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New dev blog: Unified Inventory Changes

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Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#501 - 2012-05-24 15:16:55 UTC
Problem:
I open my cargohold in-station, dock it to my assets window (which is also docked to my wallet, etc...), and then close the collection. I then open my cargohold again and it is in an entirely different place. Also, whenever I open my assets in-station the sidebar decides to be far smaller than I have set it. Once reset to the desired size and the window closed, the next time the window is opened the sidebar has reverted to the smaller size.

I cannot say it enough: Window state memory is CRUCIAL to playing this game; it helps organize our stuff and it saves us time. A tree-view does not, in any way, replace this functionality, especially when the tree-view itself doesn't remember its own size/position. This should be the first thing on your list to fix, and while you have mentioned that it is being looked at, I would just like to say that the game is simply not playable (or rather, not at all enjoyable to play) because of this simple issue.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Kievan Arakyd
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#502 - 2012-05-24 15:19:07 UTC
I love the new inventory. Just fix the small problems.

Got my Dust514 key...
Desmont McCallock
#503 - 2012-05-24 15:19:41 UTC
@CCP Soundwave
From my experience (as developer of EVEMon) I will say that in general people hate changes that acquire from them to do more than one thing.
The "Unified Inventory" is a great idea of unifying all items under one window.
It's a bit complicated at starters but when you get the general feeling of 'where is what' then you start appreciating the 'lesser popup windows' thing.
Bottom line, it will take people some time to get used to "the new way".
Fabulousli Obvious
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#504 - 2012-05-24 15:21:13 UTC
Kievan Arakyd wrote:
I love the new inventory..



Can you tell us what you love about it EXACTLY ? C'mon, don't be a shy one.....

I am NOT YOUNG ENOUGH to know EVERYTHING.  ~~ Oscar Wilde, writer, d. November 30, 1900
Kody Grey
Banana Pants Incorporated
#505 - 2012-05-24 15:23:51 UTC
Why did CCP feel the need to "improve" the game via this shiney piece of crap inventory thing? I must have missed the epic threadnaughts on the forums about how hard the old way was to use.

Thank goodness I now have to perform 2 extra keyboard/mouse click operations to get my screen to look before the change (every time I dock!), when I would dock in station and my Windows were open where I left them.

CCP are the biggest trolls of their own game.
Fabulousli Obvious
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#506 - 2012-05-24 15:25:07 UTC
Desmont McCallock wrote:
@CCP Soundwave
From my experience (as developer of EVEMon) I will say that in general people hate changes that acquire from them to do more than one thing.
The "Unified Inventory" is a great idea of unifying all items under one window.
It's a bit complicated at starters but when you get the general feeling of 'where is what' then you start appreciating the 'lesser popup windows' thing.
Bottom line, it will take people some time to get used to "the new way".



I can't believe I'm not 'liking' your post.

One of the most terrifying lines I've even heard in a movie was in the Wim Wenders film "Faraway, So Close" when they are having some passports or something faked, and the old former "political party beginning with an 'N'" guy doing it says (I forget why):

"People will get used to ANYTHING".

Not good advice really.

I am NOT YOUNG ENOUGH to know EVERYTHING.  ~~ Oscar Wilde, writer, d. November 30, 1900
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#507 - 2012-05-24 15:26:22 UTC
Marisol Shimaya wrote:
CCP
You have only one thing to do is this

Let all of us to vote on so we can desided what Inventory list we should us.

Vote
New list
or
Old List

This has to be final destions

Agreed ?



No need for a vote, just put a configuration tick-box in the escape-menu screen:
Legacy containers Y/N?

Then all of us who use POS, loot wrecks and mine can quietly go about our business with the old functionality and the few people who like the new system can use it.

As mentioned before, this is purely a presentation issue - no changes are required at the servers, merely a client update.


Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Misha Moon
Frog Morton Industries
#508 - 2012-05-24 15:26:30 UTC
Please put the corp hangers at least back to as they were.

