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A "Ganker's" View on Mining "Buffs"

Author
Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#41 - 2012-09-24 04:09:17 UTC
Tarinara wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Problem here is miners whined and CCP changed the game for them. They didn't adapt or change tactics themselves. Thanks to this short sightedness miners are going to suffer a loss of income, just when things were looking good.

Why is it The Rest of Us have to adapt and change while miners don't? Miners whined that us mission runners were 'mining' more minerals with a battleship and ammo, so ( usually crap ) loot drops were nerfed. Supposedly all these reprocessed minerals being sold cheap were driving their profits down. How about they adapt and put up buy orders in all the high population mission hubs and buy those cheap minerals? It's not hard, trust me.

CCP is their adaptation mechanism.

It works very well.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Hypercake Mix
#42 - 2012-09-24 04:14:10 UTC
Tarinara wrote:
Why is it The Rest of Us have to adapt and change while miners don't? Miners whined that us mission runners were 'mining' more minerals with a battleship and ammo, so ( usually crap ) loot drops were nerfed. Supposedly all these reprocessed minerals being sold cheap were driving their profits down. How about they adapt and put up buy orders in all the high population mission hubs and buy those cheap minerals? It's not hard, trust me.

I suppose in CCP's grand image of EVE, they didn't want such a large portion of minerals coming from not-mining.
T'Laar Bok
#43 - 2012-09-24 04:14:40 UTC
TL;DR


CCP is introducing deer into the game?

Is it a Xmas thing for this year?

Can you stampede them into ships?

Keep them in your room?

We need more details!

Amphetimines are your friend.

http://eveboard.com/pilot/T'Laar_Bok

Tarinara
Doomheim
#44 - 2012-09-24 04:34:38 UTC
Hypercake Mix wrote:
I suppose in CCP's grand image of EVE, they didn't want such a large portion of minerals coming from not-mining.

If I'm 'mining' more minerals with a BS and cruise missiles than a miner with a barge/exhumer and strip miners - they should probably repackage that mining ship , put it on the market and try a different profession. And I'll point out to them mission running usually requires more effort than moving ore every minute or so and then alt-tabbing back to YouTube.

And yes ... I have mined before. I'd rather claw my eyes out than stare at a mining laser.
Marcus Caspius
#45 - 2012-09-24 04:50:41 UTC
:P For the same token any system that is under pressure, leads to a happier & healthier population.

THEREFORE:
Gankers are under pressure, now! There are less miners dying therefore gankers must be happy.

See the flaw in your argument yet???

Grammatical error and spelling mistakes are included for your entertainment!

Vanria Vexed
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#46 - 2012-09-24 04:56:15 UTC
You can still gank mining vessels, it just requires the ganker to invest more money into a successful gank.

**Playing EVE at times feels like putting a 10000 piece puzzle together, enjoying the accomplishment of succedding in completing it, then having some random stranger walk by and flip your table over. **

Hypercake Mix
#47 - 2012-09-24 04:56:21 UTC
Tarinara wrote:
If I'm 'mining' more minerals with a BS and cruise missiles than a miner with a barge/exhumer and strip miners - they should probably repackage that mining ship , put it on the market and try a different profession. And I'll point out to them mission running usually requires more effort than moving ore every minute or so and then alt-tabbing back to YouTube.

And yes ... I have mined before. I'd rather claw my eyes out than stare at a mining laser.


Because it was so much better than mining. It gave a decent balance of minerals from reprocessing, the ISK to buy whatever is missing to manufacture, and LP to pimp the fit a bit. And it didn't require Mining, Astrogeo, and Barge 5. This was all back then though.
Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
#48 - 2012-09-24 05:56:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Peter Raptor
Tarinara wrote:
Hypercake Mix wrote:
I suppose in CCP's grand image of EVE, they didn't want such a large portion of minerals coming from not-mining.

If I'm 'mining' more minerals with a BS and cruise missiles than a miner with a barge/exhumer and strip miners - they should probably repackage that mining ship , put it on the market and try a different profession. And I'll point out to them mission running usually requires more effort than moving ore every minute or so and then alt-tabbing back to YouTube.

