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A "Ganker's" View on Mining "Buffs"

Author
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#121 - 2012-09-26 05:32:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
PI Maker wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
PI Maker wrote:

why don't you and your buddies stop whining and bring out a destroyer fleet? can you seriously not get 5 or 6 goons in destroyers together to do some ganking of miners? can a 6k man alliance not put together 250 destroyer alts? have the goons been neutered by a simple EHP buff? is that all it took to turn you guys into whiny babies? where the **** is your emergent gameplay?


We only ganked miners because it was profitable. The EHP buff means that macks are no longer profitable to gank so we no longer gank them. This is something miners have never been able to grasp for some reason.

The EHP of the mack also means that the skiff, a ship built for greater protection from ganks, is pointless.

so basically, you're whining that the resource you were farming isn't as profitable as it once was. has it really come to this? i thought you guys were the best and brightest villains in eve. has the idea well been tapped out? with 6k of you, it shouldn't be hard for you to get together a massive noob ship blob. you could do it with trial accounts. even buying fittings for it would be a rounding error in your null sec pilots' wallets.

put your numbers to work. your high sec pve got nerfed. get over it. i'm pretty sure that's what goons tell the rest of us.


How about we turn that around.

There's over a hundred thousand high-sec miners.

Why not supply Eve's tritanium needs with rookie ships?

Oh what's that you say? They don't want to? Shocked

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#122 - 2012-09-26 05:41:47 UTC
PI Maker wrote:

so basically, you're whining that the resource you were farming isn't as profitable as it once was. has it really come to this? i thought you guys were the best and brightest villains in eve. has the idea well been tapped out? with 6k of you, it shouldn't be hard for you to get together a massive noob ship blob. you could do it with trial accounts. even buying fittings for it would be a rounding error in your null sec pilots' wallets.

put your numbers to work. your high sec pve got nerfed. get over it. i'm pretty sure that's what goons tell the rest of us.



Acctually my main complaint is that the skiff is redundent because of the macks tank. You also under estimate the logistics and cost of such operations. Even our wallets are not endless.
Knight Cabbage
Doomheim
#123 - 2012-09-26 06:26:17 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:

When a population of deer is actively hunted (be it by man or by beast), the overall health and happiness of the herd actually improves.


I think the most pressing question is here:
How do you measure happiness of deer ?

And I doubt iterating the same discussion over and over will bring much changes.

I just say:
Hair peace.
Mine peace.

Not that I got any of the first one.
Tarinara
Doomheim
#124 - 2012-09-26 06:27:47 UTC
PI Maker wrote:
so basically, you're whining that the resource you were farming isn't as profitable as it once was. has it really come to this?

... much like miners complaining about falling mineral prices? ...

Quote:
i thought you guys were the best and brightest villains in eve.

They are? Hey Baltec: did I miss the memo that you guys were the villains while I was un-subbed or something? Lol
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#125 - 2012-09-26 06:38:16 UTC
Tarinara wrote:

They are? Hey Baltec: did I miss the memo that you guys were the villains while I was un-subbed or something? Lol


Bat Country have become the bane of many in highsec with our attacks on the stupid. Goons as a whole are deemed the worst thing ever and our dear leader is the anti-christ himself.

Which is ironic because we have done more good for miners in the past 8 months than anyone else in the past 8 years.
Tarinara
Doomheim
#126 - 2012-09-26 06:51:40 UTC
*shrug* Used to be BoB and all the rest of the Old Guard alliances who were the villains. Guess it's y'alls turn in the hot seat. Lol
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#127 - 2012-09-26 07:48:23 UTC
Knight Cabbage wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:

When a population of deer is actively hunted (be it by man or by beast), the overall health and happiness of the herd actually improves.


I think the most pressing question is here:
How do you measure happiness of deer ?

And I doubt iterating the same discussion over and over will bring much changes.

I just say:
Hair peace.
Mine peace.

Not that I got any of the first one.

Hey, you make a good point.

Let's start by seeing if we can agree that deer don't get a "happiness disease."

Let's also agree that deer shouldn't eat rocks in the winter time just to feel full.

I guess those are two happiness indicators I'm pretty comfortable with.

In Eve I'd say that would be ice products and tritanium trading for essentially peanuts.

Bear in mind I'm not saying it's "exactly the same." It's a toy model nothing more.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Garonor
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#128 - 2012-09-26 09:02:20 UTC
Eve highsec miners are no deer and Eve suicide gankers are no hunters/predators. They are both players in a virtual world, which has no relation whatsoever to the natural circle of life.

