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New Dev Blog: Carebearing 2.0

First post First post
Author
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#441 - 2012-04-12 20:17:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Tallian Saotome
ergherhdfgh wrote:
So you are trying to give love to miners while at the same time combating inflation. I think the currently proposed solution is an extreme over correction and too much change too fast. There is an entire aspect that you are missing which I will try to explain briefly.

Traditional PvE ( missions, complexes, anoms etc. ) earned isk two ways. One was to create new isk, this would be bounties and mission rewards generated by the server. The other was in selling loot, salvage and LP which was just moving isk around from player to player and not creating new isk to inflate the isk pool in the market thus driving prices up.

Incursions hit the scene and it's mostly just bounty payouts. A mission runner probably spends about half his time creating isk and about half his time looting, salvaging, sorting through loot, melting and selling etc. Incursion runners are full time isk printers. They speed run incursions and print new isk all day long. Further with the loot salvage people there are multiple points in that path where the server removes isk via taxes and transaction fees

Miners on the other hand earn all of their isk from other players and create no new isk by mining.

So your solution is to completely remove drone compounds and make it so that drones only give bounties turning the drone regions from a regions that could only earn isk from other players into regions that can only print new isk much like incursions but without the LP so actually even worse

At the same time that you are removing the drone compounds you are also removing all meta 0 drops which from what I can tell will be another huge removal of minerals. From my best estimates mining will have to more than double it's current output to break even system wide.

In this virtual universe the only real commodity and therefore the only absolute way to measure the cost of anything is time. Specifically how much time does a player have to spend earning the stuff that he gets blown up. So assuming play time stays the same for a given player if you double the amount of time it takes him to earn stuff that haves the amount of game time he has to loose that isk ( PvP )

While you have done some things on both sides of this scale I don't think it's balanced. I see prices going up and isk earning potential going down. This means players will need to spend a higher percentage of time mining and mission running as compared to PvPing. As a carebear I'm fine with that. I'm just wondering if you realize that this patch is a PvP nerf ?

I know quite a few people who LOVE mining, but rarely do it due to the extremely low profits you get from it. I gave up because it was easier and more efficient for me to use a salvage/looting alt to loot all my sites and refine the drops to get minerals for me to play industrialist with, simply buying the minerals I lack on the market.

All those people will end up going to full time mining the way they like to do once this hits(they are all already gearing up to do it) and as such will provide a fairly sizable influx of new minerals into the system, which should balance out the removal of drone poop.

Glad I love my mining buddies and so I trained that alt into orca/rorqual pilot after I got perfect salvage and scrap refining skills set up, now I can just tax them 10% of the haul for my services.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.

Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#442 - 2012-04-12 20:22:40 UTC
Strongo wrote:
Once again, employees at CCP are not listening to what some of the players are pointing out and making the drone region not so good place to live in the game anymore.

I see all the cons and with no pros, with this change being done. things like.

- salvage is avg stuff, you can any in any other space. (Good)
- mining is the same in any other space. (Good)
- no sec increases for killing them (bad), you get this in any other space.
- they don't drop any type of loot, (bad) you get this in any other space.
- balancing of the space is off as well, bad tbh - I wondered if you threw dirt's at a well with maps of drone regions why drinking. Oops what areas will have no good systems in game.

You have some of the best sec in the game, which means your rats will be among the best payout-wise(afaik sec status determines how many of each anom spawn, and how good the belt rats are directly), with the only thing holding you back from making more than everyone else being the lack of faction/officer drops.

Get over it, after this you will be making more isk that most of nullsec, on average.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.

Kalestra Cable
Faust Industries
#443 - 2012-04-12 20:29:23 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Strongo wrote:
Once again, employees at CCP are not listening to what some of the players are pointing out and making the drone region not so good place to live in the game anymore.

I see all the cons and with no pros, with this change being done. things like.

- salvage is avg stuff, you can any in any other space. (Good)
- mining is the same in any other space. (Good)
- no sec increases for killing them (bad), you get this in any other space.
- they don't drop any type of loot, (bad) you get this in any other space.
- balancing of the space is off as well, bad tbh - I wondered if you threw dirt's at a well with maps of drone regions why drinking. Oops what areas will have no good systems in game.

You have some of the best sec in the game, which means your rats will be among the best payout-wise(afaik sec status determines how many of each anom spawn, and how good the belt rats are directly), with the only thing holding you back from making more than everyone else being the lack of faction/officer drops.

Get over it, after this you will be making more isk that most of nullsec, on average.


He lives in the R-6 Loop so his space has all become 0.0 and -0.1 so not many anoms and belt rats will be amongst the worse in Etherium
Atum
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
#444 - 2012-04-12 20:30:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Atum
Strongo wrote:
Once again, employees at CCP are not listening to what some of the players are pointing out and making the drone region not so good place to live in the game anymore.

I see all the cons and with no pros, with this change being done. things like.

- salvage is avg stuff, you can any in any other space. (Good)
- mining is the same in any other space. (Good)
- no sec increases for killing them (bad), you get this in any other space.
- they don't drop any type of loot, (bad) you get this in any other space.
- balancing of the space is off as well, bad tbh - I wondered if you threw dirt's at a well with maps of drone regions why drinking. Oops what areas will have no good systems in game.

I *LOVE* all these "CCP isn't listening wah wah wah!!" posts. No, they *ARE* listening. Carebears have been pointing out for ages how destabilizing drone poo was, how drops were better sources of minerals, etc. Granted, CCP could very well be going too far in the other direction (as has been pointed out numerous times in this thread, drones ARE getting wailed on pretty hard, and it's not as if CCP hasn't overcompensated before), but all this 'not listening to players' seems to be coming from drone residents who are displeased about their lollies being taken away. I was both surprised and pleased to see this:
Alice Katsuko wrote:
Greyscale, thanks for all the replies. After seeing the actual numbers, must admit that I was wrong and that the removal of drone alloys won't be nearly as bad as I thought even in the short-run; now must admit that it will almost definitely be a good thing in the long run. Still concerned about inflation, but that's what you have an economist for. More concerned about greater stress on logistics routes -- a jump freighter hauling Tritanium from Jita is a jump freighter that isn't hauling tech-2 components or modules, but the greater income from bounties should offset at least some of the costs of fuel and time, and may even create more opportunities for traders and industrialists.

Let's read that again, shall we?
Alice Katsuko wrote:
...must admit that I was wrong and that the removal of drone alloys won't be nearly as bad as I thought even in the short-run; now must admit that it will almost definitely be a good thing in the long run.
...and may even create more opportunities for traders and industrialists.

Grayscale has already explained how the sec revamp was done, and it makes sense. Drones are still "better" than most other places, and there's nothing stopping you from installing upgrades to your ihub if you're that worried about the loss in sites/ores/whatever.
Sallisah
Doomheim
#445 - 2012-04-12 21:53:59 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
ergherhdfgh wrote:
So you are trying to give love to miners while at the same time combating inflation. I think the currently proposed solution is an extreme over correction and too much change too fast. There is an entire aspect that you are missing which I will try to explain briefly.

Traditional PvE ( missions, complexes, anoms etc. ) earned isk two ways. One was to create new isk, this would be bounties and mission rewards generated by the server. The other was in selling loot, salvage and LP which was just moving isk around from player to player and not creating new isk to inflate the isk pool in the market thus driving prices up.

Incursions hit the scene and it's mostly just bounty payouts. A mission runner probably spends about half his time creating isk and about half his time looting, salvaging, sorting through loot, melting and selling etc. Incursion runners are full time isk printers. They speed run incursions and print new isk all day long. Further with the loot salvage people there are multiple points in that path where the server removes isk via taxes and transaction fees

Miners on the other hand earn all of their isk from other players and create no new isk by mining.

So your solution is to completely remove drone compounds and make it so that drones only give bounties turning the drone regions from a regions that could only earn isk from other players into regions that can only print new isk much like incursions but without the LP so actually even worse

At the same time that you are removing the drone compounds you are also removing all meta 0 drops which from what I can tell will be another huge removal of minerals. From my best estimates mining will have to more than double it's current output to break even system wide.

In this virtual universe the only real commodity and therefore the only absolute way to measure the cost of anything is time. Specifically how much time does a player have to spend earning the stuff that he gets blown up. So assuming play time stays the same for a given player if you double the amount of time it takes him to earn stuff that haves the amount of game time he has to loose that isk ( PvP )

While you have done some things on both sides of this scale I don't think it's balanced. I see prices going up and isk earning potential going down. This means players will need to spend a higher percentage of time mining and mission running as compared to PvPing. As a carebear I'm fine with that. I'm just wondering if you realize that this patch is a PvP nerf ?

I know quite a few people who LOVE mining, but rarely do it due to the extremely low profits you get from it. I gave up because it was easier and more efficient for me to use a salvage/looting alt to loot all my sites and refine the drops to get minerals for me to play industrialist with, simply buying the minerals I lack on the market.

All those people will end up going to full time mining the way they like to do once this hits(they are all already gearing up to do it) and as such will provide a fairly sizable influx of new minerals into the system, which should balance out the removal of drone poop.

Glad I love my mining buddies and so I trained that alt into orca/rorqual pilot after I got perfect salvage and scrap refining skills set up, now I can just tax them 10% of the haul for my services.



Except all those folks stopped training their mining skills, so they could mission/salvage just like you. Put that along with the fact that mining ships have no tank, and it's just a gank fest. Hardly going to balance out IMO.
Sallisah
Doomheim
#446 - 2012-04-12 21:56:44 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Strongo wrote:
Once again, employees at CCP are not listening to what some of the players are pointing out and making the drone region not so good place to live in the game anymore.

I see all the cons and with no pros, with this change being done. things like.

- salvage is avg stuff, you can any in any other space. (Good)
- mining is the same in any other space. (Good)
- no sec increases for killing them (bad), you get this in any other space.
- they don't drop any type of loot, (bad) you get this in any other space.
- balancing of the space is off as well, bad tbh - I wondered if you threw dirt's at a well with maps of drone regions why drinking. Oops what areas will have no good systems in game.

You have some of the best sec in the game, which means your rats will be among the best payout-wise(afaik sec status determines how many of each anom spawn, and how good the belt rats are directly), with the only thing holding you back from making more than everyone else being the lack of faction/officer drops.

Get over it, after this you will be making more isk that most of nullsec, on average.


You forgot the fact that they also nerfed the sec status of the drone regions. Going to be fewer valuable spawns.
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#447 - 2012-04-12 21:58:33 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Ammzi wrote:
I'd still like to see a response on:


  • Why incursion site de-spawning in terms of mothership kill & influence drop not been altered or even hinted to be changed?


The system currently is clearly broken with 4 hours of influence pump from 0 % to 100 % blue capsuleer influence.
Was this even something you considered or is it in your (read: CCP) eyes not broken/not needing a change?

Or was this already answered and I am just being ignorant?

It was mentioned in the blog that there was hope that the decrease in the rate at which VG's could be completed would help to decrease the rate at which influence was gained, though who knows how much of an impact that will cause.


That decrease will simply be an increase in assault sites. Which give a bigger pump to influence percentage than vanguards.
It's like a black box. On the outside, incursions haven't been changed at all.
Hans Momaki
State War Academy
Caldari State
#448 - 2012-04-12 21:59:51 UTC
Sallisah wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
ergherhdfgh wrote:
So you are trying to give love to miners while at the same time combating inflation. I think the currently proposed solution is an extreme over correction and too much change too fast. There is an entire aspect that you are missing which I will try to explain briefly.

Traditional PvE ( missions, complexes, anoms etc. ) earned isk two ways. One was to create new isk, this would be bounties and mission rewards generated by the server. The other was in selling loot, salvage and LP which was just moving isk around from player to player and not creating new isk to inflate the isk pool in the market thus driving prices up.

Incursions hit the scene and it's mostly just bounty payouts. A mission runner probably spends about half his time creating isk and about half his time looting, salvaging, sorting through loot, melting and selling etc. Incursion runners are full time isk printers. They speed run incursions and print new isk all day long. Further with the loot salvage people there are multiple points in that path where the server removes isk via taxes and transaction fees

Miners on the other hand earn all of their isk from other players and create no new isk by mining.

So your solution is to completely remove drone compounds and make it so that drones only give bounties turning the drone regions from a regions that could only earn isk from other players into regions that can only print new isk much like incursions but without the LP so actually even worse

At the same time that you are removing the drone compounds you are also removing all meta 0 drops which from what I can tell will be another huge removal of minerals. From my best estimates mining will have to more than double it's current output to break even system wide.

In this virtual universe the only real commodity and therefore the only absolute way to measure the cost of anything is time. Specifically how much time does a player have to spend earning the stuff that he gets blown up. So assuming play time stays the same for a given player if you double the amount of time it takes him to earn stuff that haves the amount of game time he has to loose that isk ( PvP )

While you have done some things on both sides of this scale I don't think it's balanced. I see prices going up and isk earning potential going down. This means players will need to spend a higher percentage of time mining and mission running as compared to PvPing. As a carebear I'm fine with that. I'm just wondering if you realize that this patch is a PvP nerf ?

I know quite a few people who LOVE mining, but rarely do it due to the extremely low profits you get from it. I gave up because it was easier and more efficient for me to use a salvage/looting alt to loot all my sites and refine the drops to get minerals for me to play industrialist with, simply buying the minerals I lack on the market.

All those people will end up going to full time mining the way they like to do once this hits(they are all already gearing up to do it) and as such will provide a fairly sizable influx of new minerals into the system, which should balance out the removal of drone poop.

Glad I love my mining buddies and so I trained that alt into orca/rorqual pilot after I got perfect salvage and scrap refining skills set up, now I can just tax them 10% of the haul for my services.



Except all those folks stopped training their mining skills, so they could mission/salvage just like you. Put that along with the fact that mining ships have no tank, and it's just a gank fest. Hardly going to balance out IMO.



Well, maybe the Hulk gets her paper-thin tank fixed as a result! (just dreamin)
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#449 - 2012-04-12 22:00:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Ammzi
gfldex wrote:
Ammzi wrote:
I am just being ignorant?


You are ignoring 0.0 . So one could argue that you are indeed ignorant.


Are you talking about influence gain? If so, you must have forgotten that highsec vs. lowsec & nullsec influence gains are already different.
I am talking purely highsec.
Sallisah
Doomheim
#450 - 2012-04-12 22:06:42 UTC
Quote:

I *LOVE* all these "CCP isn't listening wah wah wah!!" posts. No, they *ARE* listening. Carebears have been pointing out for ages how destabilizing drone poo was, how drops were better sources of minerals, etc. Granted, CCP could very well be going too far in the other direction (as has been pointed out numerous times in this thread, drones ARE getting wailed on pretty hard, and it's not as if CCP hasn't overcompensated before), but all this 'not listening to players' seems to be coming from drone residents who are displeased about their lollies being taken away. I was both surprised and pleased to see this:

Alice Katsuko wrote:
Greyscale, thanks for all the replies. After seeing the actual numbers, must admit that I was wrong and that the removal of drone alloys won't be nearly as bad as I thought even in the short-run; now must admit that it will almost definitely be a good thing in the long run. Still concerned about inflation, but that's what you have an economist for. More concerned about greater stress on logistics routes -- a jump freighter hauling Tritanium from Jita is a jump freighter that isn't hauling tech-2 components or modules, but the greater income from bounties should offset at least some of the costs of fuel and time, and may even create more opportunities for traders and industrialists.


You will note that the author of that post in general favor of the changes is from Cobalt Edge. The one and only region of drone space, who's sec status was not nerfed on top of the changes to drone poop.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#451 - 2012-04-12 22:35:40 UTC
Ammzi wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Ammzi wrote:
I'd still like to see a response on:


  • Why incursion site de-spawning in terms of mothership kill & influence drop not been altered or even hinted to be changed?


The system currently is clearly broken with 4 hours of influence pump from 0 to 100 blue capsuleer influence.
Was this even something you considered or is it in your (read: CCP) eyes not broken/not needing a change?

Or was this already answered and I am just being ignorant?

It was mentioned in the blog that there was hope that the decrease in the rate at which VG's could be completed would help to decrease the rate at which influence was gained, though who knows how much of an impact that will cause.


That decrease will simply be an increase in assault sites. Which give a bigger pump to influence percentage than vanguards.
It's like a black box. On the outside, incursions haven't been changed at all.

Haven't been on Sisi to see for myself but from the feedback I have seen, yes, you are very much right. Seems that VG time was overnerfed and assault difficulty was overnerfed as well. The lack of mention of it and apparently reading too much into Affinity's comment had me thinking that the difficulty nerf for assaults was out for the moment.
Alice Katsuko
Perkone
Caldari State
#452 - 2012-04-13 00:48:54 UTC
Sallisah wrote:
Quote:

I *LOVE* all these "CCP isn't listening wah wah wah!!" posts. No, they *ARE* listening. Carebears have been pointing out for ages how destabilizing drone poo was, how drops were better sources of minerals, etc. Granted, CCP could very well be going too far in the other direction (as has been pointed out numerous times in this thread, drones ARE getting wailed on pretty hard, and it's not as if CCP hasn't overcompensated before), but all this 'not listening to players' seems to be coming from drone residents who are displeased about their lollies being taken away. I was both surprised and pleased to see this:

Alice Katsuko wrote:
Greyscale, thanks for all the replies. After seeing the actual numbers, must admit that I was wrong and that the removal of drone alloys won't be nearly as bad as I thought even in the short-run; now must admit that it will almost definitely be a good thing in the long run. Still concerned about inflation, but that's what you have an economist for. More concerned about greater stress on logistics routes -- a jump freighter hauling Tritanium from Jita is a jump freighter that isn't hauling tech-2 components or modules, but the greater income from bounties should offset at least some of the costs of fuel and time, and may even create more opportunities for traders and industrialists.


You will note that the author of that post in general favor of the changes is from Cobalt Edge. The one and only region of drone space, who's sec status was not nerfed on top of the changes to drone poop.


You will also notice that, to paraphrase CCP Greyscale, Cobalt Edge is on the ass-end of the universe. Perhaps the only region further away from Empire is Period Basis. So our local costs are potentially going to go sky-high, since we are probably going to have to import huge amounts of minerals or T1 ships, even though I am seeing folk with mining characters coming out of the woodwork every day. Furthermore, if you look at my posting history, you will find that I have been very critical of the very idea of removing drone alloys, and argued at length against it as a means of buffing mining elsewhere.

The truesec nerf was not unanticipated, nor unexpected, at least by those of us with a shred of common sense. The drone regions have had the best average truesec in the game. It would have been patently absurd for CCP to not bring drone region truesec in line with the rest of EVE.

It would have been nice to get module drops. It would have been awesome if Sentient drones dropped faction modules or capital components or somesuch. I would have personally been more than happy if nothing had been changed at all as far as alloys were concerned. But from what I understand, rogue drones will be getting proper loot tables or something similar at some point down the road. We may finally get new exploration and combat sites.

The removal of drone alloys will have a huge effect on the drone regions, make no mistake. But it may well be a positive change. Either way, we will have to see what happens over the next few months.
Atum
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
#453 - 2012-04-13 01:24:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Atum
Sallisah wrote:
Quote:

I *LOVE* all these "CCP isn't listening wah wah wah!!" posts. No, they *ARE* listening. Carebears have been pointing out for ages how destabilizing drone poo was, how drops were better sources of minerals, etc. Granted, CCP could very well be going too far in the other direction (as has been pointed out numerous times in this thread, drones ARE getting wailed on pretty hard, and it's not as if CCP hasn't overcompensated before), but all this 'not listening to players' seems to be coming from drone residents who are displeased about their lollies being taken away. I was both surprised and pleased to see this

Alice Katsuko wrote
Greyscale, thanks for all the replies. After seeing the actual numbers, must admit that I was wrong and that the removal of drone alloys won't be nearly as bad as I thought even in the short-run; now must admit that it will almost definitely be a good thing in the long run. Still concerned about inflation, but that's what you have an economist for. More concerned about greater stress on logistics routes -- a jump freighter hauling Tritanium from Jita is a jump freighter that isn't hauling tech-2 components or modules, but the greater income from bounties should offset at least some of the costs of fuel and time, and may even create more opportunities for traders and industrialists.


You will note that the author of that post in general favor of the changes is from Cobalt Edge. The one and only region of drone space, who's sec status was not nerfed on top of the changes to drone poop.

Awwww. poor poor baby. Maybe if you posted with your main, I'd give you a kitten (cute) on behalf of RZR.
Revolution Rising
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#454 - 2012-04-13 03:39:05 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
So you are trying to give love to miners while at the same time combating inflation. I think the currently proposed solution is an extreme over correction and too much change too fast. There is an entire aspect that you are missing which I will try to explain briefly.

Traditional PvE ( missions, complexes, anoms etc. ) earned isk two ways. One was to create new isk, this would be bounties and mission rewards generated by the server. The other was in selling loot, salvage and LP which was just moving isk around from player to player and not creating new isk to inflate the isk pool in the market thus driving prices up.

Incursions hit the scene and it's mostly just bounty payouts. A mission runner probably spends about half his time creating isk and about half his time looting, salvaging, sorting through loot, melting and selling etc. Incursion runners are full time isk printers. They speed run incursions and print new isk all day long. Further with the loot salvage people there are multiple points in that path where the server removes isk via taxes and transaction fees

Miners on the other hand earn all of their isk from other players and create no new isk by mining.

