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New dev blog: Capital ship balancing

First post First post First post
Author
MuppetsSlayed
Angelus.Mortis
Goonswarm Federation
#521 - 2011-10-10 21:44:18 UTC
What would happen if I sat in a corp pos with an ECM burst runing?
I take it everyone else there would just sit there till downtime even if they had logged off.


Hitpoints on Hel shouldnt be nerfed, even with a 20% reduction to the other 3 Hels would still always be the primary.


The drone bay nerf wont have the intended effect on supers since you can put 15 fighters into your corp hanger and swap out using another carrier or super in fleet.


Shield bonuses are rediculous compared to armour - its most apparent on supers.
Has any of the dev's ever joined a fleet with Levi bonuses applied to in a Wyvern?
Unless you have 12 hours to charge yourself up it takes the rep of an entire fleet of chimeras to get the bonus armour ships get instantly.


Should half a single squad of bombers really be able to completely eliminate all of the DPS from a blob of supercaps?
The way i see the first fight going down after this is introduced is, supers cyno in, launch fighter bombers, a squad of bombers launch one bomb each. Then the entire blob of supercapitals go home as they dont have other drones.
Fras Siabi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#522 - 2011-10-10 21:45:10 UTC
Daiys Erkkinen wrote:
Anybody wtb a wyvern ? ccp, can i have my skilltime back ?

......not even destroyed by some powergoons in defence of our space
..... just made useless by it's own creators.... Cry

spend so much time to get my dreamship for "producing" salvage on mass in sanctums Sad



If thats what you're using a wyvern for, you're doing it wrong.

Not all who wander are lost, but most of them are complete idiots.

Baron Holbach
The Northerners
Northern Coalition.
#523 - 2011-10-10 21:47:30 UTC
fighters nerf seems .. strange as this is mostly carriers nerf what is balanced as they are atm

Rico Minali wrote:
The end of logoffski: Awesome stuff. Can we have killmails for self destructed ships too please? Fine to have the modules all destroyed but at the end of the day the people shooting the ship actually killed it by forcing the pilot to choose self destruct, so it should be reflected in those pilots statistics.


and this!!!
DurrDurrDurr
Upvote
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#524 - 2011-10-10 21:48:46 UTC
Baron Holbach wrote:
fighters nerf seems .. strange as this is mostly carriers nerf what is balanced as they are atm

Rico Minali wrote:
The end of logoffski: Awesome stuff. Can we have killmails for self destructed ships too please? Fine to have the modules all destroyed but at the end of the day the people shooting the ship actually killed it by forcing the pilot to choose self destruct, so it should be reflected in those pilots statistics.


and this!!!


They're nerfing carrier ratting.
Haseo Smith
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#525 - 2011-10-10 21:48:58 UTC
Daiys Erkkinen wrote:
Anybody wtb a wyvern ? ccp, can i have my skilltime back ?

......not even destroyed by some powergoons in defence of our space
..... just made useless by it's own creators.... Cry

spend so much time to get my dreamship for "producing" salvage on mass in sanctums Sad

This is nonsense, i dont by the car i ever wanted for my hard owned money and after a few
months the company cuts it in half for "balancing issues" ....... and for sure I'm paying money for eve.



Sure, I'll give you a billion isk. a pretty good deal for a useless ship no?
nahtoh
Vega Farscape
#526 - 2011-10-10 21:49:58 UTC
well at lest let the SCs dock for they can refined.

At lest tharts the most probable thing thats going to happen to my moros, which has probably just taken one up the ass.
Khlat Mohel
Concordiat
Solyaris Chtonium
#527 - 2011-10-10 21:50:16 UTC
I dont read the forums much and I post even less, but after I read this article I'm going to put my 2 cents out there. The Nagalfar needs its weapons brought in line with the rest of the Dreadnaught class. I would gladly give up the skill points I have trained in capital launchers to be able to fly a Nagalfar with 3 Projectile slots. In many cases the current configuration keeps many pilots from flying it and many alliances banning it from fleets

cheers
Aryndel Vyst
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#528 - 2011-10-10 21:50:21 UTC
Anyone that doesn't want their SC anymore feel free to contract it to me for 0 isk. I'll put it to use you big babbies.
Daiys Erkkinen
Doomheim
#529 - 2011-10-10 21:50:23 UTC
Fras Siabi wrote:
Daiys Erkkinen wrote:
Anybody wtb a wyvern ? ccp, can i have my skilltime back ?