Why? Well first and foremost, because the general conditions, which in nature would be the laws of physics and biology, can be altered by a higher authority. In nature nobody can change the thickness of a stag's hide or the damage of a wolf's teeth, in Eve this kind of change happens all the time. Then there's the small but important fact that in Eve we are dealing with the only animals that are (as far as we know) are able to make concious desicions. On both sides. Neither the deer nor the predators are able to do that. The ganker chooses to gank, mostly for teh lulz (as far as I know suicide ganking is not really profitable) and the miner chosses to mine, mostly for the easy profit. But both don't do this to survive, or because an instinct tells them to. They do this to have fun in a virtual enviornment.

Also the whole profit/economy/happiness argument is a little off, because there are way more factors to the Eve economy than the supply and demand of ships and ore.

So with that out of the way: I still don't get why gankers are still complaining about the mining buff, the same way I don't get why miners complain about suicide ganking. There are tons of threads in which gankers tell miners to quit whining and tank their barges, in order to adapt to the conditions that are set by the game. And rightly so. In return the gankers must also accept that they have to adapt to the new conditions, by either using bigger and better fit ships, roaming in larger gangs, looking for other targets, or just starting a new pasttime. Eve offers so many fun things to do, but sometimes when you look at the GD-forums it seems like mining and ganking miners are the only activities people care about.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#129 - 2012-09-26 13:31:12 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Garonor wrote:


So with that out of the way: I still don't get why gankers are still complaining about the mining buff, the same way I don't get why miners complain about suicide ganking. There are tons of threads in which gankers tell miners to quit whining and tank their barges, in order to adapt to the conditions that are set by the game. And rightly so. In return the gankers must also accept that they have to adapt to the new conditions, by either using bigger and better fit ships, roaming in larger gangs, looking for other targets, or just starting a new pasttime. Eve offers so many fun things to do, but sometimes when you look at the GD-forums it seems like mining and ganking miners are the only activities people care about.


The problem is that the skiff is a pointless ship because the mack is doing its job. Gankers have long adapted to changes, hence our discovery of the gank destroyers but the margin for making a profit on ganking barges was so tight that the buff to the macks tank means it is not possible to kill these ships, even with no tank, and not make a loss.

Some of the barges did need a buff to their base tank but the mack and the hulk were not those ships. Their base tanks were perfectly fine and the hulks still is. The only change that needs to happen is the macks base tanks should be the same as the hulks as that would mean it would be profitable to gank but at the same time perfectly able to defend itself if the miner tanks it. It would also give the skiff the role it is ment to have.
Tarinara
Doomheim
#130 - 2012-09-26 14:30:49 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Posted: 2012.09.25 15:11: The EHP of the mack also means that the skiff, a ship built for greater protection from ganks, is pointless.
baltec1 wrote:
Posted: 2012.09.26 05:41: Acctually my main complaint is that the skiff is redundent because of the macks tank -snip-
baltec1 wrote:
The problem is that the skiff is a pointless ship because the mack is doing its job. Gankers have long adapted to changes, hence our discovery of the gank destroyers but the margin for making a profit on ganking barges was so tight that the buff to the macks tank means it is not possible to kill these ships, even with no tank, and not make a loss.

Some of the barges did need a buff to their base tank but the mack and the hulk were not those ships. Their base tanks were perfectly fine and the hulks still is. The only change that needs to happen is the macks base tanks should be the same as the hulks as that would mean it would be profitable to gank but at the same time perfectly able to defend itself if the miner tanks it. It would also give the skiff the role it is ment to have.

I think I see what this is all about. You really liked your Skiff, didn't you. This ENTIRE Ice Interdiction, Freighter Ganking and even HULKAGEDDON is all because of Skiff!

... You... you... VILLAIN!! Big smile
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#131 - 2012-09-26 14:41:21 UTC
Tarinara wrote:

I think I see what this is all about. You really liked your Skiff, didn't you. This ENTIRE Ice Interdiction, Freighter Ganking and even HULKAGEDDON is all because of Skiff!

... You... you... VILLAIN!! Big smile


I know right?

Fighting to get the barges balanced right, blowig up countless bots and bad miners, getting great prices for the stuff miners mine, giving out fitting advice and tactics...

Its almost as if I am a force for good for miners and care about their wellbeingShocked
PI Maker
Doomheim
#132 - 2012-09-26 16:30:29 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
How about we turn that around. There's over a hundred thousand high-sec miners. Why not supply Eve's tritanium needs with rookie ships? Oh what's that you say? They don't want to? Shocked

100k? LMAO. You must have pulled that from deep within your rectum.

Why would they do that? It's Bat Boy whining about EHP and how expensive it is to gank them these days. Miners were whining about getting ganked, but did nothing. They were ridiculed and ganked for it and rightly so. Now along comes the ganker to whine about not being able to gank, but they don't seem to want to do what it takes to get it done. So they should be ridiculed and... ganked(?) and rightly so. Or something to that effect.
baltec1 wrote:
Acctually my main complaint is that the skiff is redundent because of the macks tank. You also under estimate the logistics and cost of such operations. Even our wallets are not endless.