Give them their own tree, completely separate from the other stuff - make it possible to open corp hanger of station, pos, orca etc the way it was - one main window with tabs.

Pretty please?

And please - do fix the names of tabs to display chosen name 'MySpecialCan' or 'CorpHanger1' over generic name (item hanger/corporate hanger).

Please.
Mistah Ewedynao
Ice Axe Psycho Killers
#509 - 2012-05-24 15:30:05 UTC
This new inventory is clunkier to use than a bicycle with square wheels.

If u had to streamline some code you could have just had everyone with Goonswarm self distruct when they undock. It would save them a lot of flying around and alt jumping. Twisted

Seriously, it is just plain is slower, more complicated and requires MORE windows open for what I do, not less.

I don't think u can fix it TBH.

Nerf Goons

Nuke em from orbit....it's the only way to be sure.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#510 - 2012-05-24 15:31:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Desmont McCallock wrote:
Bottom line, it will take people some time to get used to "the new way".
Ok, so here's an idea for you: in the next EVEMon, make sure that the skill plan and the skill explorer don't appear as new windows, but as tabs in the main window so you can't watch your plan and your current skills at the same time (and forget about comparing two queues side by side).

…see how long it takes for people to “get used to it”. Roll

Oh, wait, there's already a program like that: EVE HQ and it's horrid compared to the likes of EVEMon and EFT (for the latter, also compare with pyfa for the far more cumbersome “unified” way of doing things compared to the multiple free-floating windows in EFT).

No, it's not a great idea to unify all items under one window. In fact, it's an appalling idea, because it means you lose the ease of use, flexibility, and efficiency that comes from having multiple windows; of having specific view settings for specific inventories; of having window sizes and locations that are suited for some inventories but not for others. It's particularly appalling for something that tries to style itself as a kind of file manager, since every modern file manager is moving away from the horrible inefficient single-view layout that was modern back in, oh, the 1980s or so.

Sure, you can “get used to” being less efficient, much like you can get used to no longer having any feet. That doesn't mean it's in any way preferable. Any developer that strives towards offering less efficiency, less functionality, and less customisation and who thinks that people will prefer it that way needs to have his head checked because he's lost all touch with reality.
Shar'ri Atal
LoneStar Industries
#511 - 2012-05-24 15:33:48 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Shar'ri Atal wrote:
Good to hear of the refinements that are planned. Fix the genuine problems that exist with the new system but be confident that the new UI was a step in the right direction.

The new inventory UI is a huge improvement over the old one. It's a weird hybrid of the classic Windows explorer layout (tree on left, contents on right) with Mac OS spring loaded folders while dragging items. It works.

Now consider going one step further. Remove the Assets UI. Take the tabs from the Assets UI and refactor them as a popup in the inventory UI. By default you only show items that are within range as it is now.

Second, vertical space in the tree view is not at a premium. Make the row height taller and put a count of how many items each node contains there. This gives a quick visual indication that items are present and also that items have been successfully moved.

Third, don't display a dink (technical term that) or disclosure triangle if a node contains no children. It's lazy. Since you'll be showing a contents count anyway you'll be able to use the information as to whether there is any child items. If you're smart you don't need to worry about extra database access. Update a node's leaf status and item count when items are added or removed from the node. Memory is cheaper than walking through a tree of nodes.

Good luck with your crusade to improve the EVE UI.

Senjaz
(An HCI specialist)


Make the unified inventory BIGGER? are you ******* serious? Perhaps to you bear that wouldnt matter but when all i want is to quickly drop some ammo into a ship or refit a web into an eccm, theres absolutely no way any tweak to the new inventory will be as quick and labor efficient as the old one.

As for CCP being smart?

They cant even correctly order numbers as shown in the FW system contested status coloumb where contested systems go;
0.7%
1.4%
19.0%
2.1%
22.0%
etc..


