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How will crimewatch changes "break" can flipping?

First post
Author
Nerf Burger
Doomheim
#221 - 2012-08-16 02:51:17 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I suppose part of the reason I'm defending can flipping is because it is noob level PVP, and all you're really doing by removing can flipping is making the barrier to entry level PVP that much higher. Not everybody wants to join RvB or EVE-Uni. I got my first kills can flipping, and while it was a thrill at the time I knew there were much better ways to PVP. It lost its appeal rather quickly for me.


its not noob level pvp, its what awful players who suck at pvp do to noobs without any threat of retaliation. The cowards choice.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#222 - 2012-08-16 02:55:23 UTC
Then why did a lot of noobs I knew from my noob days start out with can flipping and later moved on to better PVP?

Are you getting can flipped by the same people all the time? That says even more about your intelligence.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Nerf Burger
Doomheim
#223 - 2012-08-16 03:01:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Nerf Burger
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Then why did a lot of noobs I knew from my noob days start out with can flipping and later moved on to better PVP?

Are you getting can flipped by the same people all the time? That says even more about your intelligence.


because they didn't know any better? Sure, people might try can-flipping untill they realize its for losers. Its not really any more noob-level pvp than anything else. Your friends could have just as easily started out gate camping or going into wormholes. Less stupid assumptions, please.
Nashuar Attor
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#224 - 2012-08-16 03:03:50 UTC
Why is canflipping a thing that needs to be fixed? Sure, if you're lazy and can't be bothered to take your ore to a station. I reckon leave it. To take it away will just make what every pvper says about miners true. If you want to avoid being canflipped you just have to mine smarter, not get the system changed. It's this level of freedom/danger that makes realively dull forms of play more interesting. Next people will be asking for rats to be removed from belts. Fair suck of the savloy people.

FYI I'm not a canflipper and I do a fair bit of mining. Just play the game.

You'll have to speak up, I'm wearing a towel.

Nerf Burger
Doomheim
#225 - 2012-08-16 03:05:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Nerf Burger
Nashuar Attor wrote:
Why is canflipping a thing that needs to be fixed? .


because its currently zero risk and only hurts the game because the targets are almost always newer players who don't know the mechanics of what people can do to you. The douchebags who are awful at pvp will prey on such lack of knowledge for easymode kills and petty thrills. Its pathetic. This change is long overdue.

Its was also extremely lame theives could only be attacked by their chosen target.
Nashuar Attor
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#226 - 2012-08-16 03:08:46 UTC
Fair call.

You'll have to speak up, I'm wearing a towel.

Adalynne Rohks
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#227 - 2012-08-16 04:03:20 UTC
Nerf Burger wrote:
its not noob level pvp, its what awful players who suck at pvp do to noobs without any threat of retaliation. The cowards choice.


Sure... I could be mistaken... but I could've sworn that mining was the cowards choice. Hmm... Whodathunk? Miners telling other people about coward choices...

I am amused Smile

And for the internet's record, I've got nothing against miners. The hyperbole spewing out of this one amazes me, though. Real dedication to the trolling arts.
Homo Jesus
The LGBT Last Supper
#228 - 2012-08-16 04:04:57 UTC
Nerf Burger wrote:


Its was also extremely lame theives could only be attacked by their chosen target.


Yeah, now that will change overnight...it isn't like you have the option right now to bring in logi to aid that victim of theft. I'm sure once shooting him is on the table everything will change in your favor. Oh glory days!
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#229 - 2012-08-16 05:07:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Wilkus
Nerf Burger wrote:
Nashuar Attor wrote:
Why is canflipping a thing that needs to be fixed? .


because its currently zero risk and only hurts the game because the targets are almost always newer players who don't know the mechanics of what people can do to you. The douchebags who are awful at pvp will prey on such lack of knowledge for easymode kills and petty thrills. Its pathetic. This change is long overdue.

Its was also extremely lame theives could only be attacked by their chosen target.


Who the hell canflips anymore?
At its core, if you ever wanted a kill out of it - it requires the miner to make an unforced error.
Of course, 80% of them are bots, the rest are out to lunch, and jetcan mining is completely needless with the new barges. My time is too valuable to waste flying around waiting for miners to make a mistake.

Why wait for someone to make a mistake when you can just unilaterally blow them up?

Ganking is soooo much more rewarding, not in terms of ISK, but because it makes the victim feel so powerless.
Miners get angry because they feel like there was 'nothing they could do about it'. (Untrue, of course - but the concept of 'tanking' never really penetrates their thick monkey craniums.)