I don't underestimate the logistics of it. Step 1: Create trial account Step2: Log in and create character Step 3: Undock. Step 4: Get into fleet Step 5: Gank en masse. See? That isn't even remotely hard. It's also free.

WTF has happened to you guys? Do you need help? Are you seriously telling me you don't have the wherewithal to put together a stack of 10 destroyers and fittings each in Jita or another hub? Is all that sov space pve income not enough to cover 50 to 75 million isk in expenses per pilot? You are sad sad men. Your entire alliance should feel bad.

I have a stack of 100 catalysts and 100 thrashers with basic gank fits taken from the hulkageddon ganker instructions. If you can get 100 pilots to form up, I'll arm you, since the Goons are so freaking uncoordinated (srsly. I. Cannot. Believe. How. Wimpy. You. Have. Become.). A simple contract exchange for a reasonable price. Then you run a barracuda fleet into an ice system, 10 ships per mack and kill as many as you can before you burn through the stack of ships.

get your balls out of your wife's purse already.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#133 - 2012-09-26 17:33:47 UTC
PI Maker wrote:

I don't underestimate the logistics of it. Step 1: Create trial account Step2: Log in and create character Step 3: Undock. Step 4: Get into fleet Step 5: Gank en masse. See? That isn't even remotely hard. It's also free.

WTF has happened to you guys? Do you need help? Are you seriously telling me you don't have the wherewithal to put together a stack of 10 destroyers and fittings each in Jita or another hub? Is all that sov space pve income not enough to cover 50 to 75 million isk in expenses per pilot? You are sad sad men. Your entire alliance should feel bad.

I have a stack of 100 catalysts and 100 thrashers with basic gank fits taken from the hulkageddon ganker instructions. If you can get 100 pilots to form up, I'll arm you, since the Goons are so freaking uncoordinated (srsly. I. Cannot. Believe. How. Wimpy. You. Have. Become.). A simple contract exchange for a reasonable price. Then you run a barracuda fleet into an ice system, 10 ships per mack and kill as many as you can before you burn through the stack of ships.

get your balls out of your wife's purse already.


Last time we used over 1000 ships which needed 8000 named blasters, 3000 points and 3000 t1 damage mods.

It cost us billions and we simply are not going to invest that kind of capital into something that gives us no profit.
Donnerjack Wolfson
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#134 - 2012-09-26 18:07:59 UTC
The fatal flaw to your argument is that the resources are not, as you say, finite. At least not to the point that matters.

Too many miners here and all the belts cleared out? Next system. Not every system, not even every high-sec system, is completely mined out, or even close. It is not finite.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#135 - 2012-09-26 18:51:59 UTC
Donnerjack Wolfson wrote:
The fatal flaw to your argument is that the resources are not, as you say, finite. At least not to the point that matters.

Too many miners here and all the belts cleared out? Next system. Not every system, not even every high-sec system, is completely mined out, or even close. It is not finite.

The deer could move to Canada, too.

Don't you see that the trade volume is finite and nearly fixed?

Miners may not be competing for the resources, I don't really know. But they damned sure are competing for the trade of their goods. And there are a FINITE number of buy orders. A finite number of producers.

Those are resources too. And miners share them.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2012-09-26 19:21:57 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
PI Maker wrote:

so basically, you're whining that the resource you were farming isn't as profitable as it once was. has it really come to this? i thought you guys were the best and brightest villains in eve. has the idea well been tapped out? with 6k of you, it shouldn't be hard for you to get together a massive noob ship blob. you could do it with trial accounts. even buying fittings for it would be a rounding error in your null sec pilots' wallets.

put your numbers to work. your high sec pve got nerfed. get over it. i'm pretty sure that's what goons tell the rest of us.


How about we turn that around.

There's over a hundred thousand high-sec miners.

Why not supply Eve's tritanium needs with rookie ships?

Oh what's that you say? They don't want to? Shocked

That turnaround doesn't really work as we know that noobships aren't anywhere near efficient for the task at hand for miners, but for gankers in numbers does nearly ensure isk profitability which is the problem you identified. A turnaround here would be something along the lines on making strip miners in highsec nerfed to the point a civ miner could outperform them.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#137 - 2012-09-26 19:35:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
PI Maker wrote:

so basically, you're whining that the resource you were farming isn't as profitable as it once was. has it really come to this? i thought you guys were the best and brightest villains in eve. has the idea well been tapped out? with 6k of you, it shouldn't be hard for you to get together a massive noob ship blob. you could do it with trial accounts. even buying fittings for it would be a rounding error in your null sec pilots' wallets.

put your numbers to work. your high sec pve got nerfed. get over it. i'm pretty sure that's what goons tell the rest of us.