......not even destroyed by some powergoons in defence of our space
..... just made useless by it's own creators.... Cry

spend so much time to get my dreamship for "producing" salvage on mass in sanctums Sad



If thats what you're using a wyvern for, you're doing it wrong.



Can use it "wrong" for whatever i like ^^
PricklyPoo
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#530 - 2011-10-10 21:51:00 UTC
Looks pretty good to me.

I can't help but laugh at all of the supercap pilots complaining about how their ship is now useless, because they can't survive a fleet of 100+ hurricanes or a few dreadnaughts anymore. Sucks having some game balance, huh guys? I guess next time you think about hotdropping your supercarrier fleet on ****, you might actually have to think about the risk, tough luck....

It's only fair that subcaps are now useful and you can't go into fights insta-raping everything with only titans and nyxs, while never having any chance of dying.

DurrDurrDurr
Upvote
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#531 - 2011-10-10 21:51:20 UTC
MuppetsSlayed wrote:
What would happen if I sat in a corp pos with an ECM burst runing?
I take it everyone else there would just sit there till downtime even if they had logged off.


Hitpoints on Hel shouldnt be nerfed, even with a 20% reduction to the other 3 Hels would still always be the primary.


The drone bay nerf wont have the intended effect on supers since you can put 15 fighters into your corp hanger and swap out using another carrier or super in fleet.


Shield bonuses are rediculous compared to armour - its most apparent on supers.
Has any of the dev's ever joined a fleet with Levi bonuses applied to in a Wyvern?
Unless you have 12 hours to charge yourself up it takes the rep of an entire fleet of chimeras to get the bonus armour ships get instantly.


Should half a single squad of bombers really be able to completely eliminate all of the DPS from a blob of supercaps?
The way i see the first fight going down after this is introduced is, supers cyno in, launch fighter bombers, a squad of bombers launch one bomb each. Then the entire blob of supercapitals go home as they dont have other drones.


Isn't that what happens in subcapital fights, except with their ships instead?

bombing runs are very hard.
Emmerik
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#532 - 2011-10-10 21:51:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Emmerik
Wyvern and Hell should indeed have some kind of buff.
As in a shield implant set or something... or what people say something to get the shield up to strenght faster with bonusses.
Lykouleon
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#533 - 2011-10-10 21:53:32 UTC
Just to clarify, is the Orca being considered a capital ship by the changes to the DD?

Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword

Vereesa
Gallivanting Travel Company
#534 - 2011-10-10 21:56:19 UTC
As a capital pilot with a dreadnought and a max trained battle carrier rusting in lowsec I was glad when I saw that CCP was rebalancing supers. the logoffski mechanic changing is great, really. that was half of what makes the supers broken, mixed with their high EHP. Nerfing both is excessive. All you need is a ibis popping a civilian rail into the side of a logged cap and its not going to dissapear so you have all the time in the world to kill them.
Pretty sure a decent bs/cap gang could take them apart pretty quickly as long as they have someone agressing each ship (hell one ship could warp from logged ship to logged ship resetting the timers with a HIC watching local to see if anyone's logged on and tackle them if they do).

Another dreadnought nerf :-( I remember the days of the super moros where it felt like all that isk you just sank into the ship was worth it since given enough time to lock it could destroy almost anything that sailed the dark skies. Now only being able to kill poses and sieged dreads it just feels like a huge let down, which is why its rusting in lowsec.