So, naturally, I do everything I can to reinforce that sense of hopelessness and despair - by hunting and killing them over and over. Eventually, they quit. And less idiot carebears makes EVE a better place.

Only adjustment that I can see that needs to be made:
All player wrecks should simply turn blue, similar to how Concorded ships are now. If you kill a target through ganking or standard PVP, the victor should be able to loot it without taking gate gun fire or getting shot at by bystanders.

Result: anyone can steal from a wreck, but the victor can scoop the wreck without getting BBQ'd by other players or gate guns. (IE gate guns engaging 'suspects'.)


EDIT: and oh yes, let me clue you in: The 'death' of canflipping/ 'mission runner baiting' has nothing to do the suspect flag - and everything to do with the 'Safeties' they plan on implementing. Really, who cares if other people can engage you? Thats what you are generally looking for. As long as opposing RR is equally vulnerable (ie; not, stupidly, protected by Concord) its all good. You are rarely ever going to see random '3rd party white knights' in someone's mission space anyway.....
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#230 - 2012-08-16 05:46:01 UTC
Cara Rahl wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
No longer can people steal your can


If something is jettisoned you throw it away, abandon and discard it as something unwanted. You lose your ownership of what you threw away. The very term "jettison" should already tell you that what you are doing can cause interaction with other people. To complain about this is pretty hilarious actually.

Imo it's been a mistake and ridiculously dumb thing to begin with that CCP added ownership to jettisoned containers (and wrecks while we're at it, which also should never have happened and not have hindered salvaging to become a proper profession and not this bastard thing it is today) and should never have been done. But I won't complain, cause it let's me shoot at people which is more fun anyway.

And the "risk" is what you make of it. On both sides. No one forces you to shoot and no one hinders you to bring RR. Not to mention that not everyone is a serious threat.

This is actually the most logical thing I've seen posted here.

I can't say I'm against the idea of a universal criminal flag for theft. I can say I'm against calling taking something someone threw out theft.

CCP should change jet cans. If you launch the contents of your hold into space, and didn't first put it into a canister you purchased and own, then it should be considered discarded waste. If people want to jet can than they should be using purchased secure or unsecured canisters that they put into space for that purpose, and stealing from those canisters should be considered theft.

And while they're at it, secure containers should hackable. You know, using the hacking skill.


(personally I see this as a way to create more pvp in high sec at the expense of discouraging can flipping for those people that only do it to try and get defenseless targets they can kill without repercussion. The fact is, most people are using can flipping in the hopes that the person they're doing it to doesn't realize what's happened so that they can kill them without concord responding. People don't can flip for "good fights". The entire thing is designed to trick someone into become a legal target that can be blown up.

This change is just an attempt to stop those guys. People who just want a fight in high sec are still going to do it. It's not like you can't fit a cloak.)

Abel Merkabah
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#231 - 2012-08-16 06:10:59 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Cara Rahl wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
No longer can people steal your can


If something is jettisoned you throw it away, abandon and discard it as something unwanted. You lose your ownership of what you threw away. The very term "jettison" should already tell you that what you are doing can cause interaction with other people. To complain about this is pretty hilarious actually.

Imo it's been a mistake and ridiculously dumb thing to begin with that CCP added ownership to jettisoned containers (and wrecks while we're at it, which also should never have happened and not have hindered salvaging to become a proper profession and not this bastard thing it is today) and should never have been done. But I won't complain, cause it let's me shoot at people which is more fun anyway.

And the "risk" is what you make of it. On both sides. No one forces you to shoot and no one hinders you to bring RR. Not to mention that not everyone is a serious threat.

This is actually the most logical thing I've seen posted here.

I can't say I'm against the idea of a universal criminal flag for theft. I can say I'm against calling taking something someone threw out theft.

CCP should change jet cans. If you launch the contents of your hold into space, and didn't first put it into a canister you purchased and own, then it should be considered discarded waste. If people want to jet can than they should be using purchased secure or unsecured canisters that they put into space for that purpose, and stealing from those canisters should be considered theft.

And while they're at it, secure containers should hackable. You know, using the hacking skill.


(personally I see this as a way to create more pvp in high sec at the expense of discouraging can flipping for those people that only do it to try and get defenseless targets they can kill without repercussion. The fact is, most people are using can flipping in the hopes that the person they're doing it to doesn't realize what's happened so that they can kill them without concord responding. People don't can flip for "good fights". The entire thing is designed to trick someone into become a legal target that can be blown up.