To use your example in the old UI
1. Open ship inventory
2. Open hanger
3. Navigate to ammo supply
4. Drag ammo and drop into the ship inventory

In the new UI
1. Open hanger
2. Navigate to ammo supply
3. Drag ammo and drop it on the active ship icon

What if you don't like positive change and want to continue using the old way?
1. Open hanger
2. Shift click on ship which opens it's contents in a new window
3. Navigate to ammo supply
4. Drag ammo and drop into the ship inventory

See. You can even choose to do things in the older and less efficient way if you want to.

The fact that the new system copies Apple's spring loaded folder feature means that moving items between locations that are deeply nested is massively easier than the old system.

As for natural sorting of numbers this is actually not an easy problem to solve and databases don't do it in their ORDER BY clause. CCP could fix this by returning current DB sorted results to the client and then implementing a natural number sort in the client.
D'Kelle
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#512 - 2012-05-24 15:39:31 UTC  |  Edited by: D'Kelle
Zleon Leigh wrote:
Balder Verdandi wrote:
Copy Katt wrote:
There's a damn good reason the whole world uses windows instead of trees.

There are tons of things that the majority of players and CCP acknowledge are problems. Inventory management wasn't one of them.


Inventory management never had a problem. You buy containers for your station, "Set Name" to name them appropriately, and fill them. I have over 30 containers in one station alone to keep track of what I own.

I still don't understand why this was implemented when so many people tested it and said "no".



Containers are nice, except if you happen to be a corp with good people that freely share things around - containers are a pain in the ass then because you have to dock up to get a bloody module out instead of just simply contracting it from 3 systems away.



LOL if you think that is a pain you wait till you have to use cans from an anchored POS Corp Hanger, in simple terms u have to pull said can from hanger, put it into your cargo hold,,,,wait for it, damm the ships cargo hold is to small, now go get bigger ship, Start againget can into the bigger ships cargo hold, jet the dammed can, get stuff out, put wanted item(s) in cargo hold, scoop jetted can back to cargo hold again, store back into Corp Hanger Array, grab the items you took out of can and place them on Corp Hanger Array Deck, swop back to first ship and fit the items assuming your ship maintenence array is nearby (it should be, if not beat your POS layout guy with a big steel bar) so to use the fitting service it provides. God help you if your in a reall hurry!
Burzrujat
XieDu Fleet
#513 - 2012-05-24 15:41:08 UTC
It is sad that it had to be fixed AFTER going live when you had the very same feedback when it was on your test server. However, the quick response is appreciated and it looks like we are once again moving in the right direction. Keep up the hard work guys.
Fabulousli Obvious
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#514 - 2012-05-24 15:43:10 UTC
Burzrujat wrote:
It is sad that it had to be fixed AFTER going live when you had the very same feedback when it was on your test server. However, the quick response is appreciated and it looks like we are once again moving in the right direction. Keep up the hard work guys.



Fixed ? "Going in right direction" ? say wha' ? Shocked Where, when ?

I am NOT YOUNG ENOUGH to know EVERYTHING.  ~~ Oscar Wilde, writer, d. November 30, 1900
Captain Praxis
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#515 - 2012-05-24 15:43:40 UTC
Shar'ri Atal wrote:


...

To use your example in the old UI
1. Open ship inventory
2. Open hanger
3. Navigate to ammo supply
4. Drag ammo and drop into the ship inventory

In the new UI
1. Open hanger
2. Navigate to ammo supply
3. Drag ammo and drop it on the active ship icon

What if you don't like positive change and want to continue using the old way?
1. Open hanger
2. Shift click on ship which opens it's contents in a new window
3. Navigate to ammo supply
4. Drag ammo and drop into the ship inventory

...




