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New Dev Blog: Carebearing 2.0

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Author
Sallisah
Doomheim
#421 - 2012-04-12 15:39:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Sallisah
Can you please explain, if it wasn't random, why ETHERIUM REACH got absolutely slaughtered on the this adjustment. It is nowhere in line with the other regions changes.

Quote:
The sec status changes aren't a re-randomization, they're a upwards (towards 0) adjustment of each system's sec. The process used to determine the amount each system is adjusted was intended to "smear" the bulk of the sec upwards without compressing the range too much. Systems around -0.5 shifted the most IIRC, and systems at the end moved the least (the -1.0 systems didn't move at all). Also, can't remember if I said already, but Cobalt Edge is untouched because it's a long-ass way from Empire and it didn't have really amazing sec in the first place.


http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/28092/1/devblogpic.png If I could just post the table I would.

So Etherium Reach, which currently has a sec status of -.6 will get nerfed to -.27.

This just doesn't make sense at all. it's not in line with any of the other regions adjustments.

ie. Malpais currently -.59 only goes down to -.41
Oasa currently -.55 only goes down to -.43
Perrigen Falls currently -.64 only goes down to -.45

No other single region even dropped below a -.40 (Kavala Expanse, from -.57). So WOULD you PLEASE explain why Etherium Reach gets such a sharp adjustment compared to the rest of the regions?

Going from some of the other comments about corporate/alliance income from refining, along with the absolute gutting of the true sec for Etherium reach, you just killed an entire region.

PLEASE, please... please give me an answer as to why you signaled out this region for decimation?

I can see this as nothing more than a tragedy. For crying out loud look at the individual sec status of your own table. A region that previously had zero -.01 systems, has bloody 30 of them now.

You have just killed numerous corporations, and alliances in this region. They certainly spent their billions of isk to establish their sov, and for what? So you can arbitrarily destroy it all in one patch?


CCP has made some big errors in the past, including the AUR debacle. Here, again, you have pages and pages of discourse on why this currently is a bad move to adjust the drone regions as planned. Especially without handling the myriad of other concerns that have been brought forward. From corporate income in the region, to the resulting inflation of ships. New players will be grinding for months to get into BS at the current mineral costs from just the speculation. You hisec miners and haulers, are going to be gank targets for a long time to come. They didn't buff your ships, and now you will be carrying fortunes in your tin can.

For the sake of the economy, and your subscription base, I urge you to delay this portion of the release.

(Friends, Brothers, Sisters, and all EVE players who agree... quote that last part and send a wall of protest to CCP!!!)
Wolf TheFallen
The Fallening Deafening Silence Syndicate
#422 - 2012-04-12 15:43:44 UTC
Finally Love for the CareBears

Down side, Drone are going to probably be need adjusting again to have some sort of loot table for meta 1-4 items. Along with officer loot.

All the tears from people crying cause they cannot Go shoot the **** out of things and make massive amount of minerals anymore. All i got to say is, all that SP in Hulk and Crystals is finally worth something again.

Now I'm waiting for the Cloaky afkers from hell to attack Twisted can't wait :)
Sallisah
Doomheim
#423 - 2012-04-12 16:00:45 UTC
Quote:
Wolf TheFallen]Finally Love for the CareBears

All i got to say is, all that SP in Hulk and Crystals is finally worth something again.



Hardly a miner are you Wolf? Granted... not a great record, maybe mining is a better profession for you. http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Wolf%20TheFallen#losses
gfldex
#424 - 2012-04-12 16:01:55 UTC
Wolf TheFallen wrote:
All the tears from people crying cause they cannot Go shoot the **** out of things and make massive amount of minerals anymore.


You mean the tears of folk that rented space out to RMTers without facing the risk to end with a phat negative corp wallet? The RMTers will have to train some hulk pilots now as it seams.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.

CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#425 - 2012-04-12 16:04:41 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Greyscale
Deathwing Reborn wrote:
So I have to write this all again because the forums just failed me again.

First of all Greyscale I would like to thank you for answering my hard questions on behalf of alot of people. I would however like to rebuttle some of your points here.

1. "we anticipate that a large proportion of drone ratters won't be bothering to scoop loot anyway " You do realize that ~70% (im guessing) of people in the drone regions have alt accounts for salvaging because of alloys right? I personally planned on keeping mine to salvage and loot just because that is what I am use to. If you would like for all of us to cancel our second account and leave you with who knows how many less subs, removing loot from drones is probably the fastest way to do it.

2. "so it wouldn't be a huge amount of extra stuff;" It is still "stuff" that you are not giving us the option to. You say that you are bringing Drone regions in line with the other factions in Null yet you are starting us out at a disadvantage. If creating a loot table is too time consuming or difficult then increase our bounites by say ~5%? Then at least we will have the same opprotunity for income as everyone else.

