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New dev blog: Capital ship balancing

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Author
Usurpine
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#561 - 2011-10-10 22:30:25 UTC
CCP you do it the wrong way.

If you have 3 kids, one has 4 chocolades, one has 6 and one has 7 chocolades and you need to rebalance this situation its a good way to give everyone 10 chocolades (upgrade to 10). Everybody will have same amount of chocolates and everyone will be very happy.

Instead you give the first one 1 extra chocolades, take 1 from the second and 2 of the third kid, which results in a balance but propably making one kid a little more happy but the others think you badly suck and call you that this is action is a fail.

I dont know exactly if this now balance it out, but what i see is, you nerfed fighters, which is a nerf to all carrier pilots and you didnt buff dreadnoughts enough, but they badly need a buff and you heavily nerfed supercapitals, more then necessary to make them sort of pos decoration. You nerfed the end game reward of people who played eve for more then 4 years and invested hell of time and isk into something they really liked.
you already nerfed titans weapons in the past and now they again are nerfed.
You are listening to the wrong people ccp, i would call this populism and not a good way to rebalance ships.

I cant tell you how to make it right in detail but this way imho and obviosly is a fail. CCP, please, you can do that better. Just listen to what people tell you and make the right and psychological good decision.
This is wrong.
Lili Lu
#562 - 2011-10-10 22:33:28 UTC
Disclaimer to start <- Cap pilot, not a Supercap pilot. Still gonna comment because I killed supercaps and was killed by supercaps. That is qualification to comment.

Seems like a set of decent nerfs to me. Supercaps online had to end.

As to fighter nerf being stealth carrier nerf, so what. You can still field them or other drones to fend off subcaps, it's just that you will have to decide what drones are appropriate. Fighters against supercaps and other caps; Heavy drones or sentries against a BS blob; Medium drones against . . . Carrier blobbage not an available (if less effective) step down tactic, might have been a worry by CCP as to why they nerfed fighters for carriers as well.

Regardless, I think the real consternation being voiced here is that carrier fighters will no longer be anom clearing machines. Seems ok to me. Always struck me as stupid to bring capitals into anoms. Plenty of BSs or other subcap whether solo or with second account repping that can clear anoms.

Titan tracking or remote tracking receiving at least does need a nerf as well. Good to see that Tallest is "considering" it again for the upcoming rebalance patch.

Shield hp whinage? As a Nidhoggur pilot who could theoretically be in a Hel I'll say I don't care. This mechanic affects all shield ships of all sizes. On the flip side you see plenty of shield fleets. Shields do get passive regen. Shield transfers operate at beginning of cycle. Two things armor lacks.

This issue has been haggled over at many levels of ships. The answer has always been that the tanks are different. Active shield implants exist but no active armor rep implants, differing hp boost, differing cap efficency, shield boost amps but no armor, shield regen but armor does not regen etc etc. Nothing new here. Having a differntial nerf would necessitate a wholesale change to the tanking mechanisms for all ships. I don't blame CCP for not addressing the issues here. If, and I say if, it were to be viewed a problem, it would be one hell of a game alteration to take on and not miss some unintended consequences.

All in all it seems like a good set of nerfs. Naked supercap blobbage will disappear. Subcaps and regular caps will have varying importance again. WIth the supercap proliferation it had to happen. I'm sure lots of people will come up with the next preferred fleet tactics and I doubt supercaps will be relgated to not or hardly ever being used (unlike some other ship classes such as eaf and af). Oh, because your ship cost so much in comparison it should remain op. Sorry nope.

The consolation for those unhappy is that this process of balancing will never end. Some day you may get a re-buff. Relax, you had a pretty long ride as op. Adapt to the change.
Abinadi9
NerdHerd
#563 - 2011-10-10 22:34:18 UTC
CCP,

What will happen with the BPOs? Will capital drone bays be needed for the dreads and titans after the patch?
Daedalus II
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#564 - 2011-10-10 22:40:44 UTC
Usurpine wrote:
CCP you do it the wrong way.

If you have 3 kids, one has 4 chocolades, one has 6 and one has 7 chocolades and you need to rebalance this situation its a good way to give everyone 10 chocolades (upgrade to 10). Everybody will have same amount of chocolates and everyone will be very happy.

And next time you give them an additional 5 chocolates ending up in 15, and then 20 and then 30 and then all of a sudden you have 3 very fat kids with diabetes that can't even get out of their beds. How is that good?
Akara Ito
Phalanx Solutions
#565 - 2011-10-10 22:40:54 UTC
Giimlee wrote:

while the titian class ships can hit a battleship class changing the super weapons to not hit anything but a capital class ship makes sense. removing its drone bay will also leave them utterly defenseless to a sub-cap fleet.
this is all further compounded by the fact that once warp/jump scrambled by a heavy interdicter an entire capital fleet could be killed by a fleet of t3s with out being able to fight back ......