And yes ... I have mined before. I'd rather claw my eyes out than stare at a mining laser.


Hence the great Barge changes of which I fully approve Big smile

Who wants to stare at his mining lasers for endless hours, worrying if a little destroyer is going to blow up his 300 million isk Hulk any moment?.

No wonder subs dropped drastically.

Us miners are safer now, bigger cargoholds have made ice mining popular again as a semi afk activity, ice prices are no longer obscenely high for POS owners, everybody's happy (except the sociapath gankers, who don't want to pvp on equal terms with other players)

CCP know what they're doing to get subs back Blink

Evelopedia; 

The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion  †  

Jack Togenada
Doomheim
#49 - 2012-09-24 06:05:42 UTC
I'm a casual miner. I mine when I'm running missions on an alt or moving goods around. Mining in high sec is far too boring to do full time. I've also done some low sec mining. It was a lot of fun, but a total failure in the risk vs reward column. The latest mining buffs where a god send to my play style.

However high sec mining really doesn't make sense. The large empires own everything in high sec and yet they allow anyone to grab free floating resources without taxes or limits? That's a dumb system. Here's a good change for high sec mining:
Set a daily maxim that you are allowed to mine. Go over it and the faction police show you a good time.

This lets the lowbies and the casuals to mine enough to keep them happy and forces professorial miners into low sec or out of mining altogether. Oh and buff low sec mining while you're at it. I'd love to have a reason to mine and do industry in low sec.
Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
#50 - 2012-09-24 06:14:37 UTC
Jack Togenada wrote:
I'm a casual miner. I mine when I'm running missions on an alt or moving goods around. Mining in high sec is far too boring to do full time. I've also done some low sec mining. It was a lot of fun, but a total failure in the risk vs reward column. The latest mining buffs where a god send to my play style.

However high sec mining really doesn't make sense. The large empires own everything in high sec and yet they allow anyone to grab free floating resources without taxes or limits? That's a dumb system. Here's a good change for high sec mining:
Set a daily maxim that you are allowed to mine. Go over it and the faction police show you a good time.

This lets the lowbies and the casuals to mine enough to keep them happy and forces professorial miners into low sec or out of mining altogether. Oh and buff low sec mining while you're at it. I'd love to have a reason to mine and do industry in low sec.



Interesting idea, though if the limit is too low, prices in EVE will spin outta control.

Evelopedia; 

The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion  †  

Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#51 - 2012-09-24 06:30:09 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Let me start by stating that this is all the opinion of a part-time lulz-ganker based on observation of the past year's "progress" in the development of both Eve Online's community, as well as the game itself. Since I am not a miner, no doubt many will chime in with the proverbial "Nuh uh!" They are free to do so, of course, but I feel this reaction will be at the cost of their own enjoyment of Eve Online at a minimum, and possibly even their own enlightenment.

Let's start with my premise: Every system responds to pressure. This is true in video games, nature, even in your pressure cooker. Deer herds are a good example of systems responding to various pressures. Deer have finite natural resources with which to survive, in much the same way that Eve Online has finite resources. Some may say the resources are infinite, but that is only taken over an eternity. Eve's resources are clearly finite, even if renewable. The same can be said of the acorns and plant material upon which deer feed.

Let's look more closely at what happens to deer populations in response to certain pressures, shall we?

When a population of deer is actively hunted (be it by man or by beast), the overall health and happiness of the herd actually improves. This seems counter-intuitive! Surely some hunter out shooting deer for lulz (or food, doesn't matter) can't benefit the overall well-being of the herd...but he does. The reason is obvious: Killing one deer has negligible impact on the demand placed on resources required by the herd, but those resources are shared between fewer deer. This means the population is happier, save for the trophy-mounted (or stew-kettle-consigned) victim.