This change is just an attempt to stop those guys. People who just want a fight in high sec are still going to do it. It's not like you can't fit a cloak.)



Every gudfight I've had in secure space has started with a can flip...so how are consensual duals going to be initiated in this new system?

Don't get me wrong, I don't care if can flipping exists or not; but if I'm setting up a gudfight, I don't wantmyself or my opponent to get concorded or attacked by gate guns; not to mention I wouldn't want either myself or my opponent flagged as free for all.

James315 for CSM 8!

Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#232 - 2012-08-16 06:48:25 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.

Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game.

Zero Risk?

Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from.

Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic.



Are you so dense to believe that?

Canflippers have it so hard

I was 14 days old and a total noob newb. It was even in a protected area, and I was so newb I didn't even know this.

Now you tell me where the risk in this kill is?



Lol I know that guy that killed you.

All you whining spineless carebears HTFU.
Melodee619
Heavy Industry Construction and Mining Inc.
#233 - 2012-08-16 07:19:38 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I'm not upset about the game being made harder for some people. I'm upset about it being made too easy for some people, and CCP catering to those who whine and complain that game mechanics don't protect them when they're unwilling to protect themselves.



It is not a case of "wont" help themselves. It is more like "can't" help themselves. More often than not, the victim has no knowledge or understanding of what is happening to them.


I think it is quite acceptable that any criminal should be fair game to anyone that want's to have a pop. I sure would. I truely think it is funny that these "PVP'ers" want to "PVP", but only when they are at an assumed advantage. When they have to potentially defend themselves from bigger and better players, oh noes thats not fair.



thats not correct, case in point, Scope chat.
Every day we explain to newbe miners that to be 100% safe all they have to do is

Use mission belts to mine in (ask mish runners if you can mine them)
Dscan while in the mish belt (an show them how)
LEAVE!! the high pop systems, there is hundreds of systems that never see a ganker.
Pay attention to local, learn who the gankers are in the region an -10 them (it isn't fullproof, but it helps)

to put it as simply as possible, take responsibility for your own game instead of demanding CCP play for you.
Suvari Khashour
Black Rabbit Security
#234 - 2012-08-16 07:20:58 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.

Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game.

Zero Risk?

Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from.

Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic.



Are you so dense to believe that?

Canflippers have it so hard

I was 14 days old and a total noob newb. It was even in a protected area, and I was so newb I didn't even know this.

Now you tell me where the risk in this kill is?



Lol I know that guy that killed you.

All you whining spineless carebears HTFU.


your just upset because you can't gank noobs with impunity anymore, maybe now you have to actually enter into PVP with risk attached, we'll see who the real PVP'ers are, and who are the wannabee's, cut the wheat from the chaff so to speak, i think the tears over this say more about the people that are complaining about it, tbh, than those that arent. Eve evolves, you have to too Pirate
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#235 - 2012-08-16 07:21:07 UTC
Adalynne Rohks wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
its not noob level pvp, its what awful players who suck at pvp do to noobs without any threat of retaliation. The cowards choice.


Sure... I could be mistaken... but I could've sworn that mining was the cowards choice. Hmm... Whodathunk? Miners telling other people about coward choices...

I am amused Smile

And for the internet's record, I've got nothing against miners. The hyperbole spewing out of this one amazes me, though. Real dedication to the trolling arts.


Why would a miner be a coward?
There's thousands and thousands who have loves SCI FI movies including those where people build their own empires or handle industrial ships.

Anyone recalls the latest Star Trek? The Romulans were piloting a massively huge mining barge...

I know being on the "peaceful, worlds builders side" might be unappealing for many players but for many it is and they don't deserve the title of coward.
Rats
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#236 - 2012-08-16 07:37:20 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Homo Jesus wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Can flipping is a minor issue compared to the effects it'll have on piracy.



Yep, who cares what a random know-nothing thinks will happen.

Crimewatch is easy mode for freighter pilots. You'll be able to fly around anywhere you want with whatever cargo in highsec because nobody's going to try ganking you. Why? Any freighter that gets ganked full of cargo will need freighters to scoop the loot. What happens when the freighter scoops the loot? With crimewatch, they'll get flagged to anyone and everyone and be kill on sight. Nobody's going to try ganking freighters because then anyone will be able to shoot your freighter.

If this isn't dumbing down the game, I don't know what is.