If you would explain how a T3/Subcap gang can kil lets say 20 Supers with an average ehp of 30m (600m ehp) before the supers can get reeinforcements from their supportfleet ?
If you deploy your supers so far away from your support that they have none effectively you deserve to lose them. Its like saying that a frigate gang could destroy a BS fleet because they can shot the drones and BS cant do anything against them then...
DeadEye One
Up2-NoGood
Intrepid Crossing
#566 - 2011-10-10 22:40:55 UTC
I guess this is going to be like everything else CCP does with the game. They are going to start chasing people off the game. Why would anyone both training these ships anymore. They won't even make a decent paperweight.
kralz
Zero Fun Allowed
#567 - 2011-10-10 22:43:24 UTC  |  Edited by: kralz
CCP for real, when this goes live, can i have a pop up window asking me if i want to be refuned both isk for the carrier and capital mod skill books and every single SP i invest in them? all of my training is cap oriented with every account and every toon, this patch totally ruins my game...

carrier pve ruined...and no one is gonna buy carriers, so my bpos are worthless, SC are utterly worthless, wasted toon, just lemme go back about 2 years of sp and relocate skills and i may keep playing, i trained my skills on known ship pros and cons....note i fly a nyx....its really not fair that i should have 5 accounts totally screwed over because some whiny noobs cant compete.

its cool tho, goons have won the game indeed.

does CCP actually play the game? in any way? or is there some really strong drug in jove space us mere us cannot dare to try? i mean are u guys really really this stupid?
Trillian Nero
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#568 - 2011-10-10 22:44:21 UTC
CCP hates CCCP

Long live the fighters...

oh... send me isk... beatchs.

MezriDax
BlackWatch Industrial Group
Reckless Contingency.
#569 - 2011-10-10 22:47:56 UTC
As with everything CCP likes to kill, Supercaps are now even more useless than they were before. Good job, another shot in the foot CCP. Keep killing the game, you'll be joining the millions on the unemployment lines real soon.

They are called "super" caps for a reason. It's a different class and type of ship, it's not supposed to be competing with sub caps. They are different purpose and the power should be there for the efforts put into it. Glad the U.S. Navy doesn't think like you or our carriers would have the effectiveness of a French gunboat.

Thank you for getting everyone in our alliance talking about moving to another game (again). Always fun to loose my friends as they quit the game. Soon I won't have any reason to give you my $11 per month and my wife will be SO happy that she can spend the money. She thanks you from the bottom of her wallet.
Usurpine
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#570 - 2011-10-10 22:48:15 UTC
kralz wrote:

its cool tho, goons have won the game indeed.

does CCP actually play the game? in any way? or is there some really strong drug in jove space us mere us meer mortals cannot dare to try? i mean are u guys really really this stupid?


^this.
J'J'J'Jita
Ch'Ch'Ch'Chia Corp
#571 - 2011-10-10 22:49:49 UTC
Bring back lowsec doomsday: they can't hit subcaps anymore. How dumb is it that you have a weapon which can't fire depending on system security status?

The titan nerfs are amazingly huge.
Canine Fiend
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#572 - 2011-10-10 22:51:00 UTC
I'm not quite sure why in an effort to balance 0.0 blob warfare you decided to nerf regular carriers. Carriers that are used by players who have no interest in large 0.0 PVP at all. It ruins people who use carriers/fighters for missions, it ruins people who use carriers/fighters for lowsec/small engagement PVP and it's an unnecessary nerf. If fighter-bombers are just for supercaps, then why make fighters unable to hit battleships? You've esentially made carriers obsolete for 0.0 warfare and ruined them for everything else.

Make the nerf to the Supercarriers as others have suggested and not to the fighters. This is an absurd change that needs to be looked at. You're not just messing with 0.0 warfare here.
RDevz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#573 - 2011-10-10 22:51:07 UTC
kralz wrote:
CCP for real, when this goes live, can i have a pop up window asking me if i want to be refuned both isk for the carrier and capital mod skill books and every single SP i invest in them? all of my training is cap oriented with every account and every toon, this patch totally ruins my game...


Sure, if and only if I can get back my skillpoints for training into a Raven (following the torpedo PVP nerf of the Cold War expansion), Dominix (following the Comedy Dominix Nerf of '06), T2 railguns (following their nerf), a Raven again (following the change to torps which made them less useful for ratting), and so on and so forth.

In other words, no. Shut up.

~

Xorth Adimus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#574 - 2011-10-10 22:53:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Xorth Adimus
1. Titans XL weapons can pulverise battleship fleets easily.. doomsday or not, fit right for instance they can one shot a moving battleship or a stationary BC whilst getting reps and remote effects.

Meanwhile supercapitals move and hence are difficult to hit properly by dreads in siege today.

2.
Quote:
Remove drone bay from all dreadnoughts increase rate of fire for weapons that can only hit a pos in seige.


... so you are effectively nerfing all dread's minor protection (when the issue was with supercaps) Tracking in siege needs to be improved. Phoenix is good as it is. They also need a HP boost whilst in siege.

