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How will crimewatch changes "break" can flipping?

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Butzewutze
Doomheim
#101 - 2012-08-15 16:25:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Butzewutze
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Butzewutze wrote:
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.

Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game.

Zero Risk?

Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from.

Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic.



Are you so dense to believe that?

Canflippers have it so hard

I was 14 days old and a total noob newb. It was even in a protected area, and I was so newb I didn't even know this.

Now you tell me where the risk in this kill is?



I have a question for you. In this engagement, who fired the first shot?



The canflipper. I took back what I thought was my stuff. I didnt know what canflipping was. What it entailed. Yes I got the warning but there was nobody around. I was well, and truely suckered into a LM.

I was a prime target. A noob newb. What these guys prey on. While you cannot fix stupid. THIS enables the new and vulnerable to have some active protection. Not just a week long wait for a petition.



So you actually stole yourself and got killed for it(kinda). You did not take the chance to defend yourself but you decided to steal back and ignore the other red blinking guy, ignore the scanner, ignore that the container has been changed its color AND ignore the big fat warning window. Why again should we make it easier for you? Because you are stupid?

Do we have to rebuild all the roads now because some people find death while ignoring the "deadend-sign"?
Butzewutze
Doomheim
#102 - 2012-08-15 16:28:33 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Butzewutze wrote:

Hm? If you are mining with a corpmate sitting nearby in a combat ship and someone comes along and takes something out of your can then your corpmate can alpha him into oblivion. What more do you want?


... that the miner can legitimately hire me to kill stuff (before it fires). As of now it's frustrating to see the targets come close and have to wait for them to open fire or do something.


Butzewutze wrote:

The miner never sees action in this case or even "danger" but he is able to participate if he "chooses" to. Why do we need to hire other people into that? Its allready pretty one sided, dont you think?


Why, mercs exist and I don't recall them having to signup an EULA to play only when the targets have it fair.


Butzewutze wrote:

Do you want a way to shoot a guy that "might" harm your mining in predefence without the guy actually doing something? Are you serious?


Considering I proposed on the Ideas forum ways to make hi sec like 0.0 and remove concord and NPCs? Heh for what I care there shold be only few hi sec islands for newbies and the rest free for all.

I understand "Pro hi sec PvPers" being scared even just at the vague mention of "free for all, no cheesy stupid NPCs in the middle".


Ah lol, then you have my support. I dont think canflipping has to exist but i respect this playstile and i dont think it has to be changed. Removing highsec at all or shrinking it to small islands would be even better as canflipping Twisted
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#103 - 2012-08-15 16:29:22 UTC
My biggest problem with Crimewatch 2.0 is that it takes a relatively minor offense (stealing a resource, as opposed to, say, blowing someone up) and turns it into a major offense. In fact, I would argue that it removes a possible revenue stream from newer pilots since wreck looting in belts while ratting (something I did while n00b to raise skill book money) is now covered under potential capital punishment from the entirety of EVE.

This will also munge up low-sec gate gun aggro mechanics. If you opportunistically steal from a wreck anyone on the gate could shoot you without worrying about the guns, regardless of whether they owned the wreck or not. Not to mention the effect on suicide ganking haulers for profit.

In short, it's an ill-conceived, easiest-to-program fix for a problem that doesn't exist.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Jaison Savrin
Brave Empire Inc.
Brave United
#104 - 2012-08-15 16:33:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaison Savrin
Karl Hobb wrote:
Not to mention the effect on suicide ganking haulers for profit.




I see nothing wrong with that.


Edit: Err, a bit ambiguous. I see nothing wrong with it being harder to profit from ganking.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#105 - 2012-08-15 16:41:59 UTC
Jaison Savrin wrote:
I see nothing wrong with that.

Edit: Err, a bit ambiguous. I see nothing wrong with it being harder to profit from ganking.

While I don't necessarily care one way or another, you can easily make a distinction between a player wreck and an NPC wreck, and also take system sec into account to mete out an appropriate punishment. The problem with the current proposal is that it takes a one-size-fits-all approach to punishment of a crime. CCP have literally stated that they wanted the easiest solution to program, and that's a very bad thing in this case.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#106 - 2012-08-15 16:44:15 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:
The canflipper. I took back what I thought was my stuff. I didnt know what canflipping was. What it entailed. Yes I got the warning but there was nobody around. I was well, and truely suckered into a LM.

I was a prime target. A noob newb. What these guys prey on. While you cannot fix stupid. THIS enables the new and vulnerable to have some active protection. Not just a week long wait for a petition.



You realise that under the proposed rules that YOU will be open to attack by anyone since you stole from him, right? Thing is, being a newbie is fine (I generally avoided anyone under 5 months) but still if you get a warning message stating "if you click yes bad people might **** you sideways", why the F did you do it?
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#107 - 2012-08-15 16:50:23 UTC
look at everyone talking about canflipping when another effect of crimewatch is making it safer to autopilot a freighter with your life's worth

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Nerf Burger
Doomheim
#108 - 2012-08-15 16:52:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Nerf Burger
Andski wrote:
look at everyone talking about canflipping when another effect of crimewatch is making it safer to autopilot a freighter with your life's worth


because high sec ganks should involve zero risk, right? Its amazing the amount of babies who come on the forums to cry when the game gets a little more challenging.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#109 - 2012-08-15 16:55:02 UTC
Ok so can someone explain to me how with the new mechanics you can gank and loot a freighter after Crimewatch 2.0 with out losing your freighter?
Butzewutze
Doomheim
#110 - 2012-08-15 16:56:56 UTC
MIrple wrote:
Ok so can someone explain to me how with the new mechanics you can gank and loot a freighter after Crimewatch 2.0 with out losing your freighter?


