These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

so the hulk WTF CCP?!!?!?

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#641 - 2012-04-12 21:27:41 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:


In a hyper-capitalist environment, such as Eve, invention and market demands would allow a tank heavy non-combat ship to emerge. that can't happen in Eve as we are restricted to whatever CCP creates for us. This "they are civilian ships not warships" argument falls flat.


It was not built for ship to ship combat, that makes it a civilian industrial ship.
Shukuzen Kiraa
F4G Wild Weasel
#642 - 2012-04-12 21:30:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Shukuzen Kiraa
baltec1 wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:


In a hyper-capitalist environment, such as Eve, invention and market demands would allow a tank heavy non-combat ship to emerge. that can't happen in Eve as we are restricted to whatever CCP creates for us. This "they are civilian ships not warships" argument falls flat.


It was not built for ship to ship combat, that makes it a civilian industrial ship.


industrial ships are not ship to ship combat ships but I can tank the hell out of a transport ship, but noooo a ship that mines in hostile space environments does not qualify for a ship with a need to defend itself lol.

edit: I said ship far to many times in that sentence lol :D
Adunh Slavy
#643 - 2012-04-12 21:30:57 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:


In a hyper-capitalist environment, such as Eve, invention and market demands would allow a tank heavy non-combat ship to emerge. that can't happen in Eve as we are restricted to whatever CCP creates for us. This "they are civilian ships not warships" argument falls flat.


It was not built for ship to ship combat, that makes it a civilian industrial ship.



And near god like beings with billions in the bank would not create enough market demand for some designer to profit from that demand?

The real world anaolgies fail.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#644 - 2012-04-12 21:32:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Adunh Slavy wrote:
In a hyper-capitalist environment, such as Eve, invention and market demands would allow a tank heavy non-combat ship to emerge.
…if there was a need for them. The fact that people don't even tank their ships and instead go full tilt on the yield and cargo capacity shows that the demand isn't really there.

Sure, we're somewhat restricted to what ships CCP gives us, but we're quite free in how we choose to adapt them to the environment. So far, that adaptation has gone away from the heavy tanks. Once we move through that player-made “adaptation buffer” back towards tanks, and when it starts to strain what we can do with those ships (to the point where people begin to abandon them in favour of tankier ships), then maybe it would be time to have a look at the Hulk. We're pretty much as far away from that point as possible right now though.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#645 - 2012-04-12 21:34:41 UTC
Shukuzen Kiraa wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:


In a hyper-capitalist environment, such as Eve, invention and market demands would allow a tank heavy non-combat ship to emerge. that can't happen in Eve as we are restricted to whatever CCP creates for us. This "they are civilian ships not warships" argument falls flat.


It was not built for ship to ship combat, that makes it a civilian industrial ship.


industrial ships are not ship to ship combat ships but I can tank the hell out of a transport ship, but noooo a ship that mines in hostile space environments does not qualify for a ship with a need to defend itself lol.

edit: I said ship far to many times in that sentence lol :D


A transport ship is designed for deep space convoy missions where you need a hefty tank. Back in the Days when you had to transport goods via gates and had no jump frieghters or carriers.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#646 - 2012-04-12 21:37:36 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:



And near god like beings with billions in the bank would not create enough market demand for some designer to profit from that demand?

The real world anaolgies fail.


Just as well I wasnt using any real world anaolgies then. If you want a simply massive tank go buy a battleship or better yet get your hands on one of the rare carriers/dreads in highsec and go mine with them.
Adunh Slavy
#647 - 2012-04-12 21:48:00 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

Just as well I wasnt using any real world anaolgies then. If you want a simply massive tank go buy a battleship or better yet get your hands on one of the rare carriers/dreads in highsec and go mine with them.


So you have a different context for "civilian industrial ship"?

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#648 - 2012-04-12 21:50:08 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Just as well I wasnt using any real world anaolgies then. If you want a simply massive tank go buy a battleship or better yet get your hands on one of the rare carriers/dreads in highsec and go mine with them.