In the old UI my workflow was:

1. Navigate to ammo supply in already open hangar window
2. Drag ammo to ship in already open ships window

Fewer steps were needed because I didn't have to open my item hangar or ship window, since they remained open (or were automatically reopened, whichever you prefer) every time I docked. I didn't even have to re-open them after logging off/on again.
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#516 - 2012-05-24 15:43:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakaru Ishiwara
Desmont McCallock wrote:
@CCP Soundwave
From my experience (as developer of EVEMon) I will say that in general people hate changes that acquire from them to do more than one thing.
The "Unified Inventory" is a great idea of unifying all items under one window.
It's a bit complicated at starters but when you get the general feeling of 'where is what' then you start appreciating the 'lesser popup windows' thing.
Bottom line, it will take people some time to get used to "the new way".
Would you mind helping those having a tough time navigating through the bugs and design flaws to better understand the value-add associated with this new interface?

I am 100% willing to listen to (or watch a video of) a helpful individual willing to demonstrate the efficiency gained, improved client performance and better usability introduced with the new Inventory UI.

To date, I have not yet seen such content.

+++++++ I have never shed a tear for a fellow EVE player until now. Mark “Seleene” Heard's Blog Honoring Sean "Vile Rat" Smith.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#517 - 2012-05-24 15:44:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Shar'ri Atal wrote:
To use your example in the old UI
1. Open ship inventory
2. Open hanger
3. Navigate to ammo supply
4. Drag ammo and drop into the ship inventory

In the new UI
1. Open hanger
2. Navigate to ammo supply
3. Drag ammo and drop it on the active ship icon
No. Let's correct those a bit for a better comparison.

Old system:
1. Drag ammo and drop into ship inventory.
Done!

You see, I didn't have to open the ship inventory or hangar, because they already opened automatically in the right position showing the right thing. They also stuck around during the entire process so I could monitor both of them at once

New system:
1. Navigate to ammo suppy.
2. Drag ammo to… no wait, how much ammo did I need again?
3. Navigate to ship inventory and check… oh, 1365 rounds, I have to remember that.
4. Navigate to ammo supply.
5. Drag ammo to ship.
6. Enter number of rounds needed.
Done!

Granted, steps 2 and 4 can be replaced by hovering over the ship cargo hold and spring-load so you see the current contents, but doing so means you have to repeat the entire process from step 1 for every ammo type you need. I can emulate the old system (somewhat) by opening a new window, which means I don't have to do as many repeat steps if I want to move more than one item type, but that is in and of itself an extra step that shouldn't be needed to begin with.

So no, the new way is, by far, slower.
Quote:
You can even choose to do things in the older and less efficient way if you want to.
No, you can only choose to make a temporary setup that works like the old more efficient way, but doing so is inefficient by default since it needlessly requires additional steps to set it up. The reason it's less efficient is because you have to use the new, inherently inefficient UI to try to replicate the old system (which can't really be done because the functionality has been lost).
Kasriel
#518 - 2012-05-24 15:46:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Kasriel
i notice for all the people saying "you just need to get used to it!" there still has not been one good reason as to why there can't be a check box to switch between modes.

how about it Soundwave? ONE good reason why it's not possible to put a checkbox in and "because we don't want to" isn't a good reason.
Fabulousli Obvious
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#519 - 2012-05-24 15:49:07 UTC
Captain Praxis wrote:



In the old UI my workflow was:

1. Navigate to ammo supply in already open hangar window
2. Drag ammo to ship in already open ships window

Fewer steps were needed because I didn't have to open my item hangar or ship window, since they remained open (or were automatically reopened, whichever you prefer) every time I docked. I didn't even have to re-open them after logging off/on again.



I tried typing out last night the steps I went through doing a simple Courier Mission and it just got idiotically long. Astounding to think about really.

I am NOT YOUNG ENOUGH to know EVERYTHING.  ~~ Oscar Wilde, writer, d. November 30, 1900
Fabulousli Obvious
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#520 - 2012-05-24 15:50:39 UTC
Shar'ri Atal wrote:

In the new UI
1. Open hanger
2. Navigate to ammo supply
3. Drag ammo and drop it on the active ship icon



THIS is perfect for those who only PvP.


Roll

I am NOT YOUNG ENOUGH to know EVERYTHING.  ~~ Oscar Wilde, writer, d. November 30, 1900