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New dev blog: Rebalancing EVE, one ship at a time

First post First post
Author
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#341 - 2012-03-06 19:43:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Floydy
Skipped over the last few pages as it just seemed to be people raging about having to spend the next 4 months retraining things having not read the devblog properly!

It will be interesting to see how it plays out. As it stands I've got Cruiser5 in all but caldari (which is at 4) - so I can currently fly all battlecruisers. I can fly all field command ships except for the Nighthawk.
Currently if I want the Nighthawk I'd just need to train cruiser 5.
Providing after the changes, once again the only thing I need is Caldari Cruiser 5 I'm happy. I don't care what the skills are called providing I can fly everything I can now at the same level - judging from the blog this is what will happen - so I'm happy.

Good job CCP, the change to make things like BC required for BS and so on is a good one. Will stop people jumping up into bigger ships so quick on the whole - although I can't decide whether that's a good or bad thing for Capitals.

Regarding removing tiers to make certain ships more useful - awesome!


Edit:

Please for the love of god make it so we don't have to re-buy ANY skill books for this. That'll really mess up those in wormholes.
Rixiu
PonyTek
#342 - 2012-03-06 19:43:13 UTC
Great ideas. Even if retraining is less than desirable the end result makes it worth it.

Removal of tiers!
DaDutchDude
Some Random Corporation
#343 - 2012-03-06 19:43:53 UTC
HOLY *censored* BATMAN! Quick, to the Wall of Text response mobile

Skill progression changes
I think there are two mayor sides to this
- For those new to the game / training new characters: excellent news! I think this makes a lot more sense
- For those who have many characters / very deeply trained characters: oh noes, this is going to be FUBAR

Since the majority of the current customers are veterans, it's good to take their worries seriously. For example, I just finished training basically all (combat) subcaps on my main to V, and just respecced Int / Mem to finish training those skills to V. The prospect of possibly having to go back to training Perc / Will skills and figuring out how to best use refunded skill points to get back most of my skills in one go makes my head hurt a bit. Without specifics, it is hard to tell how bad the head ache will be though

That being said, I think in general, the reason for change is clear and good, so as long as player concerns for these changes are addressed, I'm quite happy with them

Ship lines
This idea is really exciting. I'd consider renaming some of your choices though, because the meaning of the names is not very self-evident, at least not to me. As an idea, consider to the following
Combat
- Brawler: close range combat, good DPS + tank, low agility / rang
- Skirmisher: mobility based combat, good DPS + agility, medium range / tan
- Sniper: long range combat, good DPS + range, low agility / tan
- (idea) Tank: Ship class with a local repair specialization, medium DPS and range, low agility. great self repair. These would be the race ship for solo PVE or PVP
Support (I would split these up from the start, because you probably want to have attribute range control a bit better per ship type then just as a group, and also because the group lends itself to extension for new classes
- EWAR: EWAR bonus, low DPS, medium range / tank / agilit
- Logistics: Logistics bonus, low DPS, medium range / tank / agilit
- (idea) Exploration ship class: I would love to see exploration become a lot more prevalent, and adding specific exploration ships would be awesome.

You can flesh out the specifics a bit more by also setting targets for attributes such as lock speed, ECM strength, etc. On top of that, you can make the races a bit more defined by setting different targets for these attributes per race. I can totally see this giving new ways to specialize, new strategies, etc. I'm bubbling with ideas.

The thing where it gets tricky is when you talk about specific skills to specialize. I would really like to see some examples of what you are thinking about. how does that relate for example to current support skills, such as the existing ewar / gunnery / missile / shield tank / armor tank skills? Also, how powerful will they be? If they become a "must have" for some ship classes, you really will have to address that as part of the skill progression changes as well, since it means it might be much better to have less races but more specialization skills instead of cross training. Also, this could easily become either very overpowered or useless

A second major concern is how this relates to T2, and the T1 vs T2 balance. Currently, T2 usually means more specialization then T1. However, if T1 ships get more specialized, they risk making T2 ships almost redundant. That is already the case with some T2 ships, most specifically the HACs and Field Command Ships. T1 DPS ships, especially battlecruisers, already do the job so well and are so much less expensive that the T2 version is a lot less useful to most. This is much more the case when it comes to larger fleet fights, which unfortunately dominate a lot of the PVP. So I would like to see more specific ideas on that as well

A third concern will be the way you implement these changes. I personally think you should start with all frigates and work youe way up size wise from there, instead of doing it by race or as a big bang. I think knowing the capabilities of the smallest entity will help scale the next level properly, and the next level from there on. Personally I'd love to see the gap in tracking / sig / speed to become a bit larger to make classes more distinct and have one class need other classes or the proper support at all times.

