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New Dev Blog: Carebearing 2.0

First post First post
Author
CNL Jack Oniel
State War Academy
Caldari State
#401 - 2012-04-12 11:43:41 UTC  |  Edited by: CNL Jack Oniel
CCP Affinity wrote:
DaDutchDude wrote:
Interesting changes which are already shaping EVE mineral markets today.

So a couple of questions:
1) Will Rogue Drones start dropping normal loot?
2) Will Rogue Drones salvage be increased? It seems today their salvage is quite below par.
3) Will you look into Rogue Drone exploration sites and escalations? Currently, their value is very low (who really wants 'augmented' or 'Integrated' drones?) and could use some new modules / blue prints / etc to be as interesting as the pirate faction drops.
4) How long will it take for the insurance values to adjust to the change in mineral prices? Already, the mineral prices have shot up significantly, and I assume the market will take months after this (if not longer) to adjust to the new realities. It seems a bit unfair if the insurance value for T1 ships lags so far behind players don't get compensated for these drastic changes.
5) Your blog doesn't mention this, but there's also talk about eliminating all T1 module drops from all NPCs. Can you confirm? And does that mean less loot, or will the entire loot drop table be revised to replace T1 drops with meta modules, and thereby reducing the chance for meta 4 modules?



1. No - Commander groups have loot tables, regular deadspace rogue drones don't
2. at the moment we have no plans to do this - but who knows!
3. We will definitely look into this :) not confirming we will do anything about it right away but it's definitely on our list of things to investigate
4. Pretty impossible for me to answer that and I am definitely not the person to be doing so - would need to be someone from research and statistics
5. confirmed - they will be replaced with metal scraps



I am sorry ccp but this is way out of order no loots for drones . they fire guns they also rep and fire torps so in theory they have the mods on the ships . u have really nerfed the drone regions here and this is really bad . look at the amount of guys saying how much u are nerfing drone lands . no suprise legion of xdeath did not try and defend there space they new this nerf was coming u are really gogin to hurt the drone lands here and turn it into a ghost space every other region has faction loot every other region has officer spawns every other region has loot what a joke u guys say u are listening to players as quoted by your head guy in fanfest many times . now listen to all the guys in and to what they are saying . I do not have an issue with drone not dropping alloys any more just make sure that they are in line with other regions .
Deathwing Reborn
#402 - 2012-04-12 13:05:22 UTC
So Greyscale,

I have seen aloy of replies from you in this thread, almost all of them reguarding things that in my opinion were correct in the first place and the player base just didn't quite understand them (sec status, mineral distribution and what not.) But when are you and Affinity going to start answering the real questions of why you deem it nessasarry to not give drones loot or better faction loot for that matter? Is it just because you don't have the answer to your own reasoning or that you hadn't thought about it? I seen you quote a post with "sugestions" that have been circulating the forum for weeks if not months and say good ideas, yet you probably haven't seen them before.

Somewhere in this thread one of the two of you said that you have listened to the playerbase and had good feedback, but I do not see anywhere in this Dev blog that hints to that fact. Ok, so I understand that changing the loot tables for hundreds of NPC's might be time consuming, I also understand that it might also take a while to build drone loot tables from scratch. But why do something half*ssed and screw over 1/5? of null sec for who knows how long just because your lazy or don't have the time? I can also understand that this might just be a directive from (Soundwave? or some other management figure?) to get the drone alloys removed in escalation or else. But, they too have said that they listen to the playerbase. Get their sorry *sses in this thread and read the comments and realize they need to either find the resources to do this right or they just need to delay the Drone region changes. If this has really been on CCP's agenda for as long as you say there should have been plenty of time to prep for this and do it right.

I also dislike your half truth and half explained answers. The main one that I would like answered is if the security status change is going to be a rerandomization of all of the systems in drone regions or if they are going to be manually changed given what current statuses are. I just moved into a new system and I want to know if it is going to go from a -.9 to a -.1 over night. The second is how you can justify giving us the "same progression of bounties" as the other regions yet give us no loot and expect that to be equal. Before anyone says "Not all regions are meant to be equal" just shut it becasue if that was the case you wouldn't be removing drone alloys from the game.

As I have stated in other posts in this thread and others, I believe you all are not putting the time and attention that should be warrented with this scale of a change and simply ignoring the playerbase it affects like you have done in the past for other Drone region changes. I would like some sort of comment on these issues and not something that you are simply clarifing for people that were understandable changes in the first place.

Kalestra Cable
Faust Industries
#403 - 2012-04-12 13:15:22 UTC
The sec status changes are up on the test server right now.

It is apparently worked out on by how close your are to empire, here is a sample of them

LXQ2-T -0.1
8KE-YS -0.1
ZS-PNI -0.1
9F-3CR -0.3
2G-VDP -0.2
R-6KYM -0.1
JTA2-2 -0.1
3H58-R -0.0
RV-GA8 -0.1
GTY-FW -0.1
TP-RTO -0.0
BNX-AS -0.4
FB-MPY -0.4
F9-FUV -0.7
IACJ-6 -0.5
RO-0PZ -0.5
XB-9U2 -0.4
ichn
Stoned Clones
#404 - 2012-04-12 13:31:16 UTC
Blakslabeth wrote:
So the summary is:

#1 More expensive ships
#2 Less ability to make isk in incursions
#3 If you live in the drone region your true sec now sucks.

Hard to get excited about 3 nerfs in one blog.

I, too, hate everything.
ichn
Stoned Clones
#405 - 2012-04-12 13:33:17 UTC
Deathwing Reborn wrote:
Before anyone says "Not all regions are meant to be equal" just shut it becasue if that was the case you wouldn't be removing drone alloys from the game.

Removing drone alloys isn't about balancing certain regions with others, it's about fixing an objectively broken part of the game.
Eva Volkova
Perkone
Caldari State
#406 - 2012-04-12 13:45:07 UTC
A lot of questions are being answered about the same topic but when we try to ask you about the "balance" of the drone region you keep looking away. Please say something so we dont think you are avoiding us.

Each npc in the game had loot (until incursions). The income of a ratter comes from bounties, loot and officer modules.
Whats the reasoning behind only bounties to drones? no time? no idea what to put in? Please say so. Maybe we can help.

En each other region sometime haulers spam. will drone regions have them?

Salvage of the drones is subpar. will you look into it?

Deadspace/exploration.

" In Crucible 1.5, released on 13th March 2012, he added 3 more deadspace sites, bringing us to a point where we now have all 1/10 to 10/10 pirate deadspace sites in game, bringing this project close to completion. "

Now that drones are like any other. will you look for drone deadspace sites? As you mention completion its seems drone deadspace isnt going to be look at.

Most of us like the changes to bounties but it seems you didnt take into acount that you will nerf the drone regions so much.


EvA
Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries
TOHA Conglomerate
#407 - 2012-04-12 13:45:41 UTC
How about instead of getting metal scraps, we get BPCs (1 run, unresearched) of the thing that would have dropped?
St Mio
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#408 - 2012-04-12 13:51:41 UTC  |  Edited by: St Mio
Eva Volkova wrote:
Now that drones are like any other. will you look for drone deadspace sites? As you mention completion its seems drone deadspace isnt going to be look at.


CCP Affinity wrote:
DaDutchDude wrote:
3) Will you look into Rogue Drone exploration sites and escalations? Currently, their value is very low (who really wants 'augmented' or 'Integrated' drones?) and could use some new modules / blue prints / etc to be as interesting as the pirate faction drops.

3. We will definitely look into this :) not confirming we will do anything about it right away but it's definitely on our list of things to investigate

Source: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1106787#post1106787
Eva Volkova
Perkone
Caldari State
#409 - 2012-04-12 13:57:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Eva Volkova
Rebalancing the ones we have an filling the gaps making new ones is diferent. we dont have 1 to 10.

EvA
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#410 - 2012-04-12 13:58:46 UTC
Deathwing Reborn wrote:
So Greyscale,

I have seen aloy of replies from you in this thread, almost all of them reguarding things that in my opinion were correct in the first place and the player base just didn't quite understand them (sec status, mineral distribution and what not.) But when are you and Affinity going to start answering the real questions of why you deem it nessasarry to not give drones loot or better faction loot for that matter? Is it just because you don't have the answer to your own reasoning or that you hadn't thought about it? I seen you quote a post with "sugestions" that have been circulating the forum for weeks if not months and say good ideas, yet you probably haven't seen them before.

Somewhere in this thread one of the two of you said that you have listened to the playerbase and had good feedback, but I do not see anywhere in this Dev blog that hints to that fact. Ok, so I understand that changing the loot tables for hundreds of NPC's might be time consuming, I also understand that it might also take a while to build drone loot tables from scratch. But why do something half*ssed and screw over 1/5? of null sec for who knows how long just because your lazy or don't have the time? I can also understand that this might just be a directive from (Soundwave? or some other management figure?) to get the drone alloys removed in escalation or else. But, they too have said that they listen to the playerbase. Get their sorry *sses in this thread and read the comments and realize they need to either find the resources to do this right or they just need to delay the Drone region changes. If this has really been on CCP's agenda for as long as you say there should have been plenty of time to prep for this and do it right.

I also dislike your half truth and half explained answers. The main one that I would like answered is if the security status change is going to be a rerandomization of all of the systems in drone regions or if they are going to be manually changed given what current statuses are. I just moved into a new system and I want to know if it is going to go from a -.9 to a -.1 over night. The second is how you can justify giving us the "same progression of bounties" as the other regions yet give us no loot and expect that to be equal. Before anyone says "Not all regions are meant to be equal" just shut it becasue if that was the case you wouldn't be removing drone alloys from the game.

As I have stated in other posts in this thread and others, I believe you all are not putting the time and attention that should be warrented with this scale of a change and simply ignoring the playerbase it affects like you have done in the past for other Drone region changes. I would like some sort of comment on these issues and not something that you are simply clarifing for people that were understandable changes in the first place.



The decision not to add normal loot was due to a melange of reasons, including: we're phasing out Meta 0 loot anyway, so it wouldn't be a huge amount of extra stuff; we don't have any clear template for what sort of modules drones should drop; drone truesec, even after the change, is still noticeably better than the rest of nullsec (on average ~33% lower) so the average bounty income is expected to be higher than elsewhere; we anticipate that a large proportion of drone ratters won't be bothering to scoop loot anyway as there's no pressing need to dual-box once we remove the alloy drops, and looting is inefficient and somewhat risky; and it'd be a reasonably large chunk of work that given the above considerations we feel would be better spent elsewhere (eg, removing the Meta 0 loot).

The decision not to add additional faction loot beyond the drone parts (which need some love, but which *are* nevertheless present) was mainly just because identifying what they should drop, and potentially adding and balancing new equipment, was too big a task for us to take on right now. This is a long-standing problem with drones that isn't really related to this issue, same with the complexes and profession sites. However, this change does put us in a much better starting-point to address these problems.

The sec status changes aren't a re-randomization, they're a upwards (towards 0) adjustment of each system's sec. The process used to determine the amount each system is adjusted was intended to "smear" the bulk of the sec upwards without compressing the range too much. Systems around -0.5 shifted the most IIRC, and systems at the end moved the least (the -1.0 systems didn't move at all). Also, can't remember if I said already, but Cobalt Edge is untouched because it's a long-ass way from Empire and it didn't have really amazing sec in the first place.

Same progression of bounties was because, as above, we're not anticipating the meta1-4 loot making up a huge chunk of the actual profits being generated, and because the sec status in the drone regions is *still* really damn good.
Deathwing Reborn
#411 - 2012-04-12 14:02:12 UTC
ichn wrote:
Deathwing Reborn wrote:
Before anyone says "Not all regions are meant to be equal" just shut it becasue if that was the case you wouldn't be removing drone alloys from the game.

Removing drone alloys isn't about balancing certain regions with others, it's about fixing an objectively broken part of the game.


You are half corrrect. The issue still stands that most people did not want to live in drone lands because of the alloys and the time and effort it took to actually make isk. Hence why Drone regions were always deemed the worst place to live in Null. The people that lived there however made a system that thrived despite the adversaties and CCP has been trying to push drone regions back down to be the lowest desired region of space by nerf after nerf. I am confident that we will make drone regions prosper again no matter what CCP does this time around and we will be looking at another round of nerfs in another 6 months instread of fixing all the things they are missing this time around.

I do have to say one thing about bounties though. At least now my sentient will be worth something now. Before 90% of faction spawns were worth between 10k and 60k, now at least they will all be worth millions even if they don't drop any decent salvage.
ichn
Stoned Clones
#412 - 2012-04-12 14:08:59 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
The sec status changes aren't a re-randomization, they're a upwards (towards 0) adjustment of each system's sec. The process used to determine the amount each system is adjusted was intended to "smear" the bulk of the sec upwards without compressing the range too much. Systems around -0.5 shifted the most IIRC, and systems at the end moved the least (the -1.0 systems didn't move at all). Also, can't remember if I said already, but Cobalt Edge is untouched because it's a long-ass way from Empire and it didn't have really amazing sec in the first place.


It sounds like you just squared the truesec.
ichn
Stoned Clones
#413 - 2012-04-12 14:10:18 UTC
Deathwing Reborn wrote:
The people that lived there however made a system that thrived despite the adversaties and CCP has been trying to push drone regions back down to be the lowest desired region of space by nerf after nerf.


OK yes you're correct, CCP is actively trying to punish anyone with the audacity to try to live in the drone regions. Thanks for opening my eyes.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#414 - 2012-04-12 14:14:04 UTC
Deathwing Reborn wrote:
ichn wrote:
Deathwing Reborn wrote:
Before anyone says "Not all regions are meant to be equal" just shut it becasue if that was the case you wouldn't be removing drone alloys from the game.

Removing drone alloys isn't about balancing certain regions with others, it's about fixing an objectively broken part of the game.


You are half corrrect. The issue still stands that most people did not want to live in drone lands because of the alloys and the time and effort it took to actually make isk. Hence why Drone regions were always deemed the worst place to live in Null. The people that lived there however made a system that thrived despite the adversaties and CCP has been trying to push drone regions back down to be the lowest desired region of space by nerf after nerf. I am confident that we will make drone regions prosper again no matter what CCP does this time around and we will be looking at another round of nerfs in another 6 months instread of fixing all the things they are missing this time around.

I do have to say one thing about bounties though. At least now my sentient will be worth something now. Before 90% of faction spawns were worth between 10k and 60k, now at least they will all be worth millions even if they don't drop any decent salvage.

Do you get a good deal on tinfoil?

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.

gfldex
#415 - 2012-04-12 14:22:28 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
is still noticeably better than the rest of nullsec (on average ~33% lower) so the average bounty income is expected to be higher than elsewhere;


I would like to add that the effect is much bigger then 33%. It's a change of probability to get a better spawn. As a result one can farm up a system for good spawns much quicker. The effect is non-linear.

CCP Greyscale wrote:

Same progression of bounties was because, as above, we're not anticipating the meta1-4 loot making up a huge chunk of the actual profits being generated, and because the sec status in the drone regions is *still* really damn good.


And here you are missing a few points. Any alliance has good reason to hold refinery outposts because ratters refine loot. As such any alliance is able to tax ratters in a similar fashion then miners (at least to some degree). With no loot drops that income is basically gone.

There is further the logistical burden for small corps that can't or don't want to rely on miners just to build some ammo. With the changes as they are on sisi you want to fly laz0r boats or you don't want to fly there at all. And be careful about the income from loot drops. A rorqual filled with loot is carrying about 1.5B in minerals right now. As more the mineral prices raise as higher that gets. Two chars with the right ships can fill that rorqual in about 12h with loot. That's 62M/h/char. I speak from experience here. The meta-0 nerf is heavy. The drone nerf is insane.

You are still at a 10 on the Grey Scale.

/me chuckles

I'm all for big cans of worms as I have to capital to make good profits of them. But I would prefer if you would have plan B on your table and a swift way to deploy it. So how does that plan look like?

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.

Deathwing Reborn
#416 - 2012-04-12 14:29:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Deathwing Reborn
CCP Greyscale wrote:
[quote=Deathwing Reborn]

The decision not to add normal loot was due to a melange of reasons, including: we're phasing out Meta 0 loot anyway, so it wouldn't be a huge amount of extra stuff; we don't have any clear template for what sort of modules drones should drop; drone truesec, even after the change, is still noticeably better than the rest of nullsec (on average ~33% lower) so the average bounty income is expected to be higher than elsewhere; we anticipate that a large proportion of drone ratters won't be bothering to scoop loot anyway as there's no pressing need to dual-box once we remove the alloy drops, and looting is inefficient and somewhat risky; and it'd be a reasonably large chunk of work that given the above considerations we feel would be better spent elsewhere (eg, removing the Meta 0 loot).

The decision not to add additional faction loot beyond the drone parts (which need some love, but which *are* nevertheless present) was mainly just because identifying what they should drop, and potentially adding and balancing new equipment, was too big a task for us to take on right now. This is a long-standing problem with drones that isn't really related to this issue, same with the complexes and profession sites. However, this change does put us in a much better starting-point to address these problems.

The sec status changes aren't a re-randomization, they're a upwards (towards 0) adjustment of each system's sec. The process used to determine the amount each system is adjusted was intended to "smear" the bulk of the sec upwards without compressing the range too much. Systems around -0.5 shifted the most IIRC, and systems at the end moved the least (the -1.0 systems didn't move at all). Also, can't remember if I said already, but Cobalt Edge is untouched because it's a long-ass way from Empire and it didn't have really amazing sec in the first place.

Same progression of bounties was because, as above, we're not anticipating the meta1-4 loot making up a huge chunk of the actual profits being generated, and because the sec status in the drone regions is *still* really damn good.


So I have to write this all again because the forums just failed me again.

First of all Greyscale I would like to thank you for answering my hard questions on behalf of alot of people. I would however like to rebuttle some of your points here.

1. "we anticipate that a large proportion of drone ratters won't be bothering to scoop loot anyway " You do realize that ~70% (im guessing) of people in the drone regions have alt accounts for salvaging because of alloys right? I personally planned on keeping mine to salvage and loot just because that is what I am use to. If you would like for all of us to cancel our second account and leave you with who knows how many less subs, removing loot from drones is probably the fastest way to do it.

2. "so it wouldn't be a huge amount of extra stuff;" It is still "stuff" that you are not giving us the option to. You say that you are bringing Drone regions in line with the other factions in Null yet you are starting us out at a disadvantage. If creating a loot table is too time consuming or difficult then increase our bounites by say ~5%? Then at least we will have the same opprotunity for income as everyone else.

3. "This is a long-standing problem with drones that isn't really related to this issue" You just proved our point and why we are fighting so hard to make sure you do this right now. If it has taken this long and nothing has been done about these obvious flaws then we all know it won't get fixed in the future. That is why you need to take the time now that you are addressing the drone lands in order to fix these issues.

4. "which need some love, but which *are* nevertheless present" This I have two viewpoints on. One, before this patch drone faction spawns "sentiants" were 80% of the time worth 10-60k yes thats thousands not millions. They were worth LESS than a normal drone battleship unless they dropped capacitor consoles. Two, at least now they will have a static isk value set to them that will at least make them worth more than a normal battleship But what about the 100+million mods that other regions get? We still get nothing but parts for drones which we have to make that are worth mabe 1 million a peice.

5."The sec status changes aren't a re-randomization" Thank you so much for clarifing but I just want to clarify a bit more. So for sake of argument lets look at Cobalt edge that didnt change. So if I had a -1 system today after the patch it will remain -1 and in other regions if I had a -1 system it might be a -8 or some other relevant number that was scaled "upwards". This is how I read it but we have all been worrying that our -1 system might become a -0.1 system after the patch and viseversa for a -0.1 becoming a -0.9 or something.

I just want to thank you again Greyscale for finally answering the hard questions even though you still need to look at changing your plans in my and many others opinions. My post was more thought out and better written but the forums ate my post so I had to rewrite so I appologize.
Kalestra Cable
Faust Industries
#417 - 2012-04-12 14:39:30 UTC
Skreegs job tracking down bots should be made easier in this next patch.

I imagine bots wielding lazors will flock to the Drone Region (well more so than normal) no ammo, no looting just raw cash sounds perfect.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#418 - 2012-04-12 15:01:45 UTC
gfldex wrote:

I'm all for big cans of worms as I have to capital to make good profits of them. But I would prefer if you would have plan B on your table and a swift way to deploy it. So how does that plan look like?


One "Plan B" for them would be to "fix" some of the null-sec ores which are still pretty bad, like Spod and Gneiss.

Today's ore prices (+/- 5%)

Veld 178 Scor 156 Pyro 222 Plag 161 Omb 104 Kern 166 Jasp 276 Hemo 320 Hedb 308
Gneiss 181 DarkO 294 Spod 131 Croc 388 Bist 389 Ark 470
Trit 5.92 Pye 6.87 Mex 53.5 Iso 93.36 Nocx 942 Zyd 1869 Mega 3575 Morph 11394

Jasp/Hemo/Hedb are all pretty balanced.

The problem is that Gneiss and Spod trail way far behind DarkO. Most of that is due to the ore size being so large. If Gneiss' ore size was dropped from 5.00 m3/u down to 3.00 m3/u, it would boost Gneiss from 181 to 301. Which would put it right in line with the other low-sec ores. Spod has a similar problem and needs to be changed from 16 m3/u down to 7.5 m3/u, which would boost it from 131 to 279, bringing it right in line with the low-sec ores and the ABCs.

Or they could also consider boosting the yield on T2 strips, making both the T1 & T2 crystals better.

Or improve the barges / exhumers. Such as bringing the Procurer up to the Retty's current production level, as the Procurer is currently a joke of a hull, outmined by moderately skilled mining cruisers. Bring the Retty's production level up to be halfway between the old Retty and the Covetor. Add more low/mid slots and PG to the Covetor & Hulk to make them more powerful to increase m3/hr potential.
gfldex
#419 - 2012-04-12 15:36:40 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
One "Plan B" for them would be to "fix" some of the null-sec ores which are still pretty bad, like Spod and Gneiss.


If you boost Gneiss you boost -0.001 systems. The whole idea of 0.0 is that it's Deep Space. And that means it's far off the road. I would prefer to have ABCD to have more low and med mins over making any 0.0 way better then lowsec. Proper compression seams to be the best way IMHO. There should be something coming from highsec to 0.0 that is not ISK or POS fuel.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.

Caneb
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#420 - 2012-04-12 15:38:41 UTC
Kalestra Cable wrote:

How many of those regions have bounty giving rats that drop no loot??

Most nullsec ratthers don't bother looting anyway. Looting takes time that could be better spent collecting bounties in the next anomaly.