Carriers being unable to attack anything smaller than other caps- well thats its one non logistic job gone. Why bother training fighters to 5? you can't even help kill poses with them. I remember using my carrier to clear anomalies, that was fun if not nerve shredding watching local and intel for signs of a hot drop. Just wasted about a hundred days of training getting fighters and carrier to 5 for the battle Thanatos. Haven't deployed it once and probably won't be able to get into another alliance fast enough to use it before the nerf. Sigh.
BoltsBitch
Aggrobears
Clouds Of War
#535 - 2011-10-10 21:57:30 UTC
My carriers fighters allready occasionally totally miss battleships and now you are saying they will only have ONE THIRD of thier current tracking?
What the hell? SadEvil
Lili Lu
#536 - 2011-10-10 21:57:42 UTC
Lykouleon wrote:
Just to clarify, is the Orca being considered a capital ship by the changes to the DD?


Looks to me like they are referring to Rorqual and not Orca
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#537 - 2011-10-10 21:58:37 UTC
Crosspost from features / ideas (welp)

Sup CCP duders.

I really like some of your proposed changes, and really dislike others.

1. Logoff mechanics: hell yes. Fantastic. Luv2shred logged off spaceship. :twisted::twisted: etc

2. DD Changes: a good start (though personally I think auto-1-shot megadeath weapons of any kind are just dumb and DDs should probably just go entirely)

3. Dread changes: siege cycle time, excellent. Total removal of all drones? Not really necessary IMHO. They didn't have huge bays and could only field 5 at a time, I don't see how this breaks gameplay especially given their awful, awful locktimes.

4. Fighter changes: Silly? As a person who's spent plenty of time using fighters, I can tell you that they're not exactly overpowered. They don't hit frigates and destroyers terribly well (or in the case of frigates, at all), they miss often enough on cruisers, and the only targets they're currently doing full dps to are BCs and up. Fighters already have pretty bad tracking and close / fast orbits-- changing their weapon sigs to 400 is going to render them far less useful for PvE without substantially changing how they're used in PvP (since you already pop normal drones to deal with cruisers and below in PvP rather than fighters).

5. Supercarrier changes (relates to dread changes too): I agree that supercap sub-fighter drone capabilities are literally insane right now. There's no way one should be able to sit back, sip one's mojito, and launch infinite waves of Valkyrie IIs at any tacklers on grid until all hostile tackle is dead. It's dumb. However, I think removing *all* SCs sub-fighter drone capabilities is similarly dumb. How about installing two drone bays-- one for fighters and bombers using your proposed numbers, and another for regular drones with, say, 250-350m3 capacity? This would allow SCs to carry one flight (20) of a variety of normal drones (say, a flight of heavies, a flight of mediums, 1-2 flights of lights and a flight of logistic / ewar drones) but would avoid the infinite drones scenario we face currently. I think this would leave solo / small numbers of SCs able to defend themselves against an unplanned tackle (say you hotdrop someone's ratting carrier in your Nyx, and just as you enter system, a hostile in a dictor *happens* to jump into system, sees a cyno, and warps to it) while still leaving them hosed in the case of a planned trap.

Under the proposed changes, a supercarrier would be totally unable to defend itself even against a solo Eris, since unless the dictor pilot is *edit* developmentally-challenged */edit* enough to fly into smartbomb range there's literally no way a SC could ever kill it with 400m gun-sig fighters or FB. Drones aren't that hard to deal with-- a bombing run or two or a couple of smartbombing BS would quickly dispatch 250m3 worth of drones. Leaving a 20b isk ship completely unable to defend itself against a single, 20m isk tackler seems kind of excessive, especially if the reason for doing so is "people are too lazy or unimaginative to find ways to kill 40 light drones." I think the same notion applies to dreads and titans as well-- there's no way that these ships being able to field as many drones as a battleship is unfair. Sorry. Dreads (nevermind Titans) cost 10x as much as a BS, you'd think that the inclusion of equivalent self-defense capabilities wouldn't be a point of contention, especially given that they'll be sieged much of the time anyway and their terrible, terrible scan-res will still make it incredibly hard to kill a skillful dictor pilot.