Also when you make these changes, initial imbalance will be unavoidable. Because of that, I would suggest setting a lot of time apart in next releases for rebalancing, and also some possibilities for players to get skill points refunded in case changes are radical. Building trust with the community that this isn't a one time deal and their concerns will be taken into account will be very important when making such sweeping changes across something that players have invested years of skill points into

Anyway, those are my thoughts for the moment. All in all, it looks promising but quite tricky to get it right as well, especialy in one go, and therefor slightly panic inducing as well. I hope you pull it off and it becomes a major success.

They say that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I always have the best intentions for others ...

Mukutep
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#344 - 2012-03-06 19:44:04 UTC
Just want to make sure I understand what the reason for having Racial Battleship at V would be if this change happened. Would it only be necessary for black ops and marauders?
Candente
Navy Veteran Club
#345 - 2012-03-06 19:45:18 UTC
Reiteration of the popular opinion here.

Don't make us train stuff after the patch for stuff we could fly before the patch.

That being said, it's ideal not to reimburse SP, but give players actual skills with equivalent level.

Some other ideas with the float chart:


  • Ceptor -> Dictor -> HIC line should retain. Since training for T2 ship skills no longer have the racial T1 ship skills to V, I'd say the requirement to fly a HIC should include Interdictor IV, which has prereq of Interceptor IV. Please get rid of Graviton Physics IV requirement for HIC bubble.
  • Buff Black Ops (for example, ability to warp cloaked) and link it to Covert Ops -> Recon line.
  • Combat Recons should be split from Force Recon since they don't cloak. A suitable line would be Electronic Attack Ship -> Combat Recon, while Covert Ops -> Force Recon
A Lunchbox
Elysian Technologies Enclave
Fraternity.
#346 - 2012-03-06 19:45:32 UTC
After reading all this, I have come to the conclusion:

I must be the only person in eve to train bs 5 for normal bs

Carry on flameage
anzelotte
well of abyss
#347 - 2012-03-06 19:46:30 UTC
oh.. and i just wanted to propose complete remove racial specific ships skills..
just frigate, destroyer, cruiser etc skills + one < racial > starship command skill (with 16x traning time) which replace "spaceship command" and "advanced spaceship command".
so to fly condor: you need "frigate level 2" and "caldari spaceship command level 1"
abaddon: "battleship level 3" and "amarr spaceship command level 3"
ragnarok: "titan level 1" and "minmatar spaceship command level 5"
something like that..

Adunh Slavy
#348 - 2012-03-06 19:46:38 UTC
Looks like a good change overall for going forward. Like most, I also express less than joy for having to retrain for that which I have already paid for in terms of subscription time. The rules were X, and get changed, now I have to pay for X again ... not ideal.

Those that come after and have to pay for the new skill trees, it may sound cold but, so what? They are new to the agreement and accept it. Those of us with many of these skills, like myself, who are cross trained on just about every sub-cap in the game to level 5, should not be subjected to having to do it again.

Grandfather us in, doing so will not alter the landscape.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

The Economist
Logically Consistent
#349 - 2012-03-06 19:46:39 UTC
Ntrails wrote:
Has anyone got confirmation of whether they will be properly balancing headlights across the racial offerings? The current imbalance is disgraceful.


Too long have our headlights languished un-loved; enquiring minds must know!!
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#350 - 2012-03-06 19:46:42 UTC
Mukutep wrote:
Just want to make sure I understand what the reason for having Racial Battleship at V would be if this change happened. Would it only be necessary for black ops and marauders?


Well some people do fly Normal and Faction Battleships and quite enjoy having the maximum of their possible bonuses ;)
Heimdallofasgard
Ministry of Furious Retribution
Fraternity.
#351 - 2012-03-06 19:47:02 UTC
Mukutep wrote:
Just want to make sure I understand what the reason for having Racial Battleship at V would be if this change happened. Would it only be necessary for black ops and marauders?


The BS V bonuses to t1 BS's make some entire fits possible. and give a hefty boost to the amount of dps/rep in some cases... BUT!

Keep BS V requirement for all capitals
Reilly Duvolle
Hydra Squadron
#352 - 2012-03-06 19:47:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Reilly Duvolle
CCP has given a rough picture of how they want ship progression to work. They have give NO details of the proposed transition mechanism. Still, in typical EVE community fasion, people are filling in the blanks themselves and are commenting on this basis as if it where the truth, virtually having a heart attack based on nothing but their own imagination.