However, when a population of deer is allowed to range free from predation, they multiply faster. This has little change on the overall demand for natural resources, but the resources available for each individual are less. This means that the herd's health suffers when they are not hunted; both from malnutrition and from disease. This is because deer have no mechanism for controlling the size of their own herd. All they do is react to the environment around them and try to survive as well as possible.

Now let's look at how this counterintuitive fact might apply to Eve.

When a population of miners is actively hunted (be it by null-sec pilots, low-sec pirates, or high-sec mercenaries), the overall wealth and happiness of the mining community actually improves. This is because the demand for ships continues to be mostly unaffected by the minute loss of one pilot. But with that pilot's loss of resolve, more ore is available for less people to mine. This means miners are happier, save for the killboard-pasted victim.

However, when a population of miners is allowed to mine free from ganks, they multiply faster. This has little change on the overall demand for ships and modules, but the resources available for each miner are less. Consequently, miners make less ISK for the same effort. This is because miners as a group refuse to use the mechanism designed for controlling the size of their, erm, herd. All they do is react to the environment around them with cries of, "Nef gankers!" and, "Buff mining!"

The similarities between these two systems are actually quite astonishing.

It is my belief that this is an example of the "negative pressure" at work in any system involving gatherers and predators. It appears to an "outsider" (or to those who don't or won't think critically) that hunting/ganking is a "big deal" but in fact the overabundance of gatherers exerts far more pressure on the system than the hunters/gankers do. This creates a system where the results are predictably counterintuitive: In order to help the gatherers be happier as a group, it is absolutely necessary to lower their overall threshold for individual survival. In game terms, this would mean that the only way to actually "BUFF MINING!" is to nerf it. Conversely, the only way to nerf mining is to buff it.

We will see in the next year if this is an accurate appraisal of the current situation. I sincerely hope that tritanium doesn't fall below 3 ISK like I think it will. Further, I hope that ice doesn't become so worthless that managing a network of a few dozen large POS is trivial. I can potentially see the day coming when the overall health of Eve ssuffers if CCP doesn't stop pandering to our gatherer-class. In terms of long-term health of the system, it may be much more viable to support the culling of that population routinely rather than capitulate to their ill-conceived cries about "fairness" in a video game where they deliberately choose to be the deer and complain that the wolves' teeth and claws are too sharp and penetrate their dainty skin (hulls!?!) too easily.

TL;DR: I'm pretty sure that there's only one way to keep miners happy for an extended period of time in Eve. Counter-intuitively, that is to nerf mining rather than buff it.


If I take 20 minutes out of my day and replace the word miner/mining with ganker/ganking for the sake of lolz... I'm sure this could easily work both ways....

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2012-09-24 06:59:20 UTC
Funny to see people bikering about analogy and how legit it is.

Anyways, as OP hinted already, it's a matter of quantities. Maybe current situation slides towards "unculled herd" too much (people fielding dozens of multiboxing alts just to actually make some profits until it becomes not worth the hassle), maybe sitation before was broken as some people here argue (it could be possible that null became the main mineral exporter eventually).

Let's hope nothing will go terribly wrong 'till next mining overhaul.
pussnheels
Viziam
#53 - 2012-09-24 07:08:55 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Let me start by stating that this is all the opinion of a part-time lulz-ganker based on observation of the past year's "progress" in the development of both Eve Online's community, as well as the game itself. Since I am not a miner, no doubt many will chime in with the proverbial "Nuh uh!" They are free to do so, of course, but I feel this reaction will be at the cost of their own enjoyment of Eve Online at a minimum, and possibly even their own enlightenment.

Let's start with my premise: Every system responds to pressure. This is true in video games, nature, even in your pressure cooker. Deer herds are a good example of systems responding to various pressures. Deer have finite natural resources with which to survive, in much the same way that Eve Online has finite resources. Some may say the resources are infinite, but that is only taken over an eternity. Eve's resources are clearly finite, even if renewable. The same can be said of the acorns and plant material upon which deer feed.

Let's look more closely at what happens to deer populations in response to certain pressures, shall we?

When a population of deer is actively hunted (be it by man or by beast), the overall health and happiness of the herd actually improves. This seems counter-intuitive! Surely some hunter out shooting deer for lulz (or food, doesn't matter) can't benefit the overall well-being of the herd...but he does. The reason is obvious: Killing one deer has negligible impact on the demand placed on resources required by the herd, but those resources are shared between fewer deer. This means the population is happier, save for the trophy-mounted (or stew-kettle-consigned) victim.

However, when a population of deer is allowed to range free from predation, they multiply faster. This has little change on the overall demand for natural resources, but the resources available for each individual are less. This means that the herd's health suffers when they are not hunted; both from malnutrition and from disease. This is because deer have no mechanism for controlling the size of their own herd. All they do is react to the environment around them and try to survive as well as possible.

Now let's look at how this counterintuitive fact might apply to Eve.

When a population of miners is actively hunted (be it by null-sec pilots, low-sec pirates, or high-sec mercenaries), the overall wealth and happiness of the mining community actually improves. This is because the demand for ships continues to be mostly unaffected by the minute loss of one pilot. But with that pilot's loss of resolve, more ore is available for less people to mine. This means miners are happier, save for the killboard-pasted victim.

However, when a population of miners is allowed to mine free from ganks, they multiply faster. This has little change on the overall demand for ships and modules, but the resources available for each miner are less. Consequently, miners make less ISK for the same effort. This is because miners as a group refuse to use the mechanism designed for controlling the size of their, erm, herd. All they do is react to the environment around them with cries of, "Nef gankers!" and, "Buff mining!"

The similarities between these two systems are actually quite astonishing.

It is my belief that this is an example of the "negative pressure" at work in any system involving gatherers and predators. It appears to an "outsider" (or to those who don't or won't think critically) that hunting/ganking is a "big deal" but in fact the overabundance of gatherers exerts far more pressure on the system than the hunters/gankers do. This creates a system where the results are predictably counterintuitive: In order to help the gatherers be happier as a group, it is absolutely necessary to lower their overall threshold for individual survival. In game terms, this would mean that the only way to actually "BUFF MINING!" is to nerf it. Conversely, the only way to nerf mining is to buff it.

We will see in the next year if this is an accurate appraisal of the current situation. I sincerely hope that tritanium doesn't fall below 3 ISK like I think it will. Further, I hope that ice doesn't become so worthless that managing a network of a few dozen large POS is trivial. I can potentially see the day coming when the overall health of Eve ssuffers if CCP doesn't stop pandering to our gatherer-class. In terms of long-term health of the system, it may be much more viable to support the culling of that population routinely rather than capitulate to their ill-conceived cries about "fairness" in a video game where they deliberately choose to be the deer and complain that the wolves' teeth and claws are too sharp and penetrate their dainty skin (hulls!?!) too easily.

TL;DR: I'm pretty sure that there's only one way to keep miners happy for an extended period of time in Eve. Counter-intuitively, that is to nerf mining rather than buff it.

Is this another ' they not playing my game , i demand that CCP nerf them' threads
If so i wasted my time

PS most of you ganjkers forgot that CCP gave you the ultimate ganking machine a year ago ; so stop begging

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire

Jake Warbird
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2012-09-24 08:18:17 UTC
Peter Raptor wrote:
Jack Togenada wrote:
I'm a casual miner. I mine when I'm running missions on an alt or moving goods around. Mining in high sec is far too boring to do full time. I've also done some low sec mining. It was a lot of fun, but a total failure in the risk vs reward column. The latest mining buffs where a god send to my play style.

However high sec mining really doesn't make sense. The large empires own everything in high sec and yet they allow anyone to grab free floating resources without taxes or limits? That's a dumb system. Here's a good change for high sec mining:
Set a daily maxim that you are allowed to mine. Go over it and the faction police show you a good time.

This lets the lowbies and the casuals to mine enough to keep them happy and forces professorial miners into low sec or out of mining altogether. Oh and buff low sec mining while you're at it. I'd love to have a reason to mine and do industry in low sec.



Interesting idea, though if the limit is too low, prices in EVE will spin outta control.

Mining alts will blot out the sun.
Aurelius Valentius
Valentius Corporation
#55 - 2012-09-24 09:37:11 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:

First and foremost, this is a game and not a court of law. I'm wondering if the pressures from real-world environments will be mirrored in Eve Online, not whining about not being able to gank anymore, which I most certainly can.

So basically your entire post boils down to morality, which amounts to "I don't like the way you play and I'm glad if this ruins it for you."

Congratulations. You missed the real discussion.


I would think that presenting a logical supported view point wouldn't care if it was a game or a court of law... something is either a supported position or not... congrats you missed the entire point of logic.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#56 - 2012-09-24 12:11:36 UTC
Marcus Caspius wrote:
:P For the same token any system that is under pressure, leads to a happier & healthier population.

THEREFORE:
Gankers are under pressure, now! There are less miners dying therefore gankers must be happy.

See the flaw in your argument yet???


The flaw is in your own argument. For any population of animals, predation pressure will (to a certain level) lead to the greater population being healthier (generally because the sickly and weak fall to predation). Too little predation leads to a swollen population that over-grazes and lives a generally miserable existence. Over predation leads to a population going extinct.

On the other hand, predators need prey. If the prey is replaced with something that the predators can't kill, the predators die. Then with the predators dead, the prey population becomes grossly under-predated, and dies.

I was happily mining all the while that this whining about gankers was going on. The indefinite extension to the Goonswarm bounty formed a challenge. I made a decent amount of ISK from mining (especially ice harvesting) because so many other miners were sick: they either got blown up by gankers, or dropped out of the game due to their stubbornness about not mining except in ships fitted for maximum possible yield.

I ended up heavily tanking my fieet, and trained my fleet command character up with siege warfare and armored warfare specifically to counter the gankers. Other miners ended up going a different direction: 20 mackinaws serviced by two orcas and a small defense fleet, ensuring that any gank attempts would be met with overwhelming firepower (you'd go blinky red, and be dead before your second blaster salvo was fired, and certainly well before CONCORD arrived).

Now we have "ungankable" mining barges, and many more miners out there exploiting their newfound superpowers.

When I see mechanics being changed specifically to chase lost subscriptions, it leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#57 - 2012-09-24 12:17:07 UTC
Vanria Vexed wrote:
You can still gank mining vessels, it just requires the ganker to invest more money into a successful gank.


The problem is that you cannot make a profit anymore. They might still be gankable but if there is no money in it then nobody is going to do it. The only threat to high sec miners have more or less been removed.
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
#58 - 2012-09-24 12:27:39 UTC
I like mining. I'd go as far as saying its my main playstyle at the moment.

The thought of logging in to play sickly deer for some coward pvp wannabes is terrible. You gankers are just incapable of seeing this from the other side. You would destroy the game just so you can shoot ships that can't fight back. Pathetic.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#59 - 2012-09-24 12:36:35 UTC
Ana Vyr wrote:
I like mining. I'd go as far as saying its my main playstyle at the moment.

The thought of logging in to play sickly deer for some coward pvp wannabes is terrible. You gankers are just incapable of seeing this from the other side. You would destroy the game just so you can shoot ships that can't fight back. Pathetic.


Whats pathetic is the fact that for 8 months people such as yourself failed to do anything to protect yourselves dispite "evil gankers" such as myself posting fits and tactics that would make you unviable targets. You made yourselves targets for pirates.

Even now you people fit zero tank but thanks to CCP most are not profitable to kill. Miners whine how boring their job is then nerf the only excitement they haveRoll
Tarinara
Doomheim
#60 - 2012-09-24 14:34:01 UTC
And on the subject of fits: since when did all the mining types stop reading Halada's Guide? He gave exact working fits for every mining ship plus a couple battleships. I'm sure mining in an Apoc would lower your risk of being ganked some-what...