So you have a different context for "civilian industrial ship"?


If it does industrial work and doesn't have a military combat use then its a civilian industrial ship. Its not hard...
Ai Shun
#649 - 2012-04-12 21:52:21 UTC
Any of the Caldari corporations, including my own, would be happy to sell you a basic hull platform in a size ranging from Frigate to Battleship that is capable of mining and can survive most hostile encounters. If necessary, we can arrange for a fitting tutorial to ensure you know how to fit the hull properly for defence.

This is certainly an improvement over the capabilities of the ORE platform which is built purely for mining and needs a designated escort or a compromise in terms of mining efficiency over durability.

Reasonable offers can be made to any of the Caldari State corporations; although I would recommend Lai Dai as they have a more focussed mining platform and they specialise in high quality products.
Whitehound
#650 - 2012-04-12 21:52:30 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
There are ships in much greater need of help. Hulks can tank, they can mine and they can do it well. And you also need those level V skills to fly exhumers in the first place so from the moment you can fly a hulk you get that resist bonus. I use every single slot on haulers for tanking too, These things are civilians ships not warships.

Let us not talk about other ships. Mining ships including the Hulk cannot tank well. They align badly and have no speed nor do their drones hold much off. And as I said do you need to use every available slot for your tank just to protect your +300m ISK investment within high-sec.

Is it too unthinkable for you to let players enter low-sec with mining ships that have been designed with proper survivability in mind? You know they can get killed even if they had 100k eHP, right? With the tanks they have now are you not giving anyone a chance here. You are forced to go into 0.5 systems and gank them in order to teach them a lesson and to take their stuff.

Players take frigates into low-sec for PvP and while these are weak ships do they have a chance to escape. The mining ships do not. They were designed by carebears for carebears who think they must be weak and cannot be strong so other carebears can hero protect them. Do we really need this? Shocked

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Doddy
Excidium.
#651 - 2012-04-12 21:52:44 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Zverofaust wrote:
I have recently taken up the olympic flame of ganking Hulks and I must say they are pretty ******* ridiculous. My t2 fit Catalyst rocking overheated neutron smoked a Hulk in a 0.8 system before CONCORD even showed up on grid. And I probably could've done it in a t1 fit. 5 minutes ratting in nullsec and I recovered the ISK and sec loss. I'm all for making Hulks gankable in highsec but I'd like to see doing it require something like a gang of what I was flying, or maybe a high-DPS cruiser (Thorax) or BC hull to do it.


Hulks very rarely are tanked. You will know when you slam into a supertank hulkTwisted


This, good luck killing a tankhulk in a dessie.
Adunh Slavy
#652 - 2012-04-12 21:55:04 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

If it does industrial work and doesn't have a military combat use then its a civilian industrial ship. Its not hard...


Just making sure you state it clearly. Now back to the point, in this "eve culture" of billions in the bank, owned by near god like creatures, what designer would not create a more beefy tanked industrial ship? Threads like this show there is certainly demand, are you going to say that no such ship would ever be designed, built and sold?

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Doddy
Excidium.
#653 - 2012-04-12 21:55:23 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
There are ships in much greater need of help. Hulks can tank, they can mine and they can do it well. And you also need those level V skills to fly exhumers in the first place so from the moment you can fly a hulk you get that resist bonus. I use every single slot on haulers for tanking too, These things are civilians ships not warships.

Let us not talk about other ships. Mining ships including the Hulk cannot tank well. They align badly and have no speed nor do their drones hold much off. And as I said do you need to use every available slot for your tank just to protect your +300m ISK investment within high-sec.

Is it too unthinkable for you to let players enter low-sec with mining ships that have been designed with proper survivability in mind? You know they can get killed even if they had 100k eHP, right? With the tanks they have now are you not giving anyone a chance here. You are forced to go into 0.5 systems and gank them in order to teach them a lesson and to take their stuff.

