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New dev blog: Rebalancing EVE, one ship at a time

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kyrieee
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#301 - 2012-03-06 19:31:33 UTC
BS IV for capitals is the dumbest thing out of CCP this year.
We don't need people rushing into them, and who the hell trains BS V for T2 BSes?
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#302 - 2012-03-06 19:31:33 UTC
Erim Solfara wrote:


You're reading more into that than you need to, the latter image says nothing about skill requirements. It's alluding to a thematic structure for ships, nothing more, nothing less.

Someone who flies destroyers and interceptors might logically want to fly an interdictor, that is all.



These images match the CURRENT design. They aren't the "NEW DESIGN".

Use your eyeballs and you'll see that.

http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Skilltreebefore_1920.jpg

http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Amarrshiptree2_1920.jpg


These two images match exactly. The "BEFORE" and "Amarr Ship Tree" are exactly the same layouts, not matching the new format proposed @

http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Skilltreeafter_1920.jpg


Hence, asking for them to correct or clarify what they're trying to demonstrate.

Where I am.
Khanid Voltar
#303 - 2012-03-06 19:32:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanid Voltar
SamGromoff wrote:
Kozmic wrote:
For those of us with all racial sub-caps, that is a lot of re-training. SP reimbursment should take that into account - if I had BC V and have race X BS V, then I should get race X BC V.

Edit: also, :ccp:


This or some version of this {BC V + Cruiser V} should be 100% the way to go.

However, I understand that CCP may balk at giving everyone an effective 8 million free SP (i.e. I train BC V and the effective Cruiser V now -> I get all four racial skills down the road). So what I suggest is a further rebalancing of the rank of the effective ship skills.

Currently, BCs are a Rank 6 skill (1.56m SP) and cruisers are Rank 5 (1.28m). To fly all cruisers and BCs perfectly thus costs 6.68m SP. But what if we lower the requirements?

Cruisers = Rank 3 (768k SP)
Racial BCs = Rank 4 (1024k SP)

To fly everything perfectly would now take just over 7m SP, meaning the difference is just over a week of training. Of course, CCP could always credit us that little bit extra if they like Bear

Under this system, the change would take place as follows:

1)Refund everyone the difference for every cruiser skill. Your old Amarr Cruiser V skill would change to Rank 3 and you'd get 512k free SP in the bargain;

2)Delete the old BC skill; your BC V is worth 1.56m free SP;

3)Implement the new racial BC skills at 1024k each.

Example: I currently have Amarr Cruiser V, Caldari Cruiser V and BC IV. The change gives me 1m free SP from the lowered rank of the cruisers + 271k SP from the deleted BC skill. I could then spend 1.024m SP on a single Racial BC V and have 271k left over, spend 450k SP on two BC IVs and have about 800k left over, or go do something else - it's my call.

Most people would be slightly better off than they are now while heavy crosstrainers would be slightly worse off, but no one would be badly nerfed like many cruiser specialists would be under the current proposal.

Destroyer specialists are a little tougher because frigates are Rank 1 and can't be lowered further, but not hugely so. If CCP refunds the destroyer skill at rank 2, then makes the new racial destroyer skill rank 1, 4 race crosstrainers would be out 3 weeks of training time, which isn't horrific. Ideally, CCP would refund the existing destroyer skill as if it were rank 3, saving us a bit of pain, but I'd be willing to live without that.

--

Under this plan, the most free SP anyone could get is just over 4 million. These players would then have to retrain about 8m skillpoints' worth of ships - again, bad but not horrific. Anyone that specialized in 1 or 2 races, though, would actually be better off.

The price would be lowering the time it takes to fly a t1 cruiser. I submit that this is not a huge loss for Eve Online.

please upvote if you like this, tia


A model along the lines of this would be the most optimal solution in my opinion.

When I first read the blog I was like 'that sucks now i need to completely adjust my skill tree mere months after i started to cross train... but what this change would bring is awesome'

Then I read Soundwave's comment that noone would be worse off, and read Liang's suggestion and thought 'wow i could get x amount of fee sp... but so would everyone else, and what about the poor saps that start after and realise everyone who started before them got it for free'

Then I read this chaps post and finally saw a way this could work and keep everyone happy - without giving everyone loads of free sp (which frankly isn't a good idea).
Chokichi Ozuwara
Perkone
Caldari State
#304 - 2012-03-06 19:32:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Chokichi Ozuwara
I can see the upside for this but I have a hard time believing that it is going to translate into more players (which is fun for everyone), more money for CCP etc.

Of all of the low hanging fruit to pick, this one doesn't seem particularly useful.

Tears will be shed and pants will need to be changed all round.
Ntrails
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
#305 - 2012-03-06 19:32:33 UTC
can i have my battleship 5's SP back. Yes it was trained purely to get into caps.

Oh, and my t2 medium projectile guns, as i will lose the hurricane for the drake

in fact. Just reset my SP and leave me with all the skills injected. Many thanks.
Murashu
Dead and Delirious
Brotherhood of Spacers
#306 - 2012-03-06 19:32:47 UTC
I'm all for some long overdue ship rebalancing, I just think it is unfortunate that we have to deal with more skill point changes. When CCP changed stealthbombers from cruise missiles to torpedos, they gave us the middle finger and refused to give anyone a skillpoint refund.