3. Fighters are now made utterly pointless. Fighters should have a larger signature and be vulnerable to subcap damage but they should be able to hit battleships.

4. Siege and triage should be the thing to balance all caps, if you want to use the special functions you need to siege them but if you do it makes you vulnerable to capacitor warfare and of potentially running out of Stront. Siege and Triage also help prevent people using remote effects to boost tracking locking and repping and reduces lock speed and tracking and stops them for 5 minutes.

- Titans should have to enter siege mode to gain damage bonuses on weapons and doomsday. Doomsday should be signature radius based.

- Super carriers should have to enter triage mode to be able to launch or use bombers or use the ECM burst ability. They need a reduced drone bay of 250m3 and a maximum bandwidth of 125m3.

- Only fighters/ bombers should go in the fighter/bombers bay and they should only be able to carry two wings of fighters and one wing of bombers.

This then also requires player skill as you need to cycle siege on and off and organise/cycle reps in a fleet.

5. super cap resistance to EW
100% resistance is somewhat overpowered and I would like to see them be at least slightly vulnerable to some forms of EW except when in siege/ triage.
Kari Kari
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#575 - 2011-10-10 22:54:31 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
ToXicPaIN wrote:


with what weapon can a Titan and a Dread now fight vs. Sub-Caps ??



The awesome weapon of a buddy in a ship that can hit those targets.

Or, you know, you can fit a large or medium gun on your dreadnought, as those were designed to attack those targets. /me hides from the rain of rotten tomatoes.



this is complete and utter ****. hello thats why they are called super capitals... not everyone oculd afford one... and not enough had the balls to use them... now ccp bows down to what goons want... nerfing ships by people who used them properly and had the balls too. pure and total crap. and gm's and people who work at ccp trying to make jokes out of it is ****... are you going to allow people to get here skill points back since you s*** on supers that people spent momths and months training for??? no trust in ccp anymore... way to go CCP! Failed again in many pilots... and definately no professionalism!
LORD DRAGUIL
AWE Corporation
Intrepid Crossing
#576 - 2011-10-10 22:57:07 UTC
Huge nerf for supercaps , I consulted the ole crystal ball and it says in the near future it see's some subscriptions being canceled ie..supercap pilots . who would now want a supercap 20-60 bil ship that cant defend itself except against other supercaps . guess ccp hasnt seen the welp fleet kill 2 super carrier in 2 minutes or so . i suggest you make the supercarriers dockable so they can atleast do somthing constructive with those toons..

o/
Usurpine
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#577 - 2011-10-10 22:57:54 UTC
JP1981 wrote:
Massive stealth carrier nerf is LAME. CCP should try making dreads truly better instead of relatively better vs now crippled carriers. Moros still sucks (even worse than before?) and Machariel prices are about to go through the roof as null-sec citizenry discover they can no longer effectively carrier-rat, nor for that matter hit anything at all of importance with their carriers.

Does CCP have ANYONE in their employment capable of fully thinking through the consequences of the changes they come up with? Feels like they are run by 12-year olds.

^this.
xxxak
Perkone
Caldari State
#578 - 2011-10-10 22:58:00 UTC
One of the problems that has not been discussed at all is that supercaps represent the end-game of EVE (currently).

Nerf them, and you nerf the entire game.

I would be less worried about the changes if we had a clear vision from CCP about the new EVE endgame.

[u]The nerfs to supercaps will cause more super pilots to join the largest alliances who can properly "support" their deployment, further concentrating firepower/wealth in EVE. The end result will be fewer "fun" fights, and will hurt EVE in the long run.[/u]

Tefeyel
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#579 - 2011-10-10 22:58:37 UTC
Kari Kari wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
ToXicPaIN wrote:


with what weapon can a Titan and a Dread now fight vs. Sub-Caps ??



The awesome weapon of a buddy in a ship that can hit those targets.

Or, you know, you can fit a large or medium gun on your dreadnought, as those were designed to attack those targets. /me hides from the rain of rotten tomatoes.



this is complete and utter ****. hello thats why they are called super capitals... not everyone oculd afford one... and not enough had the balls to use them... now ccp bows down to what goons want... nerfing ships by people who used them properly and had the balls too. pure and total crap. and gm's and people who work at ccp trying to make jokes out of it is ****... are you going to allow people to get here skill points back since you s*** on supers that people spent momths and months training for??? no trust in ccp anymore... way to go CCP! Failed again in many pilots... and definately no professionalism!


You want balance ships around their name? They are still "super" anyway.

And it took balls to use supercap blobs? LOL.

Maybe if your alliance was not built around their superblob, you wouldn't be crying so hard.
Just Another Toon
Doomheim
#580 - 2011-10-10 22:59:26 UTC
to help the carrier tear - add bonus to fighers +5% per level damage +5 to sig for carriers only