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can we please address the issue!?
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Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2012-01-22 15:31:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Tanya Powers wrote:
Aamrr wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
lol, i like how you can warp back to station, fit up a cap booster and go out and fight a neuting ship, but you can't dock up and fit an eccm to fight an ecm boat. ec-drones are THAT powerful!


A cap booster and a nos both have utility aside from merely countering neuts. ECCM doesn't, Furthermore, ECM prevents far more than neuts ever thought of.

-Liang


There's also a very considerable difference in the range of that ewar. A medium neut functions at approximately web range. A heavy neut barely reaches out to point range. A Falcon, on the other hand, can jam you out to 66+54km. And that's the short-range version. A blackbird will do it (less effectively but much more cheaply) from 103+77km. That is frankly absurd.

And of course, even ECM drones will function out to your drone control range.


Then I look at my Lachesis Arazu and I try hard to find why the hell should I fit 3 mids with crap damps to reduce that battleship targeting range from 80km to 15 when all i have to do is put 5 light ECM drones on it, fit over 55K EHP shield and disrupt up to 100km or scram up to 40 (with max fleet bonus/implants/boosts/rigs/DED mods)

The answer sticks right with gallente at his current state: sneak/backstab
You pick your main with that Arazu/Lachesis and your alt in a bomber or something fast with good dps that can cloak (what about a Loki? -hell another matar) -roam low sec and make plenty of kills.

Now, why the heck should any one bring Arazus and Lachesis in fleets with damps??? -because he's drunk? -good excuse but...

@Onictus

Depends on where you have your fights. If you're talking about high sec grieffing or low sec this may happen since there's not really roam/gang doctrines, in small gangs you can use several types/races of ships witch is very good but in everything starting to look like a fleet it's really simple.
Because logistics, because reduce number of tasks to center on a single one: efficiency
So you bring lots of the same ship, the best for that job and you put the rest of your fleet from that.

So you don't have that much of a choice if you fight BS goons, why would you fit Caldary Jamers when you know they use Maelstroms/Canes/Scimis?? -same if you fight vs drakes, why the heck would you fit multi or matar jammers?
So yes you can perma jam over 5 ships with a single Falcon.

Hell even with my Rook on SISI I can perma Jam at least 3 ships (3 racials+2 multi on my rook witch is far from being the best and all named mods), but I've never tested live since my alt doesn't pvp on TQ, only SISI.



I roamed low-sec for the first year I played, while I didn't have the skills for a rook/falcon I'm well aware of their capabilities, while the rook may jam off three ships, how long is your cap going to last? 45 seconds overheating to get the off racials to work?

In null its a moot point, because all of the ECM you see are scorpions from 200km out, and you don't have to worry about them unless you are logi. In low, if you are flying one race's ships and run across a falcon that has 5 racial jammers on...well congrats, you got counter fitted, it happens.


Not to mention that Lachesis is VERY good at countering recons. Only takes one damp to shut off that rook at 70km, and they don't want to be a lot closer, same with logi, two damps forces a scimi into easy kill range, and none of these ships have a huge tank.

So its either run or die at that point.
Suleiman Shouaa
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#62 - 2012-01-22 15:35:01 UTC
If you could actually lock the blasted thing(s) that had you jammed, there would be far less QQ.

Reducing the jamming time from 20 seconds to 5 seconds (or just making them break lock instead) without changing the module cycle time would be nice also.

Also FoFs are "ok" vs ECM Drones -> HML FoFs require the ECM drones to be MWDing to drop them fast at all.

Funny story regarding the first time I used them - a corpmate sells fully fitted Drakes to the rest of us (w/ missiles, including FOFs) and I took one of them out. Ran into 6-7 Battlecruisers + HACs who I kited. After dropping 2-3 of them, they all swapped to ECM drones (even the Myrmidon grabbed EC-900s) and came back for revenge. After being jammed for 2 minutes solid, I swapped to FOFs and tried to use them but didn't have the skill trained even to I (but had it injected). I ended up kiting them until the skill finished training (~20 minutes iirc) and then started using them. Sad story is that I ran out of missiles (1000 FOFs) before they ran out of ECM drones so I had to leave anyway.
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#63 - 2012-01-22 15:52:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
Naomi Knight wrote:
No it only prooves that 3 ships is better than 1.

Why dont ppl use neuts cause winmatar doesnt need cap.
Why no damp , cause winmatar too fast to close the range, and locks too quickly too.
Why no tracking disruptors, cause winmatar can negate tracking problems if flown right. And drakes ofc.


--> remove winmatar extra speed
--> projectiles need to use cap


If 3 ships were better than one... Then how come attacking something with 3 non-ecm recons still does less to hamper it than a single falcon? Lol

Also, how come you don't say that Caldari need to "cap use?" Roll

Funny how you never responded to my Raven comparison, either, in which the exact same thing happens to a ship of another race.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#64 - 2012-01-22 15:58:53 UTC
Fit ECCM.
DHB WildCat
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
#65 - 2012-01-22 16:05:44 UTC  |  Edited by: DHB WildCat
Maybe a proposal for ecm change.................

Half the range of all ecm modules except the burst.

All ecm modules now only brake lock, but hear me out.

1) All ECM mods will still have 20 sec "cool down" period.

2) This make drones far less effective and the defender can instanlty lock the target back up for point and the drones to kill them.

3) Racial jammers on ships such as falcon / scorpion / BB / kitsune ect. Will only work on the race its designed for, but works 100% of the time. If you put a min jammer on a hurricane it will lose lock. If you put the same jammer on a drake it does nothing. Also multispecs will work on any race, however they will be 1/4 the range they are now. meaning If you want to use it you need to be danger close.