Let me say that again: You havent been told about how CCP plans to transit from current state to end state. Stop acting like you do.
Rico Minali
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#353 - 2012-03-06 19:47:15 UTC
The idea is fundamentally great, but like many people have pointed out, all of us who have made sure we are crosstrained extensively are going to be mighty pissed...

So, basically what would happen is overnight I would lose the ability to fly 3/4 of the BC and destroyers entirely and have to retrain, which lets face it is complete crap. Being able to jump literally into any T1 or t2 subcap is something I made sure I am capable of.

Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#354 - 2012-03-06 19:47:31 UTC
Mukutep wrote:
Just want to make sure I understand what the reason for having Racial Battleship at V would be if this change happened. Would it only be necessary for black ops and marauders?


Logically yes, outside of the obvious benefits of having BS level 5 to begin with. It is still the most universally used ship in the game.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Silath Slyver Silverpine
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#355 - 2012-03-06 19:47:37 UTC
As far as retraining gripes: deal with it. If thats what needs to be done to implement a vastly cleaner system, then it should be done. Crap happens, and the trouble is more than worth it in the long run.

I'm glad CCP finally realized that there's a lot of hulls that are currently next to useless. I like the idea of giving each ship a place, rather than:
"Do you want more attack or defense? Attack? Cool. Pick that one."
"But what about these other two ships?"
"Oh, those? Nobody uses those. They suck."
"okay.jpg"

It'd also be nice to see mobility play an actual role. As it stands, it's mostly a matter of using modules to enhance mobility. The base ship stats don't make much of a difference. I think increasing the differences in mobility between ships would help (Instead of a 15 m/s increase of one ship over another, make it something like 50 m/s so it's actually a worthwhile consideration when choosing your ship.)
Unfortunately when it comes to fleets that you can just warp anywhere, it's less of an issue. So I kind of doubt this whole 'make mobility more viable' thing is really practicable... I mean, we are flying large warships here; not cockpit fighters. It's just something to think about. When it comes to real life war fleets, for example, essentially every ship is there to support the carrier and protect it from outside threats, so most of the time they're trawling along at the speed of their slowest ship.
Giullare
The Candyman is Back
#356 - 2012-03-06 19:47:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Giullare
This is the dumbest idea second only to when you started to sell pants and monocles.
I play since 2007 and crosstrained ALL subcapitals because every " x " months ccp nerf my favorite ship.
Now they still find out a way to f.u.c.k up my ship hangar.
I don't care if noobs can fly a carrier with bs 4, when someone conquer a right you can't just take that right away.
Many people crosstrained different races and we deserve to fly what we skilled ( and payed with subscription) in several years.
So change your mind because a shitstorm will hit this forum.
Myz Toyou
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#357 - 2012-03-06 19:48:18 UTC
After getting hope after last patch in the new born "old" CCP it seems that they lost either the key to the meds they took the last month or just thinking "f... that BS community shizzle" we now back to our WoW in space plans were everyone should be lvl 80 space paladin in 50 days.

Shame on you CCP
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#358 - 2012-03-06 19:48:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
Grideris wrote:


If you actually read through the dev blog, they are in the part where they describe the current state of ships. It's under the heading "Stating the not so obvious" and the line directly after that reads : "To understand what ships lines are all about, let’s recap the four theoretical factors that sort ships out:"

So those four trees are the current states.


Right.

A whole lot of images to show what is pretty obvious already to anyone who plays the game.

Quote:
Stating the not so obvious

To understand what ships lines are all about, let’s recap the four theoretical factors that sort ships out:

Size

Tech

Tiers

Combining all these elements, we arrive at the following ship trees:


Reading that states at no point that these are showing the "current state of things". Hence, it's pretty unclear if you actually read the material. At no point does it say, "These images represent currently sorted ships out before the changes" The mention of removing tiers is done after the images, so there's no reason to presume that those images have anything to do with the old system, since we're trying to talk about the new system. Until that point you really are left thinking the images represent the new system. All they need to do is state a clarification that the images are as things currently are.

Where I am.

Tekota
The Freighter Factory
#359 - 2012-03-06 19:49:05 UTC
Jump Freighters

Just to clarify - are we talking about requiring racial freighter to V for jump freighters, or racial industrial to IV for regular freighters and racial industrial to V for jump freighters (in addition to the regular jumpy nav skills)? With racial freighter skills at 10x training time (compared to the 8x for racial battleship) it would make for one very long train to get into JFs.
bassie12bf1
Militaris Industries
Northern Coalition.
#360 - 2012-03-06 19:49:46 UTC
Would this make the t1 mining cruisers and frigates useful for pvp then?