So your solution is to completely remove drone compounds and make it so that drones only give bounties turning the drone regions from a regions that could only earn isk from other players into regions that can only print new isk much like incursions but without the LP so actually even worse

At the same time that you are removing the drone compounds you are also removing all meta 0 drops which from what I can tell will be another huge removal of minerals. From my best estimates mining will have to more than double it's current output to break even system wide.

In this virtual universe the only real commodity and therefore the only absolute way to measure the cost of anything is time. Specifically how much time does a player have to spend earning the stuff that he gets blown up. So assuming play time stays the same for a given player if you double the amount of time it takes him to earn stuff that haves the amount of game time he has to loose that isk ( PvP )

While you have done some things on both sides of this scale I don't think it's balanced. I see prices going up and isk earning potential going down. This means players will need to spend a higher percentage of time mining and mission running as compared to PvPing. As a carebear I'm fine with that. I'm just wondering if you realize that this patch is a PvP nerf ?


Completely overlooking that mining with guns is not how any game let alone this game, is designed.

Oh the sweet sweet tears followed by the ridiculous abstract justifications (also known as a ... rationale).

.

sakurako
Eternal Darkness.
Initiative Mercenaries
#455 - 2012-04-13 06:33:04 UTC
ok i'm happy with the meta 0 drop removed means i can make profit on my ammo sales

drones with no loot or sec status incress is just **** imo,

have you taken the loot drop from another region and add up the vaule of what the avg rats is worth with the loot, alot of the meta 4 stuff is worth a good bit

sec status would add value to pvpers that like to hit low or empire gank thus opening the region to them for isk/sec gaining
Heathkit
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#456 - 2012-04-13 07:47:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Heathkit
CCP Greyscale wrote:

There are no competitively profitable sources of low-ends in nullsec, at least at current prices. Veldspar alone makes up 40-60% of nullsec ore by units available, it's just that people would rather be mining ABCs. That's an entirely different issue to there not being "enough" low-ends out there, and the situation is complicated by the fact that any boost to low-end acquisition in nullsec is a nerf to hisec mining more-or-less by default.

The solution is to enable exporting of low-end minerals from empire. That would increase demand for these minerals, boosting hisec mining, while giving people the ability to produce in null.

I think many of the problems with industry can be traced back to mineral compression. It seems an intentional design point that raw materials take up more volume than the goods produced from them. Unfortunately, this limits options for trading and producing - because raw materials are always larger than finished products, it's always more profitable to produce near a central market and ship goods to where you need them. This actually creates a disincentive to starting up new markets, and is part of the reason people cluster around Jita.

If raw goods were easier to move than finished products, players would have a choice - you could import a finished product and get it on the market quickly and easily, or you could import the raw materials and build the product locally, with the option of making more profit or moving more volume. Under the current system, the latter option is never economically viable - someone who just imports the finished good will always be able to undercut you. It doesn't matter how expensive or difficult hauling becomes - the importer always needs to move less volume than the producer.

You could make it easier for producers to source the volume of materials they need locally, thus reducing their import costs. However, this would reduce trade - a superveld asteroid or crystal in null would just isolate people, and not lead to a rich universe where different regions need to trade.

Instead, it needs to be easier to move raw goods, particularly lowends, around. Most importantly, it needs to be easier to move materials than it is to move the products you make with them - that way either producing locally or importing becomes a viable strategy, depending on your situation.

There are a number of ways you could make it easier to export lowends from empire - here are a few:

1) Create factory slots for compressed ores in hisec stations. This would be a specialized factory installation that functions exactly like the rorqual's mineral compression, though perhaps with a time modifier to make it slower. Hisec miners would produced compressed ore and sell it to nullsec and w-space producers for a profit. These factory slots could be anywhere, but I think it makes the most sense to restrict them to empire.
2) Enable the Orca to do ore compression.
3) Allow the Orca and Rorqual to hold minerals in their ore bays as well as ore
4) Create a new class of hauler with an oversized cargo bay, but only let it carry items from the "Materials" market group.

These are just a few suggestions. There are other ways to solve this problem, but the key point is this - don't boost lowend acquisition in nullsec. Instead, make it easier for hisec dwellers to sell their products to the nullsec population.
Daioh Azu
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#457 - 2012-04-13 10:56:51 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

This is good info, thanks.


I am a Miner. Why the capital m? Unlike some, I am not a casual miner. I recognize that true mining excellence is more than just train these skills, fit your ship this way, join Johnny's fleet, push these buttons, wait for the cycles to end, receive bacon. There are player skills and practices that are required to be your most effective and these should be protected. With that in mind, please consider these opposing views.

