

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

James 315
Experimental Fun Times Corp RELOADED
CODE.
#11 - 2012-09-23 22:04:52 UTC
OP makes some good points. How long before the miners begin to complain that the nerf-enabled increase in mining leads to lower sell prices of their goods? (Hint: it's already happening.) Smile
Tiger Would
Doomheim
#12 - 2012-09-23 22:05:33 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Tiger Would wrote:
Extremely dangerous and evil way of reasoning......but a very interesting read....

Nice post......although it does belong in fiction....

Which part is fiction?



Hey I know right....ask moderators.....

Once you think you have it all, you have actually become ignorant towards everything else.

T. Would

MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2012-09-23 22:05:47 UTC
Bart Starr wrote:
(Good post)

Rather than compare the average high-sec miner to deer, which are wily, swift and worthy prey,
I think a more apt comparison would be a bleating sheep.

And while we're at it, let's not compare these hi sec gankers to predators, which makes them seem as aggressive and bold. I think a more apt comparison would be monkey thieves.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.

Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#14 - 2012-09-23 22:07:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Bart Starr wrote:
(Good post)

Rather than compare the average high-sec miner to deer, which are wily, swift and worthy prey,
I think a more apt comparison would be a bleating sheep.

And while we're at it, let's not compare these hi sec gankers to predators, which makes them seem as aggressive and bold. I think a more apt comparison would be monkey thieves.


Nah that's people who make a living ninja looting if we're being honest about it.

Predator doesn't imply any sort of honor or elegance. It just means you destroy gatherers for their carcasses.

EDIT: I really meant ninja looting. My bad.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Hypercake Mix
#15 - 2012-09-23 22:09:07 UTC
Drones stopped pooing.
Less minerals from rat droppings.
Mining is still boring.
Mineral prices aren't going to tank.

And my Skiff goes ~700m/s.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#16 - 2012-09-23 22:10:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Hypercake Mix wrote:
Drones stopped pooing.
Less minerals from rat droppings.
Mining is still boring.
Mineral prices aren't going to tank.

And my Skiff goes ~700m/s.

If you fit it for lock speed it can catch pretty much all the cloaky ships in the game by locking them and preventing cloak.

True story.

[Edit: You don't think the Russian drone RMTers moved to high-sec to mine tritanium? You think they just gave up huh?

Does anybody know any Russian RMTers who give up?]

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Jinton Mare
Electric Monk inc
#17 - 2012-09-23 22:14:40 UTC
Nice post, But try replacing 'Deer' with say 'Passenger Pigeon' and the flaws in your argument will become clear.

In the real world your argument, look at fishermen, is oft used to justify over exploitation.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#18 - 2012-09-23 22:16:16 UTC
Jinton Mare wrote:
Nice post, But try replacing 'Deer' with say 'Passenger Pigeon' and the flaws in your argument will become clear.

In the real world your argument, look at fishermen, is oft used to justify over exploitation.

Six billion people don't play Eve. The triceratops is extinct. Stuff happens.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2012-09-23 22:17:38 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:

And while we're at it, let's not compare these hi sec gankers to predators, which makes them seem as aggressive and bold. I think a more apt comparison would be monkey thieves.


Nah that's people who make a living ninja looting if we're being honest about it.

Predator doesn't imply any sort of honor or elegance. It just means you destroy gatherers for their carcasses.

EDIT: I really meant ninja looting. My bad.

They could be considered a herbivore, if you consider high sec miners a kind of plant life
Aurelius Valentius
Valentius Corporation
#20 - 2012-09-23 22:20:54 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:

I'm glad you brought this up, because I have a very valid counterpoint or two.

First of all, deer are also producers. They produce fertilizer as well as mineral supplements in the form of antlers for squirrels and other small animals to gnaw on for a boost. They also facilitate the survival of other species which use them for cues, such as wild turkeys. They don't just stand around inertly, and they're not stupid. And it's not an insult to be a gatherer.

Left unchecked, it is a fact that prices will continue to plummet as more and more people take the path of least resistance. This is not a hypothesis, this is statistical fact. A prior poster posited that pixels do not propagate, but they do. When new players sign up and see easy low-risk ISk in low-training requirement mining, what do you think they might do?

As a part-time ganker I helped discourage the trend of loners trying to make it on their own. I didn't do much damage per se, but I contributed to keeping reward values high for the miners who managed to succeed.

Can you see these points or not?


Over simplistic clap-trap... if that where the case... I guess all of eve is fertilizer... or is it just your argument perhaps?

The point is this:
1. Gankers had overly cheap ships due to excess of minerals not from ore... a thing which made no since and which was changed, and now the proliferation is the change to mining due to a healthy demand for the supply... there is isk in it again, and so people that produce and want to work for the reward are working for the reward.

2. Your system of economy "lulz-ganking" was SO broken it required a bail-out from the Goons to keep it going, when that failed created a game breaking issue of no mining, no reprocessing, no making, hyper-inflation of everything, and universe market destuction...

...something like the barbarians turning what was once the roman empire and pax roma into one large farm yard dotted with ruins... CCP basically saw the end results and decided to make it more balanced... we still mine unarmed, with drones as the only possible defence in ships that are lulz in combat every day all over EVE... and your saying it's not fair to the people with throw away ships with hoards of guns and such on them that can simply blow up a miner with not much issue... is just well absurd.

If you want to gank, make a corporation, file a war dec on mining corps and go hunting... what's the issue? then you don't even have to deal with CONCORD... completely bi-passed... or is the though that the same ganked "deer" might re-ship and actually give you some risk in game too much for you?

Sir, if you want to simply lulz-gamer... EVE isn't your game... a REAL suicide ganker would drop a few plex, ship up, build three alts, and go out and gank... what you are complaining about is a sub-sidized gank... you don't want the bill after you have been a gultten at the table... well no more free lunch... you have to pay for them KMs just like real PvPers do...
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