You probably cant... or just very hard.
Nerf Burger
Doomheim
#111 - 2012-08-15 17:00:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Nerf Burger
MIrple wrote:
Ok so can someone explain to me how with the new mechanics you can gank and loot a freighter after Crimewatch 2.0 with out losing your freighter?


OMG, you mean you actually have to risk your freighter if you want to use a freighter to loot the full cargohold of a freighter that you suicide ganked in high sec? *Gasp* What a concept! Better throw up your hands and bawl all over the forums now. Lol
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#112 - 2012-08-15 17:02:33 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
It's only an easy kill if the victim (and his entire bloody corp) allow it to be.


Doesn't help when flipping pirate has Falcon and at least two Scimis aligned and ready to warp in. Let's not forget that OGB Tengu.
Butzewutze
Doomheim
#113 - 2012-08-15 17:03:31 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
It's only an easy kill if the victim (and his entire bloody corp) allow it to be.


Doesn't help when flipping pirate has Falcon and at least two Scimis aligned and ready to warp in. Let's not forget that OGB Tengu.


Show me a killmail where a canflip lead to this engagement.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#114 - 2012-08-15 17:05:16 UTC
Nerf Burger wrote:
Andski wrote:
look at everyone talking about canflipping when another effect of crimewatch is making it safer to autopilot a freighter with your life's worth


because high sec ganks should involve zero risk, right? Its amazing the amount of babies who come on the forums to cry when the game gets a little more challenging.


tell me, what's the risk in shooting "suspects" when they can't engage your RR

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#115 - 2012-08-15 17:05:37 UTC
Butzewutze wrote:
Show me a killmail where a canflip lead to this engagement.


Boosting Tengu and logis don't show on killmails.
Butzewutze
Doomheim
#116 - 2012-08-15 17:10:22 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Butzewutze wrote:
Show me a killmail where a canflip lead to this engagement.


Boosting Tengu and logis don't show on killmails.


But falcons usually do. Whatever...

The point is... i dont think the usual canflipper has offgridboosting, falcons and multiple logis available.
Nerf Burger
Doomheim
#117 - 2012-08-15 17:11:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Nerf Burger
Andski wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
Andski wrote:
look at everyone talking about canflipping when another effect of crimewatch is making it safer to autopilot a freighter with your life's worth


because high sec ganks should involve zero risk, right? Its amazing the amount of babies who come on the forums to cry when the game gets a little more challenging.


tell me, what's the risk in shooting "suspects" when they can't engage your RR


I don't know whether that is true or not. I thought i heard talk of reps getting flagged when greyscale was talking about crimewatch. I think you should be able to engange a RR and CCP will probably fix that if it is how you say.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#118 - 2012-08-15 17:12:18 UTC
Butzewutze wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Butzewutze wrote:
Show me a killmail where a canflip lead to this engagement.


Boosting Tengu and logis don't show on killmails.


But falcons usually do. Whatever...

The point is... i dont think the usual canflipper has offgridboosting, falcons and multiple logis available.


Those who don't have do it wrong then. This game is about unfair pvp in hisec.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#119 - 2012-08-15 17:13:18 UTC
As someone with some...er...experience in this topic, allow me to retort....

Crimewatch vs can or mission wreck flipping is IMHO a blunt instrument response on the failure of CCP and new players to simply educate themselves on game mechanics; an education I offer as a part of my activities :)

Consider the following choices a carebear must make before a can/mission flipper can attack them...

1) Can or mission flipping is not allowed in newb systems, stay in those
- No? Go to step 2

2) If(Mining?) Mine into secure cans not JETTISON cans
- No? Go to step 3

If(Missioning?) Release your wrecks (to blue status) as soon as a pirate enters your pocket
- No? Go to step 3

3) Dont f#$ing shoot if someone loots from your can or wreck. Just ignore them. Period. If you dont shoot, they can't or be CONCORDED.
- No? Really? Ok, go to step 4

4) Reap the result YOU chose based on your previous 3 decisions above

I hope the above illustrates how clearly care bears need to HTFU and educate themselves, instead of CCP implementing 'CRIMEWATCH' and effectively killing a whole (enjoyable IMHO) avenue to ad-hoc pvp in hisec....


Would you like to know more?
Butzewutze
Doomheim
#120 - 2012-08-15 17:15:35 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD TYPE40
Nerf Burger wrote:
Andski wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
Andski wrote:
look at everyone talking about canflipping when another effect of crimewatch is making it safer to autopilot a freighter with your life's worth


because high sec ganks should involve zero risk, right? Its amazing the amount of babies who come on the forums to cry when the game gets a little more challenging.


tell me, what's the risk in shooting "suspects" when they can't engage your RR


That's called justice. Learn the difference between crime and justice. *snip* on planet earth people don't get punished for exacting justice, only crimes.


Buddy, this is a game. We are not in reallife. Justice isn't a crime... self administered justice on the other hand is.

But wait... lets change EVE to make it like in reallife: Someone takes your stuff and you can tell the police what happend... in 1 of 100 times you will get the thief with help of the police, he gets a fine but you won't get your stuff back. Or the thief decides to shot you right in the face, takes your stuff and your game will be over. I would support that.


EDIT: Pardon the intrusion, just had to edit that quote a little - ISD Type40.