Gevlin wrote:

Ask you self why do people mine ABC vs Other ores
– It is not an issue profitable nor there being enough low ends it is an issue of Ease and safety! If those Ores were available then you would find those mining in High sec would be moving to null sec. Decreasing the Demand and Supply There fore no nerf and empire peeps will be able to find more asteroids to mine a buff.


What? I can't believe this really needs to be stated. People mine ABC over other ores precisely because they are more profitable. Mining is all volume based no matter what ore you mine. 64,000 Velspar and 400 Arkonor both have a volume of 6400m3 and both take the same mount of time to mine. However after refining, the ore you get from Velspar is only gonna get you 1,120,000 ISK at today's market, Arkonor gets you 2,816,000 ISK.

Professional Mining is all about ISK/m3 and living in nullsec with big, fat, juicy Veldspar rocks every you look does not change that. No Miner is gonna start mining Velspar at today prices as long as there is Arkornor, Corkite, Bistot, Hemorphite, Hedbergite, Dark Ochre, Jaspet, and/or Pyroxeres available. If Zydrine and Megacyte were to remain stable at their present price of about 1800 and 3300 respectively, Tritanium would have to break 14.5 before Veldspar would become more attractive than Arkonor.

Gevlin wrote:

In null sec High ends (ABC) are a lot easier and safer to come by because:
--> System upgrades produce hidden, difficult to scan, High Volume high quality roids that a hulk can sit at mine continuously for hours


This is exactly what is wrong with grav sites spawned by industrial upgrades. They reduce nullsec mining to its most base, uncomplicated form. Just warp the to grav site, align to your safe, target the big rock, and sit...for hours. No need to worry about cycle timing, no need worry about scanning. Just push button, receive bacon, and watch local.

Gevlin wrote:

--> In Regular belts the unit number may be small but the size per unit is large so a Hulk can get several cycles of a mining stripper off before the asteroid pops


The same thing can be said about Jaspet, Hedbergite, Hemorphite, Spodumain and Dark Ochre rocks. They tend to go untouched until all the ABC is gone. Care to explain why if profitability and ISK/m3 play no part?

Gevlin wrote:

Comparatively To mine Veldspar it is difficult because
-->The units of veldspare are the same number as ABC but the Size per unit is only a small fraction of the size, so they deplete extremely fast


Excuse me but I'd just like to point out, "that's working as intended." Veldspar has a volume of 0.10m3 per unit, Arkonor is 16.0m3 per unit. Since mining is volume based, Veldspar rocks with the same units of ore as Arkonor rocks will deplete faster.
Daioh Azu
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#458 - 2012-04-13 11:02:12 UTC
Gevlin wrote:

-->This leaves the hulks to mine veldspar on regular belts which is a lot more dangerous as they are on the over view and can quickly be warped to.


Right! I seriously doubt you sit in those grav sites unaligned and don't bother watching local because grav sites are just so hard to scan down. If you do, firstly, tell me where (my killboard needs your love) and secondly, you're doing it wrong.

Gevlin wrote:

--> The units of Veldspar may be large but the volume of veldspar isn't you may only get 2-3 cycles per roid before they pop. Resulting in a lot of partial cycles and a lot of relocating to collect veldspare to complete a manufacturing quota.


Yeah, I got that. Veldspar rocks deplete faster, but there are a lot more of them in every belt than A, B, or C.

If partial cycles are hurting your yield then you are doing it wrong. A skilled Miner knows how to avoid these. Only those playing the push button, receive bacon game have this concern.

If moving your Hulk is putting a crimp in your yield, you are again doing it wrong. A skilled Miner can strip clean most belts, nullsec, losec, or hisec and only needs to move his barge 4 or 5 times, so long as he's unmolested.

I can be hired to teach these skills, but it won't come cheap, and I'll demand payment in advance.

Gevlin wrote:

I though the current push for null sec is to be independent of Jita


While this dev blog:
http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2353
does mention making nullsec 99% self-sufficient by volume, it also says do it without breaking other systems or goals. Nullsec industry isn't hampered by scarcity of low ends. They are all around and usually go unmined. Nullsec industry is hampered by nullsec's residents.