Players take frigates into low-sec for PvP and while these are weak ships do they have a chance to escape. The mining ships do not. They were designed by carebears for carebears who think they must be weak and cannot be strong so other carebears can hero protect them. Do we really need this? Shocked


I remember when the default mining ship was the dual rep 10 drone domi, that was proper mining.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#654 - 2012-04-12 21:58:59 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
There are ships in much greater need of help. Hulks can tank, they can mine and they can do it well. And you also need those level V skills to fly exhumers in the first place so from the moment you can fly a hulk you get that resist bonus. I use every single slot on haulers for tanking too, These things are civilians ships not warships.

Let us not talk about other ships. Mining ships including the Hulk cannot tank well. They align badly and have no speed nor do their drones hold much off. And as I said do you need to use every available slot for your tank just to protect your +300m ISK investment within high-sec.

Is it too unthinkable for you to let players enter low-sec with mining ships that have been designed with proper survivability in mind? You know they can get killed even if they had 100k eHP, right? With the tanks they have now are you not giving anyone a chance here. You are forced to go into 0.5 systems and gank them in order to teach them a lesson and to take their stuff.

Players take frigates into low-sec for PvP and while these are weak ships do they have a chance to escape. The mining ships do not. They were designed by carebears for carebears who think they must be weak and cannot be strong so other carebears can hero protect them. Do we really need this? Shocked


The problem with your argument is that they CAN get a hefty tank on them and they have been in low sec and 0.0 for years.
Ai Shun
#655 - 2012-04-12 21:59:50 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Just making sure you state it clearly. Now back to the point, in this "eve culture" of billions in the bank, owned by near god like creatures, what designer would not create a more beefy tanked industrial ship? Threads like this show there is certainly demand, are you going to say that no such ship would ever be designed, built and sold?


Why then don't we already have a ship that is godlike in combat, can mine, run exploration sites, open jump bridges, run links, etc.?

Because we work off what the hulls can provide. Same as all the other corporations.

The Mining barges are optimised for mining. Similar to having a supply vehicle in the real world. Yes, you can probably armour and arm a supply vehicle until it equates to a tank but you have no real cargo space then, do you? So what is the answer? An escort. Or, you use a medium armour vehicle with lower cargo capacity and accept the trade-off.

As I said earlier, many Caldari State corporations would happily sell you a hull capable of surviving and mining. But they will not be as focussed as an ORE mining barge.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#656 - 2012-04-12 22:00:52 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

If it does industrial work and doesn't have a military combat use then its a civilian industrial ship. Its not hard...


Just making sure you state it clearly. Now back to the point, in this "eve culture" of billions in the bank, owned by near god like creatures, what designer would not create a more beefy tanked industrial ship? Threads like this show there is certainly demand, are you going to say that no such ship would ever be designed, built and sold?


Im saying this is a game and in this game the ship is fully able to do its job and that the only problem is the people who fly the ship.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#657 - 2012-04-12 22:00:52 UTC
ok so this thread went from 38 pages down to 33 so we know ccp is reading/removing troll posts... it will be interesting what the resutls of this debate will yeild in the eyes of ccp... or better yet...

getting ccp yitersomething or other to comment would be awesome...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Whitehound
#658 - 2012-04-12 22:03:02 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
The problem with your argument is that they CAN get a hefty tank on them and they have been in low sec and 0.0 for years.

They are however only as popular as straws are to a drowning man.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#659 - 2012-04-12 22:05:00 UTC
Whitehound wrote:

They are however only as popular as straws are to a drowning man.


Then we must have a lot of drowning men.
Adunh Slavy
#660 - 2012-04-12 22:07:09 UTC
Ai Shun wrote:

Why then don't we already have a ship that is godlike in combat, can mine, run exploration sites, open jump bridges, run links, etc.?


Because it all comes back to "balance", doesn't it? So where's the balance point? Threads like these show there is some difference of oppinion. Gankbears blame the victim, many others blame game mechanics or the ship it self.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt