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New dev blog: Unified Inventory Changes

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Meytal
Doomheim
#461 - 2012-05-24 13:40:02 UTC
There are two bits with the Unified Inventory. The first is the internal inventory data structure, which by necessity and structure, is a tree data structure. The second is the visual representation to the user.

Honestly, I haven't seen one person who cared about how it was organized and structured internally. All of the concerns have been about the visual representation, which you've chosen to present in a similar manner to how it's probably stored internally. Unfortunately, not everyone's brain is wired to think and manage visual clues in the same manner.

The thing is, it would be just as easy to restore identical functionality to what previously existed while keeping the new work under the hood, unless the coding is such that everything is mixed up together. If this is the case, now is the time to fix it and make it right because everything is still fresh in peoples' minds. Always keep data and user interface separate!

Previously, we had a few cargo buttons (Ship Hangar, Station Inventory, Corp Hangars, Ship Cargo, Drone Bay) and a number of other right-click or double-click options on other containers. I would argue that it is easier to design a multi-window solution for the players than it would be to try to figure out when to use child windows and when to use the tree window.

Everything could reference the same internal data node, whether I choose Unified Inventory view or Multiple Window Inventory view, or whether I right-click my ship to Open Cargohold or click the tree node for the ship I'm currently flying in the tree view or click the shortcut that I've dragged to the Neocom bar. The only thing that is changing is how the data is being represented to the user. And the child/separated windows could really be as simple as a specific subset of the Unified tree view.

Some users like multiple windows. Some like the new Unified Inventory.

You really CAN give both types of user what they want, and probably save a lot of headaches trying to design a one-size-fits-all solution that will never be successful.


It would have been nice if you guys did the internal inventory code restructuring, which I'm sure was sorely needed, and replicate the existing visual functionality to test and streamline the code changes. Especially for something as fundamental to the game as inventory management that affects absolutely everyone.

Once the inventory code is rock solid internally, then add a beta-toggle option in the client for the new Unified Inventory format and begin to add new features, a handful at a time. It might slow down the development a few paces, but managing a few changes at a time each development cycle would be less hectic than trying to manage a lot of changes at once plus user outcry and downright anger plus making sure the internal inventory code is solid.

Believe it or not, people really will beta test these things for you, and I suspect you would have a wider reach than you would see on SiSi due to those who couldn't be bothered to set up another client for SiSi. I also would be so brazen as to suggest that proceeding in this manner would earn more trust and respect from your users, something you guys probably could use a little more of right now.

Then, instead of forcing it on people who would never like it and receiving negative feedback, you would receive positive feedback from those who do like it, causing some people who might have been on the fence to try it as well. The rest could continue to ignore it, and you could more easily ignore the usual whiners who complain just to complain.

We suggest these things and provide feedback because we care, and because we believe you care too. Please don't disappoint us.
Balder Verdandi
Wormhole Sterilization Crew
#462 - 2012-05-24 13:40:24 UTC
Wait until the "just use a filter" crowd ends up having to pick apart their filter when it bugs and they don't know why things are missing.





Grenobulax
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#463 - 2012-05-24 13:48:57 UTC
Just re-enable the saving of window configurations. I like my items hangar, cargo bay and ship hangar open all at once. And without having to open them every time I dock. Whoever added that "feature" wasted huge amounts of time for everyone.
And doubling the prices for datacores was a douche move whatever the rationalization.
Copy Katt
Doomheim
#464 - 2012-05-24 13:49:33 UTC
There's a damn good reason the whole world uses windows instead of trees.

There are tons of things that the majority of players and CCP acknowledge are problems. Inventory management wasn't one of them.
Jebediah MacAhab Dallocort
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#465 - 2012-05-24 13:54:44 UTC
ivar R'dhak wrote:
Sorry if it´s already been asked, but is there no way to have the old window functionality ALONGSIDE the new "Explorer"?
Simply speaking, have you just gutted and deleted that old working code?

I work for a game development company, although we don't produce MMOs. If CCP has a brain in their heads, they use a version control system. This means that they can roll back any change made to their code at any time made by anyone. So even if they have deleted it, they can go back, find the code they nuked, and revert it.

And yes, it is always possible to run two different UI types... If they designed the UI to take this into account, of course. If not, they can still change it, it'll just take a restart. The problem lies with whether they want to devote resources to that or not.

Judging by the forum response, they should not only do it, but make it a priority.

How to Improve Quality Assurance at CCP

Professional Programmer, DBA, Game Developer and Systems Analyst

Roime
Shiva Furnace
#466 - 2012-05-24 13:55:02 UTC
Actually, the ISK value display should probably be made optional, to be toggled via Settings panel.

Might help with performance issues. It's useful for some, but in many occasions it's unnecessary information.

For future development I'd suggest making the ISK value display role-based. Displaying the value of SMA contents to all corp members is somewhat unnerving...

I mean I'm tempted to steal even all my own ships P

.

Balder Verdandi
Wormhole Sterilization Crew
#467 - 2012-05-24 13:55:04 UTC
Copy Katt wrote:
There's a damn good reason the whole world uses windows instead of trees.

There are tons of things that the majority of players and CCP acknowledge are problems. Inventory management wasn't one of them.


Inventory management never had a problem. You buy containers for your station, "Set Name" to name them appropriately, and fill them. I have over 30 containers in one station alone to keep track of what I own.

I still don't understand why this was implemented when so many people tested it and said "no".

Zleon Leigh
#468 - 2012-05-24 14:00:23 UTC
Balder Verdandi wrote:
Copy Katt wrote:
There's a damn good reason the whole world uses windows instead of trees.

There are tons of things that the majority of players and CCP acknowledge are problems. Inventory management wasn't one of them.


Inventory management never had a problem. You buy containers for your station, "Set Name" to name them appropriately, and fill them. I have over 30 containers in one station alone to keep track of what I own.

I still don't understand why this was implemented when so many people tested it and said "no".



Containers are nice, except if you happen to be a corp with good people that freely share things around - containers are a pain in the ass then because you have to dock up to get a bloody module out instead of just simply contracting it from 3 systems away.

Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital. CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day

PvP's latest  incentive program ** Unified Inventory **  'Cause you gotta kill something after trying to use it

Elvin Gizza
Gerek Ore And Moon Surveying
#469 - 2012-05-24 14:01:32 UTC
24th page and im sure CCP Soundwave has stopped reading . Anyway my 2 cents on the slow inventory
if it didnt have to read everythign every time it opened it would be faster (duh really)

Also for the love of god or wherever other deity you like, make those windows persistent

And those windows, do they have to be so big? i have no use for isk value or a search field, make those avail by right clicking the window

O/
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#470 - 2012-05-24 14:06:17 UTC
Zleon Leigh wrote:
Containers are nice, except if you happen to be a corp with good people that freely share things around - containers are a pain in the ass then because you have to dock up to get a bloody module out instead of just simply contracting it from 3 systems away.
…and while that would be a nice use case for the Unified Inventory to solve, the problem is that it doesn't. Instead, it tries to “solve” things that were never really an issue by applying the misconstrued belief that all locations that have items in them are of equal value and use and that all of them share the same use patterns and needs.

The Unified Inventory would be a very nice upgrade for corp and personal hangars, corp and personal assets, for the S&I interface, and maybe for bulk haulers such as freighters, since they will commonly be loaded down with containers. Unfortunately, it only does half of that and instead imposes itself on inventories where this kind of contraption is quite counter-productive and cumbersome.
May O'Neez
Flying Blacksmiths
#471 - 2012-05-24 14:09:15 UTC
Quote:
they can go back, find the code they nuked, and revert it


except if the old code relies on old stuff elsewhere which was also removed, which requires also rollback and ending removal of more code than expected and narrowing the inferno release at the end to ... new missiles.
Adaahh Gee
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#472 - 2012-05-24 14:12:01 UTC
Zleon Leigh wrote:
Balder Verdandi wrote:
Copy Katt wrote:
There's a damn good reason the whole world uses windows instead of trees.

There are tons of things that the majority of players and CCP acknowledge are problems. Inventory management wasn't one of them.


Inventory management never had a problem. You buy containers for your station, "Set Name" to name them appropriately, and fill them. I have over 30 containers in one station alone to keep track of what I own.

I still don't understand why this was implemented when so many people tested it and said "no".



Containers are nice, except if you happen to be a corp with good people that freely share things around - containers are a pain in the ass then because you have to dock up to get a bloody module out instead of just simply contracting it from 3 systems away.


Ahh, so what you are saying, is that the ability to remotely, remove, stack and contract items from containers should have been introduced, not rebuild the whole inventory system.




CCP have looked at a wall in their house and said "Hmm, it has some holes in it and I don't like the colour" so instead of filling the holes carefully and repainting the wall, they've knocked the wall down, then put up a new wall that has not only got more holes and still the wrong colour, but is also in the wrong place and now obstructs access for people to get from one part of the house to the other.
Talia Araceli
Nuts and Vindictive
#473 - 2012-05-24 14:12:47 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Timbuck V wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Dex Tera wrote:
EvilCCP YOU GUYS SRSLY ****** UP THIS TIME......AGAIN
I DONT EVEN KNOW WHERE TO BEGIN SO I WONT EVEN TRY

will respond again latter with constructive critisisim and some good ideas on how to fix this piece of crap once im done being totally pissed off

Dex


.... The new system is here to stay so it is better to give good suggestions they can do instead of a useless opinion.


Ok so... Close this topic, that's a good suggestion for you I guess

For UI suggestions look a the forum, and pass over troll'nd whining post.
For my part my suggestions

- Static windows
- Double-clic instead of shift-clic or/and Clic'nd drag
- Orca corporate hangar windowed with tabs
- Grouping of different type of structure ( POS )
- Highlight of accessible structures ( POS )
- Naming Pos modules

But In anycase to begin with - "Reading the feedback of the capsuler test on Sisi Might have been a good starting point"



Most, if not all of those, are likely to happen :)

It will very likely be drag and drop windows and not double click though!


Bolded part is wrong. Everyone wants this, its intuitive. Why are you so reluctant to do this? This makes no sense to me.
Ad'Hakim Tahous
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#474 - 2012-05-24 14:14:24 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Zleon Leigh wrote:
Containers are nice, except if you happen to be a corp with good people that freely share things around - containers are a pain in the ass then because you have to dock up to get a bloody module out instead of just simply contracting it from 3 systems away.
…and while that would be a nice use case for the Unified Inventory to solve, the problem is that it doesn't. Instead, it tries to “solve” things that were never really an issue by applying the misconstrued belief that all locations that have items in them are of equal value and use and that all of them share the same use patterns and needs.

The Unified Inventory would be a very nice upgrade for corp and personal hangars, corp and personal assets, for the S&I interface, and maybe for bulk haulers such as freighters, since they will commonly be loaded down with containers. Unfortunately, it only does half of that and instead imposes itself on inventories where this kind of contraption is quite counter-productive and cumbersome.


This!

The heart of the problem.
Zleon Leigh
#475 - 2012-05-24 14:15:01 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Zleon Leigh wrote:
Containers are nice, except if you happen to be a corp with good people that freely share things around - containers are a pain in the ass then because you have to dock up to get a bloody module out instead of just simply contracting it from 3 systems away.
…and while that would be a nice use case for the Unified Inventory to solve, the problem is that it doesn't. Instead, it tries to “solve” things that were never really an issue by applying the misconstrued belief that all locations that have items in them are of equal value and use and that all of them share the same use patterns and needs.

The Unified Inventory would be a very nice upgrade for corp and personal hangars, corp and personal assets, for the S&I interface, and maybe for bulk haulers such as freighters, since they will commonly be loaded down with containers. Unfortunately, it only does half of that and instead imposes itself on inventories where this kind of contraption is quite counter-productive and cumbersome.


Don't get me wrong, Tippia. Big smile As implemented - UI sucks.

Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital. CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day

PvP's latest  incentive program ** Unified Inventory **  'Cause you gotta kill something after trying to use it

Wilma Lawson
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#476 - 2012-05-24 14:15:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Wilma Lawson
Overall, I like the idea of the Unified Inventory. It has taken me some time to adjust, but overall, I do like it.
Having said that, I also have minimal amounts of stuff, and it sounds like others who have more stuff have brought those issues to light.

My big concern is salvaging and I know many people have mentioned that as well. The new UI makes salvaging less optimal than the previous system. Based on your dev blog, I think you've got this covered, but it's not really clear.

My specific use case is when opening a wreck and looting it. It takes way too long. If the wreck can be opened in it's own window not the Unified Inventory, that would be better. I don't want any other window(s) to open while looting a wreck. I don't want my cargo hold to open, unless I've opened it. I don't even care about the estimated ISK calculations - which seem to be slowing the whole process. I just want to get my loot and move along, because you never know when you'll be ganked in Eve. Smile

I want to:

  • Open wreck
  • Loot All
  • Wreck hold window closes
  • Repeat and rinse


Hopefully, this all gets updated into a more efficient system than it is now. It would certainly be a shame if, after having survived the process to become a Capsuleer, I go insane managing my inventory! Oops
Dennie Fleetfoot
DUST University
#477 - 2012-05-24 14:18:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Dennie Fleetfoot
The amazing thing is that nearly a month ago on the test server feedback forum I made the, at the time, bold claim that many people would hate this with Incarna level's of vitriol.

I was told by many, that clearly hadn't tried the Unifubared Inventory on Sisi for more than 5 minutes, that I was being an alarmist and in that in no way was that going to happen.....

Skip to the day it hit TQ. Threadnought after Threadnought on the forums calling it what it is. Incarna 1.5

Suddenly, it's Soundwave, one of the SENIOR game designers, writing the dev blog and asking for help after Team Game of Thrones singularly failed to implement or follow up anything about the reams and reams of suggestions and feedback given about the unifubared inventory on the test server forums.

I think it's telling that Soundwave seems to have been put in charge to sort out this latest debacle.

And just so you think I'm not being totally negative. Every other aspect of Inferno that I've so far tried I love. Hell, if the Unified Inventory had been limited to just Assets I'd have liked it too. It's just beyond useless as a minute by minute gaming interface.

You should know by now what we don't like about and how to sort it out. Either fix it so it can be used in the way that WE, the paying customers would like to use it or man up, admit you broke something that wasn't and ditch it.

CEO Dust University

CPM 1&2 Member

www.twitter.com/DennieFleetfoot

vasuul
BLUE M00N Fetish Group
#478 - 2012-05-24 14:20:04 UTC
I see we once again have a failure to communicate
I thought when Hilmar promised to be more attentive to his players, when it came to changes we would not have these issues again , But sadly here we go again Roll

This new unified inventory system on a scale of 1 to 10 / -100 and that is putting it as nice as i can

you have to be a 50th level puzzle master to work it if you use cans in your corp hangars or personal hangars
what used to take a few seconds to just open drag and drop now takes several minutes while you figure out the combination of clicks to make the windows open that you want
Also I don't know if it is happening with anyone else , but when you expand the corp tabs for the first time after docking it expands slow and the immediately closes once it has expanded forcing you to open it again.

It is as bad as the intermittent bug you still haven't fixed when you hit transfer on the Pi and it closes for no reason and you have to reopen


Now the ball is in your court CCP Will you ignore your players once again leading to rage and indignation ?
Or will you step up and be professional and Admit that yes this is full of fail and fix it ?

Now this is not a flame or troll post, i kept my anger and posted respectfully , keeping my blood pressure as normal as i can
But if something is not done I assure you those with less cooler heads will Emo rage over their frustration

which leads to another question Do we have to rage , to be heard ??? Hilmar said one time he would wait to see what we do VS. what we say, by this very comment he forced what happened last time with Incarna
Is that the only type of action that will get action ??? I REALLY HOPE NOT

possible fixes
1. and the best option revert to the old way or give us the option to revert to the old way ( best )
2. at least put the corp hangar to where it opens in a separate window by default and put the tab to open in back on the lower right where it belongs (fair )
3. Scream and cry its your way or the highway and if the players don't like it they can quit , please note we felt like we saw enough of this action during incarna and while this is an option on your part it is the worst possible option you have at your disposal

Now we will wait and see what you choose to do


GodsSoldier Aideron
Slam Pig Syndicate
#479 - 2012-05-24 14:20:17 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Cyriacus Antonius wrote:
Will there ever be a way to revert to the old inventory system? I'm not sold on the new one at all, regardless of changes.


No, probably not. I will however go fairly far in implementing feedback that improves this piece of UI though. Feedback continues to be welcome.



so disappointing,,,, i mean it when i say if they don't "fix" and "update" the ui system almost to the point of how it was before they ruined it. i will not continue to sub. great for the few of you who like it, or are "going to have to get used to it" but for many of the things i do in the game, this new system makes it painful. and for those of you who make jokes about many of us threatening to "rage quit", have a good look at the server populations as they've gotten lower each week and even worse since the update!! i remember 50k a not all that long ago,, where looking at 20-25k now if ur lucky
stoxxine
OLVI industries
Inter Malleum et Incudem
#480 - 2012-05-24 14:22:53 UTC  |  Edited by: stoxxine
How about some constructive ideas for change?

I'm seeing all this whining, and complaining, but few suggestions or designs on how things should be. No, resurrecting all the old code is not really an option if inner or server workings have been changed. Please dont ask for something thats not going to happen.. over and over again.

CCP Soundwave wrote:

There are two things we´d really like to change but don´t have a nailed down solution to just yet.

One is persisting windows that only work in certain places (you have a window that only works in the station and you want it to be open and in the same location the next time you dock for example).



Here's my draft for discussion:

Add option to generic inventory windows (shift-clicked or other) to save it as a "specific inventory window". Specific windows should be named like overview settings and have a settings editor dialog.

Specific inventory window would have its place and size remembered (on client) and other settings stored in cloud.

Some settings ideas:

  • name
  • hotkey (!)
  • auto-open (for this station, any station, this ship, this shiptype, any ship, when suitable, only hotkey)
  • which inventory tree nodes are visible at all (cargo,drone,fuel,corp,station-items,station-whatnot, etc)
  • which corp tabs are included (all, can view, can take, selection)
  • whether the index is shown as tree or tabs (!) - or just corp hangars as tabs, otherwise using tree like usual
  • whether the window is reused or always spawned anew (think wrecks), and if spawned anew, whether it is stacked or separate (wrecks)
  • merge with station panel (yes/no)
  • - whether to remember display mode, columns and sort for each hangar/container separately or keep same settings for all tabs


A specific inventory window would close when it goes out of scope. It probably cannot show active ship cargo at all..

When opening a new location, the system would look for a specific inventory setting that most suitable (most specific), and if none can be found, use the generic "show all, reuse window" that it is now.

some examples made possible:

  • window with active ship holds and bays, as tabs, nothing else, ever.
  • "corp hangar 3" tabs from multiple POS labs, auto-open in separate window on grid-load
  • all corp hangars as tabs, auto-open on stations
  • two windows with two corp hangars, auto-open only in a specific station(s)
  • the current generic window is also an example, where tree mode is selected, all types and hangars, no auto-open, alt-c hotkey and always reuse
  • window with only active ship cargo. no tree or tabs even possible. alt-c.
  • window that only shows wrecks as tabs. autospawn on hotkey. autoclose.


A nasty example would be to select all types (like its now) and set that to display as tabs, you'd get a milloin of those possibly crashing jita local. Tabbed mode could limit to, say, two rows of tabs or something.

Note that stacked window and tabs are not really the same thing, but they are really close and easily confused. Stacked windows can be anything and have different settings, dynamic tabs are always instances of the same thing (multiple hangars or whatnot).

Someone already replied "this is too complicated". That is why it is called the advanced settings. Overview settings are also complicated, and for good reason. Same applies here.

And, just to be clear. Overview is single-window with different settings in different tabs. This would be multi-window with different settings in different windows (that may stack).

EDIT: forgot all about containers. you might want those as static windows also. maybe tabbed.

.. Should this be a separate thread? I'm not really that familiar with large forums, it seems everything gets lost in spam and clutter.

Disclaimer: The above was probably written drunk or by a friend on my pc or a hacker. No warranty for any misinformation provided.