3. "This is a long-standing problem with drones that isn't really related to this issue" You just proved our point and why we are fighting so hard to make sure you do this right now. If it has taken this long and nothing has been done about these obvious flaws then we all know it won't get fixed in the future. That is why you need to take the time now that you are addressing the drone lands in order to fix these issues.

4. "which need some love, but which *are* nevertheless present" This I have two viewpoints on. One, before this patch drone faction spawns "sentiants" were 80% of the time worth 10-60k yes thats thousands not millions. They were worth LESS than a normal drone battleship unless they dropped capacitor consoles. Two, at least now they will have a static isk value set to them that will at least make them worth more than a normal battleship But what about the 100+million mods that other regions get? We still get nothing but parts for drones which we have to make that are worth mabe 1 million a peice.

5."The sec status changes aren't a re-randomization" Thank you so much for clarifing but I just want to clarify a bit more. So for sake of argument lets look at Cobalt edge that didnt change. So if I had a -1 system today after the patch it will remain -1 and in other regions if I had a -1 system it might be a -8 or some other relevant number that was scaled "upwards". This is how I read it but we have all been worrying that our -1 system might become a -0.1 system after the patch and viseversa for a -0.1 becoming a -0.9 or something.

I just want to thank you again Greyscale for finally answering the hard questions even though you still need to look at changing your plans in my and many others opinions. My post was more thought out and better written but the forums ate my post so I had to rewrite so I appologize.


In order:

- We'd very much *like* for everyone to keep their extra accounts subscribed, but we *expect* that many people will decide that it's not worth the effort of dual-boxing for ratting/anoms once their targets have bounties. That's just a consequence of the bulk of the wealth no longer being tied up in alloys.

- I agree that we're talking about 5-10% income at best, and again we're still of the opinion that this is probably balanced out nicely by the generally superior truesec values Smile

- I take the point that things sometimes take a long time to come to pass, but we're still not seeing that the loot issue is something that really needs addressing. We'd rather spend the time it'd take to add a bunch of loot tables fixing something else more pressing with the rogue drone.

- We totally agree that the drone commanders aren't worth what they should be, but again that's an old issue that's not directly impacted by these changes.

- Let me explain it this way: if you order all the sites in a given region today by sec value, they should (I think) keep that order after the change. This plus the image in the blog should let you ballpark the shifts you're likely to see. The changes are on Singularity if you want to look them up - system sec should be listed in the system tooltip so you can check the whole thing out from the map view.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#426 - 2012-04-12 16:13:03 UTC
Sallisah wrote:
Can you please explain, if it wasn't random, why ETHERIUM REACH got absolutely slaughtered on the this adjustment. It is nowhere in line with the other regions changes.


Etherium Reach got hit particularly hard because it was one of the best truesec regions in the game (-0.60 vs -0.64 for The Spire and Perrigen Falls, and just behind Deklein at -0.61, with the next-nearest non-drone region being Branch at -0.51), despite having a direct connection to Empire. It doesn't have a hisec connection, so it's more of a Tribute than a Pure Blind, but that's balanced to some degree by having a connection to both Molden Heath and The Forge. It got the biggest adjustment because its sec values were the most out of line from what you'd expect anywhere else in EVE.
Kalestra Cable
Faust Industries
#427 - 2012-04-12 16:15:08 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


- Let me put it this way: if you order all the sites in a given region today by sec value, they should (I think) keep that order after the change. This plus the image in the blog should let you ballpark the shifts you're likely to see. The changes are on Singularity if you want to look them up - system sec should be listed in the system tooltip so you can check the whole thing out from the map view.


Hey Greyscale, is there any chance of a data dump of the raw data for the new sec status of the systems?

I'm currently going thru the map noting them all down but omfg it's dull, if not no worries I'm booked off work what else is one to do !! Twisted

Sallisah
Doomheim
#428 - 2012-04-12 16:43:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Sallisah
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Etherium Reach got hit particularly hard because it was one of the best truesec regions in the game (-0.60 vs -0.64 for The Spire and Perrigen Falls, and just behind Deklein at -0.61, with the next-nearest non-drone region being Branch at -0.51), despite having a direct connection to Empire. It doesn't have a hisec connection, so it's more of a Tribute than a Pure Blind, but that's balanced to some degree by having a connection to both Molden Heath and The Forge. It got the biggest adjustment because its sec values were the most out of line from what you'd expect anywhere else in EVE.



Well at least I got an answer...

I think you just fail to see that without the comparable complex sites, loot drops, and soo many other reasons why this is an over the top adjustment. Not only will there be no drone droppings, but you have virtually ruined the opportunity for high value ore mining, with the overwhelming majority of systems having such poor true sec status as it's laughable. So, no droppings, no loot, no missions, laughable complexes, and so few systems worth mining. Hardly even compares to Syndicate, or Pure Blind

Too much, just too much.
gfldex
#429 - 2012-04-12 16:55:09 UTC
Sallisah wrote:
Not only will there be no drone droppings, but you have virtually ruined the opportunity for high value ore mining, with the overwhelming majority of systems having such poor true sec status as it's laughable.