No its the taking responsibility for your actions, you steal you become flagged as a criminal, no dumbing down there, just emergent game play Big smile


Tal


I Fought the Law, and the Law Won... Talon Silverhawk

Adalynne Rohks
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#237 - 2012-08-16 07:56:10 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Why would a miner be a coward?
There's thousands and thousands who have loves SCI FI movies including those where people build their own empires or handle industrial ships.

Anyone recalls the latest Star Trek? The Romulans were piloting a massively huge mining barge...

I know being on the "peaceful, worlds builders side" might be unappealing for many players but for many it is and they don't deserve the title of coward.


Like I said, I've got nothing against miners. Different strokes for different folks. It's just that the troll is so strong in this nerf berger, that it's trying to call ALL high sec pirates cowards. That's even more ridiculous than calling all the miners cowards, right? So yeah. Just using a ridiculous statement to illustrate how ridiculous the original statement was. stated... before... the statement...
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#238 - 2012-08-16 09:15:30 UTC
Adalynne Rohks wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Why would a miner be a coward?
There's thousands and thousands who have loves SCI FI movies including those where people build their own empires or handle industrial ships.

Anyone recalls the latest Star Trek? The Romulans were piloting a massively huge mining barge...

I know being on the "peaceful, worlds builders side" might be unappealing for many players but for many it is and they don't deserve the title of coward.


Like I said, I've got nothing against miners. Different strokes for different folks. It's just that the troll is so strong in this nerf berger, that it's trying to call ALL high sec pirates cowards. That's even more ridiculous than calling all the miners cowards, right? So yeah. Just using a ridiculous statement to illustrate how ridiculous the original statement was. stated... before... the statement...


Burger is ... passionate and to some degree if you play a game that draws on your emotions, than its a game worth playing. I have seen and met many players like Burger and what I find to be the commonality among these types of vocal players is a general inability to adapt to in game and meta game events. That flaw is common in gamers as a whole but in Eve this often pushes people to become extremly inflexible in their gameplay.

I find myself repeating this often but Eve is not about any single thing, it is about opertunity and knowing how to find it. You play the oppertunity. If thats sucide ganking, than so be it, if its mining, than so be it. There is no aspect of Eve gaming Im not willing to get involved in if I see the opertunity to advance, earn ISK and effectively win Eve. If your not playing this game in this fashion, your doing it wrong. If its a bad time to be a miner, dont be one, find other oppertunities.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 

malcovas Henderson
THoF
#239 - 2012-08-16 11:44:04 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
malcovas Henderson wrote:



Are you so dense to believe that?

Canflippers have it so hard

I was 14 days old and a total noob newb. It was even in a protected area, and I was so newb I didn't even know this.

Now you tell me where the risk in this kill is?



Lol I know that guy that killed you.

All you whining spineless carebears HTFU.


I never understood this phrase from Gankers and Griefers. If everybody did what was told to them. Tanked their Hulks, Escorted their haulers. Got mercs to help out. Fly what they could afford. All you would be left with is newbs. You actually need people to be ignorant and unknowledgable to continue what you do. Also it could be said.... HTFU? practice what you preach

And to call carebears spineless is a little bit OTT. Considering they fly ship fits not suited at all to PVP. But nethertheless still undock with great adversity to the playstyle. It is more likely to be the Gankers and Griefers are the spineless ones. Attacking low - no risk targets.

Now don't get me wrong here. I will not say that Ganking, and griefing affects numbers in the player base. But it can reduce the numbers of people who EVE is not for. Which is a good thing IMHO. With the relative ease that this playstyle is carried out, surely change is needed. Crimewatch if implemented, will not stop you from canflipping. What it will do is those that want easy kills, and prey on the weak with little or no risk, to now have real risk to their action. Those that are True Pirates will not change. These are the Pirates that deserve respect. They already fly around in Hi as -10 sec status. This mechanic will not affect them.



o7
Melodee619
Heavy Industry Construction and Mining Inc.
#240 - 2012-08-16 13:12:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Melodee619
its really pathetic how CCP is bending over for the bots an afkers.. they are turning EVE into wow :(... Its becoming more an more wow an less EVE every patch now.
Let alone this moronic **** about making anyone that kills flagged to everyone in HS, since it isn't the idiots fault for attacking the flipper... Obliviously its the can flippers fault that the idiot attacks him.....

typical wow mentality if no self responsibility.
I had a fun one tonight, I jump in on this moron with 5 macks botting, I attack 1 an he suddenly jumps a tengu in like thats gonna stop me. with 3 DCU's on it...idiot then threatens me since it isn't his fault hes sitting there boiting with macks that are totally unfitted.

basically todays EVE players are professional victims an its never their fault.