I hope we can take it as a good sign that CCP is atleast discussing skillpoint refunds since this will affect so many more people than the bomber nerf.

Since the ship tiers are going away, I assume this also means missile users will never get a BC comparable to the new Tiers 3s that gun users got? Sad
My Neutral Toon
Doomheim
#307 - 2012-03-06 19:32:48 UTC
So. According to the new skill tree, I can skip interceptors and dictors and jump straight to heavy dictor?

http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Amarrshiptree2_1920.jpg

how does that make sense?


Being able to fly a heavy dictor without ever flying a smaller tackle ships?


Its not all about Skill Book progression, but CCP should be taking PLAYER SKILL PROGRESSION into account here too...

...Can't. Tell. If ...Troll? Or Serious....

Butt Hurt about Harrasment? Read first GM post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=88362&find=unread
WolfeReign
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#308 - 2012-03-06 19:33:03 UTC
Grideris wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
The skill requirement changes for destroyers and battlecruisers is very tricky to tackle indeed. We fully acknowledge having to re-train for ships you can already fly is not appealing at all.

As said in the blog, nothing is set in stone yet, we are considering various reimbursement options as this is still quite a high level change.



Is it possible to instead of refunding the SP, just give the skills instead? Because if you can do so, here is what I would do:


  • If a player has Racial Frigate III and Destroyers X - give player Recial Destroyer X for every race they have Racial Frigate III in
  • Ditto for Battlecruisers


This would really only work if you could actually give us the skills directly. Refunding would result in players having more skill points than they originally spent training the skill to spend on other things. Restricting it to the Battlecruiser and Destroyer skills would mean that they keep the level they were at across all races, but aren't able to spend all of the extra skill points elsewhere.

is support of this


+1 great dev blog and all the changes look great
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#309 - 2012-03-06 19:33:25 UTC
Hitokiri Battoesai wrote:
Wow You did not understand his statement at all. I have a cap pilot also, and there is no way I would have trained BS 5 on 2 races if I did not have to.

Ok, that makes sense. But at the time you DID NEED to train it to lvl5, so why do you think you deserve a refund of any kind?

Nothing has been taken from you, CCP didnt tell you to train exclusively for capital ships did they?

tl:dr HTFU

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#310 - 2012-03-06 19:33:27 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
No one is saying you have to retrain them. Our principle for the reimbursement here will be "if you could fly it yesterday, you can still fly it today". Ytterbium will post the further details of this once it's written up.


Being able to fly it prior to the patch, and being able to fly it after the patch, is one thing.

What people are concerned about is being able to fly things just as effectively after the patch as they could have before. In the case of command ships and interdictors, this is affected by the base Battlecruisers and Destroyers skill levels.

If the minimum requirement is changed to 4, and that's all that's given to us, we effectively regress in our training time. I trained Battlecruisers and Destroyers 5 specifically for the extra benefit of the skill being at 5, not just the ships it unlocked. If the switch over from generic to racial skills for those involves me only getting racial Battlecruisers/Destroyers 4, I've just lost a whole lot of 5% bonuses I have to train for a second time, across both T1 and T2 ships.

If CCP is simply going to give us all the racial skills at the levels we've trained the generic one to, fine - there's nothing to worry about. But until we get a clear answer on that, people are going to continue worrying and fearmongering.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque
profundus fossura
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#311 - 2012-03-06 19:33:50 UTC
This sounds interesting but a lot of people are concerned about possibility of needing retraining

If you are going serious about doing this I would strongly suggest starting with the mining/orefaction ship line as it is already pretty linear and also a limited range o

would suggest combining ore industrial with mining barges and also streamlining the progression from orca to rorqual, and removing and reimbursing the separate ore industrial and industrial command/capital industrial ships skills which each give only a single ship - noctis and orca

If players can see it going right with a single line of ships it is likely to do more to instill confidence than any number of dev blogs etc and will give you an opportunity to fine tune reimbursement plans and balancin

also if you get it wrong the sight of 5000 hulks sieging statues in jita would be priceles

I do have concerns about how much of a barrier this will be to cross training for new player

Introducing an ore faction hauler and scan ship maybe with a gravimetric boost would also be nice - and maybe a dedicated gas miner.
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#312 - 2012-03-06 19:34:19 UTC
I like the general thinking behind this but I have some minor comments ...

CCP Soundwave wrote:

We'll find a suitable reimbursement that makes everyone happy.


Good luck with that ;)

CCP Soundwave wrote:

I too, support Soundwaves ideas.


Warning: hyperextending your arm to pat yourself on the back might lead to medical conditions.

CCP Soundwave wrote:


Heaven forbid a game company talk about what they want to do with their game in the future.


Oh, the horror, rabid gamers might revolt on forums, shoot in-game monuments or send flowers to devs (sorry about that one).

At least we cut CCP Hilmar some slack when he acknowledged being wrong.