How about we turn that around.

There's over a hundred thousand high-sec miners.

Why not supply Eve's tritanium needs with rookie ships?

Oh what's that you say? They don't want to? Shocked

That turnaround doesn't really work as we know that noobships aren't anywhere near efficient for the task at hand for miners, but for gankers in numbers does nearly ensure isk profitability which is the problem you identified. A turnaround here would be something along the lines on making strip miners in highsec nerfed to the point a civ miner could outperform them.

I didn't identify it as a problem to be honest. I just asked how miners would like their only adaptation mechanism to be noobships.

Your response made your point of view plainly clear, in spite of your understanding of who said what, though.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2012-09-26 20:03:21 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:

How about we turn that around.

There's over a hundred thousand high-sec miners.

Why not supply Eve's tritanium needs with rookie ships?

Oh what's that you say? They don't want to? Shocked

That turnaround doesn't really work as we know that noobships aren't anywhere near efficient for the task at hand for miners, but for gankers in numbers does nearly ensure isk profitability which is the problem you identified. A turnaround here would be something along the lines on making strip miners in highsec nerfed to the point a civ miner could outperform them.

I didn't identify it as a problem to be honest. I just asked how miners would like their only adaptation mechanism to be noobships.

Your response made your point of view plainly clear, in spite of your understanding of who said what, though.

I may be wrong in attributing the idea of ganking having decreased due to a lack of profitability as one that you share. If I am though, the miner buff was a non factor as gank profit doesn't matter and this whole thread asks a question that has no point. I don't believe that to be true and I don't think you do either.

I'm not sure what conclusion you came to from my response either, if you could elaborate it would be appreciated. But thinking into the change itself, if we are talking purely making the tools less efficient so noobships are the top miners, people will use noobships and make similar amounts to now due to the catastrophic drop in supply most likely if the fallout didn't kill the game first. Beyond that, if mechanics didn't force it no one would do it. You may as well have used the same comment pre-change about people only being able to use destroyers to mine. It amounts to the same thing.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#139 - 2012-09-26 20:08:07 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:

How about we turn that around.

There's over a hundred thousand high-sec miners.

Why not supply Eve's tritanium needs with rookie ships?

Oh what's that you say? They don't want to? Shocked

That turnaround doesn't really work as we know that noobships aren't anywhere near efficient for the task at hand for miners, but for gankers in numbers does nearly ensure isk profitability which is the problem you identified. A turnaround here would be something along the lines on making strip miners in highsec nerfed to the point a civ miner could outperform them.

I didn't identify it as a problem to be honest. I just asked how miners would like their only adaptation mechanism to be noobships.

Your response made your point of view plainly clear, in spite of your understanding of who said what, though.

I may be wrong in attributing the idea of ganking having decreased due to a lack of profitability as one that you share. If I am though, the miner buff was a non factor as gank profit doesn't matter and this whole thread asks a question that has no point. I don't believe that to be true and I don't think you do either.

I'm not sure what conclusion you came to from my response either, if you could elaborate it would be appreciated. But thinking into the change itself, if we are talking purely making the tools less efficient so noobships are the top miners, people will use noobships and make similar amounts to now due to the catastrophic drop in supply most likely if the fallout didn't kill the game first. Beyond that, if mechanics didn't force it no one would do it. You may as well have used the same comment pre-change about people only being able to use destroyers to mine. It amounts to the same thing.


We aren't in a situation where noobships are top gankers. They're just the least expensive way to gank.

For me, I'd probably still use tier 3's or even fleets of smartbomb bs. Because that's how I like to do things. A fleet of SB BS is greater than a fleet of noobships. That means the picture you paint isn't accurate. The reversal really stands on its own merit. How do you react when a poster suggests that your only viable alternative is rookie ships?

Your post was pretty revealing on that matter. You shuck the rookie ship like a bad haircut. You basically made Baitec's point. The rookie ship being the only viable option is a terrible, terrible admition of how broken this new system has become.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#140 - 2012-09-26 20:23:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Darth Gustav wrote:

Your post was pretty revealing on that matter. You shuck the rookie ship like a bad haircut. You basically made Baitec's point. The rookie ship being the only viable option is a terrible, terrible admition of how broken this new system has become.

Actually I agree with him on the point of the Mack obsoleting the Skiff. Probably why the reasoning goes the same way.

Edit: and actualy, no, I didn't discard the rookie ship idea. In my latter post I played it out. But I wanted to point out that while mechanics made one option semi voable if people weren't an issue, the other wasn't viable compared to alternatives, and later even spelled out how if it were, the situation completely changes as while miners fill a real demand, gankers effectively do not. They only create demand.