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A "Ganker's" View on Mining "Buffs"

Author
PI Maker
Doomheim
#61 - 2012-09-24 14:47:30 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Ana Vyr wrote:
I like mining. I'd go as far as saying its my main playstyle at the moment.

The thought of logging in to play sickly deer for some coward pvp wannabes is terrible. You gankers are just incapable of seeing this from the other side. You would destroy the game just so you can shoot ships that can't fight back. Pathetic.


Whats pathetic is the fact that for 8 months people such as yourself failed to do anything to protect yourselves dispite "evil gankers" such as myself posting fits and tactics that would make you unviable targets. You made yourselves targets for pirates.

Even now you people fit zero tank but thanks to CCP most are not profitable to kill. Miners whine how boring their job is then nerf the only excitement they haveRoll

what's pathetic is that the goons can't seem to field a couple hundred destroyer alts to swarm around killing everything that moves. after reading the ganking friehgters thread, i was amazed to learn that apparently you can't even put together 15 or so alts to run a half decent hisec gate gank op. i must say, you guys just don't provide the content you used to. I DEMAND BETTER CONTENT FROM GOONSWARM.
BoBoZoBo
MGroup9
Quantum Cafe
#62 - 2012-09-24 16:09:09 UTC  |  Edited by: BoBoZoBo
Cute - but the argument is flawed and invalid - Here is the difference:

When hunting Deer, hunters generally kill males and usually they go for big, strong, many pointed males. So the remaining (weaker) deer are happy because the naturally selected male is no longer a threat, eating all their food, banging all their hotties. No to mention, the deer in question, does not have a clone to re-spawn and try again. The population decreases permanently resulting in the change you explained. Happier MAYBE, but the result is a weaker population as a whole without the stronger genes in supply.

NOW - The EVE HiSec Mining Ganker However...

DOES NOT kill the strongest of the breed. It looks for weak, lonely miners. Solo miners which don't have much of an impact on the environment anyway, And once they kill this weak breed, nothing happens. Because this solo miner still has the ability to come back to life and do the same thing all over again. The population does not decrease permanently and even if someone stops mining or leaves the game, you only got rid of a weak gene pool. Nothing changes.

The only valid comparison in this hunting metaphor in that you are shooting something unarmed and that cannot shoot back, Which does not make you much of a hunter.

3/10 for effort.

Primary Test Subject • SmackTalker Elite

Schalac
Apocalypse Reign
#63 - 2012-09-24 18:50:56 UTC
The only thing over-population of deer cause is traffic accidents on the highway.

Blowing up miners doesn't help the mining industry out and if you think that highsec is over mined or there are too many miners then you must be at most 5 jumps away from a major hub. You could put every person logged on the game in mining ships and haulers, the one Orca pilot per system for links, and there would still be free belts to mine in highsec. This doesn't even count in all the ice feilds that never get mined out.

Miner=deer=dumb analogy.

SCHALAC HAS SPOKEN!! http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schalac

Tarinara
Doomheim
#64 - 2012-09-24 19:00:04 UTC
Jake Warbird wrote:
Mining alts will blot out the sun.

... Then they will gank in the shade ...
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
Somethin Awfull Forums
#65 - 2012-09-24 19:03:05 UTC
You aren't seeing it from your proverbial side though.

Wolves hunt Deer, the more wolves there are, the less content the wolf pack is. One could argue that less wolves mean happier wolves too. After the hybrid nerf there were simply "too many wolves".

R.I.P. Vile Rat

BoBoZoBo
MGroup9
Quantum Cafe
#66 - 2012-09-24 19:14:29 UTC
Ioci wrote:
You aren't seeing it from your proverbial side though.

Wolves hunt Deer, the more wolves there are, the less content the wolf pack is. One could argue that less wolves mean happier wolves too. After the hybrid nerf there were simply "too many wolves".


This reply is even better than mine.

Primary Test Subject • SmackTalker Elite

Rikiri Kardo
Warriors of the Dark Vale
#67 - 2012-09-24 19:21:57 UTC
OP, your post makes sense to a degree, but ask a carrier pigeon about over hunting. Oh, wait...
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#68 - 2012-09-24 19:35:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Rikiri Kardo wrote:
OP, your post makes sense to a degree, but ask a carrier pigeon about over hunting. Oh, wait...

Ask a Wall Street Tycoon about runaway dellation...oh wait.

Do you really think miners can be ganked to extinction?

You really give your fellow [edit: mining] capsuleers a lot of credit!

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Nuela
WoT Misfits
#69 - 2012-09-24 19:41:56 UTC
I agree that the OPs analogy is simplistic as it doesn not fully capture the idea of deer as producers.

However, there is something there...something to it.

I never really understood people complaining about 'predation'. Predation can actually help you even if you are a 'prey animal'. If the predators go after the easy prey and you make yourself difficult to kill you won't make as much as you used to because you have to play sub-optimally to avoid predation...but on the whole you are ahead of what you would be because your relative share of the 'harvest' goes up. This means you are better off then you were before predation!

There are ways predation helps that many may have not considered. Keeping on mining as the example, how many times have you heard miners complaining about people selling minerals 'below cost'? The "minerals are free cuz I mined them" mentality? What predation does is hinder these people even if predation is completely random. The more efficient you are the faster you make the isk per hour. If predation was random and averaged (to pull a number out of thin air) to a cost of 5 mill isk per hour then anyone less efficient than 5 mill isk per hour will soon be gone from the world (they are making negative isk so they have to 'die' sometime). The ones making close to 5 mill isk an hour will have lean times and probably give up. This means that the efficient/competent miners do not have to contend with a horde of morons dumping cheap minerals on the market.

I have to go with the OP even if it is a simplistic analogy. Predation DOES help with the 'health' of the prey.

However, you can't have too high a predator to prey ratio. If the predators are too numerous the ecology will collapse. I believe the current predator to prey ratio of mammals is around 5-7%...which means you need 12-20 miners per predator. This means you have to have it hard being a predator in order to keep balance.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#70 - 2012-09-24 19:51:56 UTC
Nuela wrote:
I agree that the OPs analogy is simplistic as it doesn not fully capture the idea of deer as producers.

However, there is something there...something to it.

I never really understood people complaining about 'predation'. Predation can actually help you even if you are a 'prey animal'. If the predators go after the easy prey and you make yourself difficult to kill you won't make as much as you used to because you have to play sub-optimally to avoid predation...but on the whole you are ahead of what you would be because your relative share of the 'harvest' goes up. This means you are better off then you were before predation!

There are ways predation helps that many may have not considered. Keeping on mining as the example, how many times have you heard miners complaining about people selling minerals 'below cost'? The "minerals are free cuz I mined them" mentality? What predation does is hinder these people even if predation is completely random. The more efficient you are the faster you make the isk per hour. If predation was random and averaged (to pull a number out of thin air) to a cost of 5 mill isk per hour then anyone less efficient than 5 mill isk per hour will soon be gone from the world (they are making negative isk so they have to 'die' sometime). The ones making close to 5 mill isk an hour will have lean times and probably give up. This means that the efficient/competent miners do not have to contend with a horde of morons dumping cheap minerals on the market.

I have to go with the OP even if it is a simplistic analogy. Predation DOES help with the 'health' of the prey.

However, you can't have too high a predator to prey ratio. If the predators are too numerous the ecology will collapse. I believe the current predator to prey ratio of mammals is around 5-7%...which means you need 12-20 miners per predator. This means you have to have it hard being a predator in order to keep balance.

Fine, let's go with honeybees and spiders then.

It really doesn't matter for the sake of discussion (except for oversimplified arguments that humans only hunt big males so therefore I'm wrong) as long as you have a situation where one group is a clear gatherer and the other is a clear predator.

The pressures likely remain in more ambiguous cases, but they become increasingly difficult to discuss.

For example, imagine if miners actually had pew pew skirmishes over mining belts! The pressures become more complex then, right? The lines become a little more blurry when it's not "ganker vs. miner" - especially if the miners did the ganking.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#71 - 2012-09-24 19:56:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Aurelius Valentius wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:

First and foremost, this is a game and not a court of law. I'm wondering if the pressures from real-world environments will be mirrored in Eve Online, not whining about not being able to gank anymore, which I most certainly can.

So basically your entire post boils down to morality, which amounts to "I don't like the way you play and I'm glad if this ruins it for you."

Congratulations. You missed the real discussion.


I would think that presenting a logical supported view point wouldn't care if it was a game or a court of law... something is either a supported position or not... congrats you missed the entire point of logic.

Let's look at that a different way, shall we?

In a game of hockey, will a player take the risk of fistfighting to potentially advance their position?

Probably, yes. Because it's a game. [Edit: And fistfighting is allowed. They don't even stop the clock. Sort of like Eve's ganking.]

In the real world, where we actually live, will you take a risk with your own safety to potentially advance your position by fistfighting in a court of law?

Possibly. But it's not as likely if you're intelligent. [Edit: probably because it's not encouraged to fistfight in a courtroom.]

Logically, you see, there's a difference between what's acceptable in a game and what's acceptable in a court of law. But according to you, peoples' behavior in court is equatable with their behavior in a video game.

That is why you fail.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#72 - 2012-09-24 20:12:52 UTC
You want to know why CCP buffed mining barges?

For the lulz my friend, for the lulz. Lol
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2012-09-24 20:16:52 UTC
Local. Static Mining Locations. Ship detection. Concord.

'nuff said

Can't be arsed repeating myself again. As for OP, the comparison is way too general to fully apply to EVE's situation though it is not entirely incorrect either.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2012-09-24 20:28:22 UTC
I didn't read the thread yet but I'm willing to wager half of the thread is npc alt miners whining and posting the same terrible arguments over and over again.

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Methesda
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#75 - 2012-09-24 20:36:01 UTC
Jinton Mare wrote:

In the real world your argument, look at fishermen, is oft used to justify over exploitation.


Wait, what? His argument is look at fisherman?

Wuuuuuuut?

Eve is about the journey.  If you are so focused on making money, that you insist on having the tools to make it be made as autonomous and easy as possible, then you are never going to have as much fun as I will.

Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2012-09-24 20:37:18 UTC
Schalac wrote:
The only thing over-population of deer cause is traffic accidents on the highway.

*snip*

Miner=deer=dumb analogy.
Deer also cause crop damage.

+++++++ I have never shed a tear for a fellow EVE player until now. Mark “Seleene” Heard's Blog Honoring Sean "Vile Rat" Smith.

Josef Djugashvilis
#77 - 2012-09-24 21:00:44 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Let me start by stating that this is all the opinion of a part-time lulz-ganker based on observation of the past year's "progress" in the development of both Eve Online's community, as well as the game itself. Since I am not a miner, no doubt many will chime in with the proverbial "Nuh uh!" They are free to do so, of course, but I feel this reaction will be at the cost of their own enjoyment of Eve Online at a minimum, and possibly even their own enlightenment.

Let's start with my premise: Every system responds to pressure. This is true in video games, nature, even in your pressure cooker. Deer herds are a good example of systems responding to various pressures. Deer have finite natural resources with which to survive, in much the same way that Eve Online has finite resources. Some may say the resources are infinite, but that is only taken over an eternity. Eve's resources are clearly finite, even if renewable. The same can be said of the acorns and plant material upon which deer feed.

Let's look more closely at what happens to deer populations in response to certain pressures, shall we?

When a population of deer is actively hunted (be it by man or by beast), the overall health and happiness of the herd actually improves. This seems counter-intuitive! Surely some hunter out shooting deer for lulz (or food, doesn't matter) can't benefit the overall well-being of the herd...but he does. The reason is obvious: Killing one deer has negligible impact on the demand placed on resources required by the herd, but those resources are shared between fewer deer. This means the population is happier, save for the trophy-mounted (or stew-kettle-consigned) victim.

However, when a population of deer is allowed to range free from predation, they multiply faster. This has little change on the overall demand for natural resources, but the resources available for each individual are less. This means that the herd's health suffers when they are not hunted; both from malnutrition and from disease. This is because deer have no mechanism for controlling the size of their own herd. All they do is react to the environment around them and try to survive as well as possible.

Now let's look at how this counterintuitive fact might apply to Eve.

When a population of miners is actively hunted (be it by null-sec pilots, low-sec pirates, or high-sec mercenaries), the overall wealth and happiness of the mining community actually improves. This is because the demand for ships continues to be mostly unaffected by the minute loss of one pilot. But with that pilot's loss of resolve, more ore is available for less people to mine. This means miners are happier, save for the killboard-pasted victim.

However, when a population of miners is allowed to mine free from ganks, they multiply faster. This has little change on the overall demand for ships and modules, but the resources available for each miner are less. Consequently, miners make less ISK for the same effort. This is because miners as a group refuse to use the mechanism designed for controlling the size of their, erm, herd. All they do is react to the environment around them with cries of, "Nef gankers!" and, "Buff mining!"

The similarities between these two systems are actually quite astonishing.

It is my belief that this is an example of the "negative pressure" at work in any system involving gatherers and predators. It appears to an "outsider" (or to those who don't or won't think critically) that hunting/ganking is a "big deal" but in fact the overabundance of gatherers exerts far more pressure on the system than the hunters/gankers do. This creates a system where the results are predictably counterintuitive: In order to help the gatherers be happier as a group, it is absolutely necessary to lower their overall threshold for individual survival. In game terms, this would mean that the only way to actually "BUFF MINING!" is to nerf it. Conversely, the only way to nerf mining is to buff it.

We will see in the next year if this is an accurate appraisal of the current situation. I sincerely hope that tritanium doesn't fall below 3 ISK like I think it will. Further, I hope that ice doesn't become so worthless that managing a network of a few dozen large POS is trivial. I can potentially see the day coming when the overall health of Eve ssuffers if CCP doesn't stop pandering to our gatherer-class. In terms of long-term health of the system, it may be much more viable to support the culling of that population routinely rather than capitulate to their ill-conceived cries about "fairness" in a video game where they deliberately choose to be the deer and complain that the wolves' teeth and claws are too sharp and penetrate their dainty skin (hulls!?!) too easily.

TL;DR: I'm pretty sure that there's only one way to keep miners happy for an extended period of time in Eve. Counter-intuitively, that is to nerf mining rather than buff it.


Deer me, if this had gone on for another few pages, it would have been worthy of 'james 315 pages of tosh' himself!

This is not a signature.

La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2012-09-24 21:12:11 UTC
You know I'd think CCP would want miners being ganked as it makes the mining bot problem less significant, it helps to keep the profession's income up, it helps the economy, and it provides amusement to people who patiently must wait a year or two for CCP to fix the part of the game they live in. I'm to lazy to look up the quote for moronic npc alts but I remember somewhere a CCP guy saying that it was currently too difficult to differentiate between an actual miner and a bot so I'll leave this screenshot here as an example of the state of this problem.

http://imgur.com/DbL17

For those that have trouble understanding, look at what is typed and look at what the search box suggests, I'm surprised it is so high in the suggestions.

Revert mining ship EHP buffs (except for the procuror and skiff).

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Herr Hammer Draken
#79 - 2012-09-24 21:45:35 UTC
To the op:

You gankers are not doing your job very well. Many systems have been striped of asteroids recently.
So I went about searching for who is doing it. I found several roaming bands of Hulks usually 3 to an orca.
They go into a system about 20 strong and clear out all of the belts in short order. Then like a locust move on to the next one.
Note we are not talking about buffed retrievers or Macks, but the hulks. And they are still max yield fit. You gankers are just a lazy bunch that are to lazy to go look for the hulks and hunt them down.

As far as your deer hunting story goes. You guys are drinking too much beer on the job then you go out to your favorite tree stand and wait for the prey. Guess what those hulks that you like to hunt have all moved on and you are still sitting in the same damned tree. Get off your ass and go get them.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"

Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#80 - 2012-09-24 21:55:51 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
To the op:

You high-seccers are not doing your job very well. Many systems have been striped of assets recently.
So I went about searching for who is doing it. I found several roaming bands of Goons usually 300 to a titan.
They go into a system about 20000 strong and clear out all of the infracstructure in short order. Then like a locust move on to the next one.
Note we are not talking about buffed T2's or even faction ships, but the cheap T1 BS's. And they are still max kill fit. You miners are just a lazy bunch that are to lazy to go look for the Goons and hunt them down.

As far as your deer hunting story goes. You guys are drinking too much beer on the job then you go out to your favorite tree stand and wait for the prey. Guess what those Goons that you like to hunt have all moved on and you are still sitting in the same damned tree. Get off your ass and go get them.


I fixed it for ya. Blink

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."