He didn't end up in court ... Washington Post

CCP Guard wrote:
Palovana wrote:
Those are some HUGE-ASS images, and trust me, I know huge ass.


The image size issue has been resolved. Sorry about that!

WTF? a Gamer complaining about a huge ass?
Infidel!


CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.
Ntrails
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
#313 - 2012-03-06 19:34:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Ntrails
My Neutral Toon wrote:
So. According to the new skill tree, I can skip interceptors and dictors and jump straight to heavy dictor?

http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Amarrshiptree2_1920.jpg

how does that make sense?


Being able to fly a heavy dictor without ever flying a smaller tackle ships?


Its not all about Skill Book progression, but CCP should be taking PLAYER SKILL PROGRESSION into account here too...




Hictors fly nothing like any of the small tacklers you mentioned, you are ********
Lt Angus
Goat Herders
#314 - 2012-03-06 19:34:25 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:
Erim Solfara wrote:


You're reading more into that than you need to, the latter image says nothing about skill requirements. It's alluding to a thematic structure for ships, nothing more, nothing less.

Someone who flies destroyers and interceptors might logically want to fly an interdictor, that is all.



These images match the CURRENT design. They aren't the "NEW DESIGN".

Use your eyeballs and you'll see that.

http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Skilltreebefore_1920.jpg

http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Amarrshiptree2_1920.jpg


These two images match exactly. The "BEFORE" and "Amarr Ship Tree" are exactly the same layouts, not matching the new format proposed @

http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Skilltreeafter_1920.jpg


Hence, asking for them to correct or clarify what they're trying to demonstrate.


my god is reading so hard, please try one more time for us
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#315 - 2012-03-06 19:34:26 UTC
Three types of Support ships

Logistics - Repairs damage

Fire Control - Provides better solutions to other freindly targets.

Electronic Warfare - Denies hostile targets solutions to friendly targets.

All of them should have a dull bite. The logistics should be the toughest of the three to crack.
Ewar ship should probably feature the best biting out fo the three but thinnest skin.
FC somewhere in between the two.

I also always felt that teir 2 bcs as they are now should all be attack boats not link ships.

Next question when you guys go in and redo the ships in stats are you going to nail thier descriptsion to be uniform as well?

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Drew Solaert
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#316 - 2012-03-06 19:34:36 UTC
Heimdallofasgard wrote:
This thread needs:

Less discussion about skill Queues

More discussion about Ship reclassification.


Not empty quotin'

I lied :o
Heimdallofasgard
Ministry of Furious Retribution
Fraternity.
#317 - 2012-03-06 19:35:42 UTC
Only thing I'll say about skill queues: Keep Racial BS 5 as pre-requisite for each Racial carrier, rest is fine :)

These changes will enable better classification of ships, and open doors to new mind sets when thinking up new fleet compositions, this is ship rebalancing on a really hefty scale which is great.

There are FAR TOO MANY under utilised ships at the moment, and if they all end up having a specific role instead of some being laughed at (like the celestis/deimos/ferox/helios) then I'm all for it. It will make iteration of space ship based features easier, which means more content, in lower lead times, so your monthly subs go to good use.
Grideris
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#318 - 2012-03-06 19:35:46 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:
Erim Solfara wrote:


You're reading more into that than you need to, the latter image says nothing about skill requirements. It's alluding to a thematic structure for ships, nothing more, nothing less.

Someone who flies destroyers and interceptors might logically want to fly an interdictor, that is all.



These images match the CURRENT design. They aren't the "NEW DESIGN".

Use your eyeballs and you'll see that.

http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Skilltreebefore_1920.jpg

http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Amarrshiptree2_1920.jpg


These two images match exactly. The "BEFORE" and "Amarr Ship Tree" are exactly the same layouts, not matching the new format proposed @

http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Skilltreeafter_1920.jpg


Hence, asking for them to correct or clarify what they're trying to demonstrate.


If you actually read through the dev blog, they are in the part where they describe the current state of ships. It's under the heading "Stating the not so obvious" and the line directly after that reads : "To understand what ships lines are all about, let’s recap the four theoretical factors that sort ships out:"

So those four trees are the current states.

http://www.dust514.org - the unofficial forum for everything DUST 514 http://www.dust514base.com -** the** blog site with everything else DUST 514 you need
Drakthon
#319 - 2012-03-06 19:36:01 UTC
It's always nice to be on an epic thread, so I'm going to throw my two cents here for the shiz:

I can fly 2 racial command ships, and I think see what you're trying to do here. However, it's sort of confusing, so the only thing I request (and this may already have been stated) is that I can fly those same two racial command ships when this tornado is over.

Also, for the love of the Amarrian God don't reduce BS V to IV for Caps. They're meant to be flown with those that have had enough time in game to know what they are...BS IV is nothing with implants. I just can't get on board with this.
Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#320 - 2012-03-06 19:36:10 UTC
My Neutral Toon wrote:
Its not all about Skill Book progression, but CCP should be taking PLAYER SKILL PROGRESSION into account here too...

True for people's first char. When you're on your second or third alt it might get a wee bit tedious.