You are making assumptions. Don't worry there will be proper strip mining.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.

CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#430 - 2012-04-12 16:58:55 UTC
Sallisah wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Etherium Reach got hit particularly hard because it was one of the best truesec regions in the game (-0.60 vs -0.64 for The Spire and Perrigen Falls, and just behind Deklein at -0.61, with the next-nearest non-drone region being Branch at -0.51), despite having a direct connection to Empire. It doesn't have a hisec connection, so it's more of a Tribute than a Pure Blind, but that's balanced to some degree by having a connection to both Molden Heath and The Forge. It got the biggest adjustment because its sec values were the most out of line from what you'd expect anywhere else in EVE.



Well at least I got an answer...

I think you just fail to see that without the comparable complex sites, loot drops, and soo many other reasons why this is an over the top adjustment. Not only will there be no drone droppings, but you have virtually ruined the opportunity for high value ore mining, with the overwhelming majority of systems having such poor true sec status as it's laughable. So, no droppings, no loot, no missions, laughable complexes, and so few systems worth mining. Hardly even compares to Syndicate, or Pure Blind

Too much, just too much.


Ore mining from belts is unaffected - as I mentioned earlier, we're not altering any of the belts as part of this change.

As to comparisons to other regions, ER (-0.27) is now sitting in about the same sec bracket* as Detorid (-0.30), Catch (-0.27) and Scalding Pass (-0.26). Pure Blind is -0.14 and Syndicate is -0.13. You get a very minor downkick from lack of loot and a larger one from the comparatively poor exploration sites, but then an upkick for better roids than you'd otherwise expect for that sec status. ER ends up being pretty competitive for mining, and reasonable but not particularly great for ratting, which is not bad for a region that's 20 jumps from Jita.


*I'm ignoring pirate home regions because obviously their spawns are better than their sec suggests
MALANDRA MAURA
BlackWatch Industrial Group
Brothers of Tangra
#431 - 2012-04-12 17:21:10 UTC
I need a contact number so I can call you all and talk in person about my character that was hacked which you all fixed but now you all are blowing me off cause of some other reson and to top it off my alt malandra maura isnt working now either sry if i do not believe in emials i believe in talking to a live real person on phone need a phone number asap plz. Tired of you all giveing me the cold shoulder two days of no one responding to my emials is not good and very very very very bad customer service and also dont have a 1-800 number is also a sign of horible customer service need to know now If need be I will report to the United states news and have you all shut down for anything wrong you all are doing.


https://support.eveonline.com/Pages/Petitions/PetitionDetails.aspx?20120410-2836160-56140C3F

Patence has never been my strong suit but when you leave a person hangen with no reponce back That is very very very bad. Been playing since 1/9/2005 and never thought I would get the **** you and **** off from ccp when i need them most.

Atum
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
#432 - 2012-04-12 17:27:16 UTC
MALANDRA MAURA wrote:
CryCryCryalso dont have a 1-800 number is also a sign of horible customer service need to know now If need be I will report to the United states news and have you all shut down for anything wrong you all are doing.
CryCry
Been playing since 1/9/2005 and never thought I would get the **** you and **** off from ccp when i need them most.

If you've really been playing this long, then you know CCP is in Iceland, and the idea of a 1-800 number is just daft.
Adunh Slavy
#433 - 2012-04-12 17:51:03 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Yup. It's not being actively pursued right now, but it's one way we've looked at of of addressing compression head-on.



Ok, thanks for the reply.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#434 - 2012-04-12 18:07:55 UTC
Atum wrote:
MALANDRA MAURA wrote:
CryCryCryalso dont have a 1-800 number is also a sign of horible customer service need to know now If need be I will report to the United states news and have you all shut down for anything wrong you all are doing.
CryCry
Been playing since 1/9/2005 and never thought I would get the **** you and **** off from ccp when i need them most.

If you've really been playing this long, then you know CCP is in Iceland, and the idea of a 1-800 number is just daft.

Also, no MMO has such a number that will handle issues that should be dealt with by petitions, just billing and tech issues. Such an issue need to be handled by people who have time to do the proper research, not by someone who has to keep his average call times below 7 minutes the way anyone who answers a cst support like does.

And as a final couple notes, discussing any petition like that is a violation of the rules here, and this thread has nothing to do with that, so please stay on topic.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.

Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#435 - 2012-04-12 18:25:47 UTC
I'd still like to see a response on:


  • Why incursion site de-spawning in terms of mothership kill & influence drop not been altered or even hinted to be changed?


The system currently is clearly broken with 4 hours of influence pump from 0 % to 100 % blue capsuleer influence.
Was this even something you considered or is it in your (read: CCP) eyes not broken/not needing a change?

Or was this already answered and I am just being ignorant?
Alice Katsuko
Perkone
Caldari State
#436 - 2012-04-12 18:27:39 UTC
Greyscale, thanks for all the replies. After seeing the actual numbers, must admit that I was wrong and that the removal of drone alloys won't be nearly as bad as I thought even in the short-run; now must admit that it will almost definitely be a good thing in the long run. Still concerned about inflation, but that's what you have an economist for. More concerned about greater stress on logistics routes -- a jump freighter hauling Tritanium from Jita is a jump freighter that isn't hauling tech-2 components or modules, but the greater income from bounties should offset at least some of the costs of fuel and time, and may even create more opportunities for traders and industrialists.

Also didn't realize that adding or modifying loot tables was this time consuming. But look forward to whatever loot rogue drones do eventually get. I think the biggest issue is not the lack of regular T1 loot from standard rogue drones, but the lack of any special drops from Sentient rogue drones. That said, Sentient rogue drones will actually now be worth something, since they will have a fixed bounty payout; at the moment most Sentient spawns are worth only slightly more than regular spawns, unless a player gets very lucky with salvage.

I'm not sure all that many will cancel their salvager accounts. Those accounts are usually used for other functions as well, and two accounts running in tandem should be able to clear a site more quickly than one account. And while there won't be room for new players to loot and salvage drone alloys for older players, it will be easier to run ratting fleets.
gfldex
#437 - 2012-04-12 18:29:38 UTC
Ammzi wrote:
I am just being ignorant?


You are ignoring 0.0 . So one could argue that you are indeed ignorant.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#438 - 2012-04-12 19:11:04 UTC
Ammzi wrote:
I'd still like to see a response on:


  • Why incursion site de-spawning in terms of mothership kill & influence drop not been altered or even hinted to be changed?


The system currently is clearly broken with 4 hours of influence pump from 0 % to 100 % blue capsuleer influence.
Was this even something you considered or is it in your (read: CCP) eyes not broken/not needing a change?

Or was this already answered and I am just being ignorant?

It was mentioned in the blog that there was hope that the decrease in the rate at which VG's could be completed would help to decrease the rate at which influence was gained, though who knows how much of an impact that will cause.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#439 - 2012-04-12 19:44:06 UTC
So you are trying to give love to miners while at the same time combating inflation. I think the currently proposed solution is an extreme over correction and too much change too fast. There is an entire aspect that you are missing which I will try to explain briefly.

Traditional PvE ( missions, complexes, anoms etc. ) earned isk two ways. One was to create new isk, this would be bounties and mission rewards generated by the server. The other was in selling loot, salvage and LP which was just moving isk around from player to player and not creating new isk to inflate the isk pool in the market thus driving prices up.

Incursions hit the scene and it's mostly just bounty payouts. A mission runner probably spends about half his time creating isk and about half his time looting, salvaging, sorting through loot, melting and selling etc. Incursion runners are full time isk printers. They speed run incursions and print new isk all day long. Further with the loot salvage people there are multiple points in that path where the server removes isk via taxes and transaction fees

Miners on the other hand earn all of their isk from other players and create no new isk by mining.

So your solution is to completely remove drone compounds and make it so that drones only give bounties turning the drone regions from a regions that could only earn isk from other players into regions that can only print new isk much like incursions but without the LP so actually even worse

At the same time that you are removing the drone compounds you are also removing all meta 0 drops which from what I can tell will be another huge removal of minerals. From my best estimates mining will have to more than double it's current output to break even system wide.

In this virtual universe the only real commodity and therefore the only absolute way to measure the cost of anything is time. Specifically how much time does a player have to spend earning the stuff that he gets blown up. So assuming play time stays the same for a given player if you double the amount of time it takes him to earn stuff that haves the amount of game time he has to loose that isk ( PvP )

While you have done some things on both sides of this scale I don't think it's balanced. I see prices going up and isk earning potential going down. This means players will need to spend a higher percentage of time mining and mission running as compared to PvPing. As a carebear I'm fine with that. I'm just wondering if you realize that this patch is a PvP nerf ?

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

Strongo
#440 - 2012-04-12 20:14:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Strongo
Once again, employees at CCP are not listening to what some of the players are pointing out and making the drone region not so good place to live in the game anymore.

I see all the cons and with no pros, with this change being done. things like.

- salvage is avg stuff, you can any in any other space. (Good)
- mining is the same in any other space. (Good)
- no sec increases for killing them (bad), you get this in any other space.
- they don't drop any type of loot, (bad) you get this in any other space.
- balancing of the space is off as well, bad tbh - I wondered if you threw dirt's at a well with maps of drone regions why drinking. Oops what areas will have no good systems in game.