6. The Single Most Important Thing You Missed: Mother of God! The guns, they track the same! Titan gun tracking needs an adjustment. Badly. I don't know if you guys noticed or not, but DDs are currently the least of a subcap fleet's problems when attacking a Titan ball. Yes, its a pain in the ass to lose your commandships and T3s in short order to doomsdays, but what's a lot worse is when the Titans start locking up and alpha'ing all your battleships as well. I've seen cruiser-sized ships die to Titan guns, for god's sake. Compounding this problem is the fact that, on top of already excellent tracking, Titans can be tracking-linked. This doesn't make much sense given that they're immune to ewar (sieged Dreads are immune to ewar, but cannot be "remote assisted" by links, reps, or cap transfers), and it results in Titans being able to easily demolish BS / BC in fleet fights. Titan subcap demolition is as much if not more of a problem in fleet fights than supercarrier drones are, even with the current infinite drones situation. Please, please fix this problem (or at least, in the interests of fairness, improve dread gun tracking to be equivalent and don't strip Supercarriers of all their sub-fighter drones).

Overall I like where these changes are headed. I think Supercaps as currently implemented are stupidly overpowered, especially Titans. I would urge you to consider not *completely* eliminating the defensive abilities of supercarriers, especially given the incoming 20% ehp nerf and logoff mechanics change, which I think more than compensates for their lack of killability. Infinite drones are dumb, but I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed a flight or two of light drones. The same goes for Dreads.

I'd also consider removing DDs from the game entirely. Un-dodgeable, one-shot instagib weapons just aren't a good idea in a multiplayer game. They were a bad idea when they killed fleets with an AOE, they're a bad idea now when they kill people's fancy subcaps, and they'll still be a bad idea when they're relegated to one-shotting people's capital ships. Consider trading DDs for some other kind of useful perk / capability.

Wow, :words:
Dr 0wnage
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#538 - 2011-10-10 22:00:14 UTC
You guys are on the right track, but are missing a few things here...

Super HP nerf - Reducing 20% across the board is the WRONG way to go about this! Please look at the ships individually! As it is currently the Aeon has nearly 3x the ehp of the Hel, and more then some of the titans. That imbalance will not change with a generic HP reduction. Fixing the logoff mechanic will solve much of the "theyre too hard to kill" problem. Go for a balance, not a straight up nerf!

Fighters - Right idea, but wrong way to implement it. All this will do is make regular carriers that much less valuable in fleet fights. If a fighter can't hit a sub cap then wth is it supposed to hit?? Simply reduce the number of fighters supers can deploy and problem is solved.

Dreadnoughts - These ships are currently combat ineffective. There are no changes here that will change that. The 5 minute siege timer will help them avoid getting dropped by supers easier, but that in no way changes their effectiveness in a fleet fight. Dreads need their HP doubled (with an increase in production cost) and need a damage bonus to specifically supercaps. A general damage increase will not work as it will make them more effective against sub-caps and other dreads / carriers.

Titans - Can we say turret tracking anyone??

All in all its definitely a step in the right direction. One thing we all should consider is why do so many super pilots bring their ship to a fight? Well they can't swap to a smaller ship very easily now can they?? ;-) Is it time yet for docking rights?

More wonderful ideas on doc's super balance thread here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=13411
ScheenK
Constantine.
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
#539 - 2011-10-10 22:04:07 UTC  |  Edited by: ScheenK
MuppetsSlayed wrote:
What would happen if I sat in a corp pos with an ECM burst runing?
I take it everyone else there would just sit there till downtime even if they had logged off.


Hitpoints on Hel shouldnt be nerfed, even with a 20% reduction to the other 3 Hels would still always be the primary.


The drone bay nerf wont have the intended effect on supers since you can put 15 fighters into your corp hanger and swap out using another carrier or super in fleet.


Shield bonuses are rediculous compared to armour - its most apparent on supers.
Has any of the dev's ever joined a fleet with Levi bonuses applied to in a Wyvern?
Unless you have 12 hours to charge yourself up it takes the rep of an entire fleet of chimeras to get the bonus armour ships get instantly.


Should half a single squad of bombers really be able to completely eliminate all of the DPS from a blob of supercaps?
The way i see the first fight going down after this is introduced is, supers cyno in, launch fighter bombers, a squad of bombers launch one bomb each. Then the entire blob of supercapitals go home as they dont have other drones.



nah man nah
Vaffel Junior
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#540 - 2011-10-10 22:04:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaffel Junior
Gratz to Goonswarm and allies.
You have won this game.

- 3 acounts