Many nullsec residents don't see industry as an important alliance asset and actively discourage it. Usually the only industry that gets any respect is capital production. Often to the point that alliance leadership will reserve outpost manufacturing slots solely for capital component production. This pushes all other manufacturing to high overhead starbase assembly arrays which can't compete with virtually free hisec manufacturing slots. Then they'll have the nerve to complain that your prices are 20% higher than Jita. "Oh and by the way, the next time you make a run to Jita, could you jump something in for me...for next to nothing...please?" Sound familiar anyone?
Daioh Azu
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#459 - 2012-04-13 11:03:28 UTC
Gevlin wrote:

Requested Recommendation:
For hidden Upgraded Belts
--> Substitute the Sportsman Asteroid with Veldspar but increase the unit sizes so a hulk has to mine the same volume to finish it off. (that would be so awesome)


Oh man, so close, but still not quite there. You almost realize that your low end mineral issue is a volume problem, but you're still trying to tackle it as if it's a supply issue. Let me help you out here. You have no problem shipping your surplus high ends off to empire to sell, you just don't want to have to import all that Trit. Mineral compression helps. The best practical choice you've got are Gas Cloud Harvesters at about 42:1, not bad but not good enough.

Wait a minute. Isn't all that Meta 0 loot gonna disappear? Yeah, I think I read that somewhere. Weren't they gonna replace it with something? Yeah, I thought it was Metal Scraps. Let's see, Metal Scraps have a volume of 0.01m3. Trit has a volume of 0.01m3. OK, 1 Metal Scrap refines into 500 Trit. That's a compression ratio of 500:1. That a 1190% improvement, and rats are gonna start dropping it like rain. All you've got to do is convince someone to stand outside with a bucket!

Gevlin wrote:

-->Allow us to instal mining upgrade that can change the make up of the asteriod. If there was a level 1 mining upgrade that contained only Empire base ores you would be the toast of the town.(as we could just keep flipping that one belt over and over till we got the empire ores we needed) (this one fix would make null sec self sustainable and allow miners to fill local quotas easily)
-->Allow us to instal mining upgrades that focus on Hebergite and lower would solve the Noxium bottle neck that is currently felt.


Oh please! Please no! Not either of these! Let's not be giving sov holders the ability to select the flavor of teat at which their Hulks suckle for hours! It's bad game design and bad economics.

Gevlin wrote:

For standard null sec belts
--> increase the amount of veldspar in each asteroid


Why? So there they can contain ever more ore that won't be mined?

Gevlin wrote:

Or Bring out new tools to mine
- Bring out a tool that would allow use to mine multiple asteroids as once ie a Mining drone the size of fighters that can only hit Empire ore types, to allow Carriers and and Super Carriers to mine 10 to 20 asteroids at the same time. Via jet can mining. Leaving the high end and longer to mine asteroids for barges to complete.


No, not this! Any increase in mining yield in nullsec will simply be used where it has always been used, and that is to mine more high ends. If it is an increase specifically targeted solely at empire ores, nullsec miners still won't use it so long as there is a more valuable ore to be mined.

Gevlin wrote:

In summary:
Make all ores as easy to come by as ABCs. This will encourage the miners who would have been out in null sec for production out there. As it sits with the Dominion Expansion they are in empire where Empire ores are easier and safe to come by. Also remember Upgrade Belts Flip, Regular belts don't.
Increasing the access and safety to Empire ore will move those miners who mine for production out to null sec, there for decreasing the supply and demand for Empire ores resulting in a Buff to empire mining since asteroids will be easier to come by.


In summary:

Empire ores are as easy to come by in nullsec as ABC, they just aren't mined because there are other, more valuable ores to mine instead.

Miners will not suddenly flock to nullsec to mine empire ores just because there is more ore in the rocks. If that was the case they'd already be there. Veldspar rocks don't get any bigger than the ones in losec and nullsec, yet they float safely in space, secure in the knowledge that no strip miner will touch them.

Nullsec industry will not improve until nullsec residents understand that a healthy alliance industrial arm means ships and fitting can be available at home at competitive prices with Jita, and that prices competitive with Jita can't be obtained when shackled with POS overhead.

Any increase in mining yield will be utilized where it have always been utilized, to mine the most valuable ore available.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#460 - 2012-04-13 12:13:56 UTC
Daioh Azu wrote:

Any increase in mining yield will be utilized where it have always been utilized, to mine the most valuable ore available.


0.0 belts don't have infinite amounts of every ore. Once all the ABCM is gone, it's gone until the belt respawns (2x a week?). If the values of other ores are worth undocking the Hulks for, they'll get mined.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016