4) A skilled player for example in a scorp, can still perma jam a single target by cycling multis or racials if he had a bunch of one type, in staggered increments. Say a hurricane again. a scorp or whatever puts a multi / racial jammer on him. Hurricane now has 4-5 seconds to lock so in 4 seconds the ecm ship puts another jam on him, ect..... ect.... Still perma jamming a ship but instead of 5 ships, now its only one like the other electronic warfare ships.


********Also******** This would make gallente sensor damps more useful as well to prolong lock times. Heck maybe a flacon would even fit half multis / half sensor damps. Or a falcon / arazu would work together.


Now in order to not have multis become the new god weapon on any ship, I propse their base range be 2k. Literally say a drake can use one but you have to be flicking the guy off accross from you close enough that he can see it! Also since ecm based ships would lose strength bonuses due to the module effecting every hit, they would instead gain extreme range bonuses, so that they can be used up to say 25km multis / 50km racials. Again keeping them in range of other electronic warfare ships.


Yes I realize this makes ECCM completely useless, but it is already just remove the chance based crap alltogether, also it would bring sensor boosters back in line and in use due to having to relock things.

What do you think?

Wild
Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
#66 - 2012-01-22 16:30:20 UTC
DHB, aren't you e-famous because you never left home without your trusty falcon alt?

I honest to god still can't believe you can cry about ECM for this long as well. Get over it.
Lili Lu
#67 - 2012-01-22 16:37:44 UTC
Patient 2428190 wrote:
DHB, aren't you e-famous because you never left home without your trusty falcon alt?

I honest to god still can't believe you can cry about ECM for this long as well. Get over it.

If true, then I would think DHB is a quite admirable player. He essentially would be exhorting CCP to take away the very I-win button he himself had been using. Quite admirable indeed.
DHB WildCat
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
#68 - 2012-01-22 16:43:07 UTC
Patient 2428190 wrote:
DHB, aren't you e-famous because you never left home without your trusty falcon alt?

I honest to god still can't believe you can cry about ECM for this long as well. Get over it.



First of all im e-famous? What does that even mean? Anyways.... you sir a few years behind the grade. My alt hasnt been in a falcon for , well several years.

Yes long ago I abused the mechanic like no other, using the ship to escape certain death. Locking down 5-6 targets at once to make a hudini escape 8).

However I found that it really ruined the excitment and for the past few years my alt has been everything but an ECM ship.


Now that that is explained can we get back on topic or does anyone else want to try to derail the thread and personally attack me instead of addressing the issue at hand?
Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
#69 - 2012-01-22 16:54:04 UTC
DHB WildCat wrote:
Patient 2428190 wrote:
DHB, aren't you e-famous because you never left home without your trusty falcon alt?

I honest to god still can't believe you can cry about ECM for this long as well. Get over it.



First of all im e-famous? What does that even mean? Anyways.... you sir a few years behind the grade. My alt hasnt been in a falcon for , well several years.

Yes long ago I abused the mechanic like no other, using the ship to escape certain death. Locking down 5-6 targets at once to make a hudini escape 8).

However I found that it really ruined the excitment and for the past few years my alt has been everything but an ECM ship.


Now that that is explained can we get back on topic or does anyone else want to try to derail the thread and personally attack me instead of addressing the issue at hand?


Please tell me more about your alt not using ECM ships for years
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#70 - 2012-01-22 17:05:45 UTC
The fact that he still uses ECM doesn't have anything to do with whether or not ECM is or isn't OP. If something's OP, you're putting yourself at a disadvantage by not using it. Doesn't change the fact that it's OP and should be changed. He's not a hypocrite; he can call ECM OP while using it.
DHB WildCat
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
#71 - 2012-01-22 17:11:16 UTC  |  Edited by: DHB WildCat
Patient 2428190 wrote:
DHB WildCat wrote:
Patient 2428190 wrote:
DHB, aren't you e-famous because you never left home without your trusty falcon alt?

I honest to god still can't believe you can cry about ECM for this long as well. Get over it.



First of all im e-famous? What does that even mean? Anyways.... you sir a few years behind the grade. My alt hasnt been in a falcon for , well several years.

Yes long ago I abused the mechanic like no other, using the ship to escape certain death. Locking down 5-6 targets at once to make a hudini escape 8).

However I found that it really ruined the excitment and for the past few years my alt has been everything but an ECM ship.


Now that that is explained can we get back on topic or does anyone else want to try to derail the thread and personally attack me instead of addressing the issue at hand?


Please tell me more about your alt not using ECM ships for years



I honestly have no idea where you got that, it wasnt me if that mail is real. Remember I did leave the game for several months. So thats one more thing you probably are misinformed on 8(. Oh well. Like I said if that mail is real..... in high sec?, a domi?
Kingwood
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#72 - 2012-01-22 18:05:26 UTC
Sounds to me like DHB finally did sell his character.
Captain Nares
O3 Corporation
#73 - 2012-01-22 18:47:24 UTC
One smartbomb and one brain for Mr. DHB WildCat, please!
Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
#74 - 2012-01-22 19:19:38 UTC
Kingwood wrote:
Sounds to me like DHB finally did sell his character.


You think the new owner got the package deal, the orange stained ego-maniac and his enabling falcon alt? Why would somebody buy them both?

Its him, down to the same stupid ideas of game balance and the same tired whining.
Nex apparatu5
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#75 - 2012-01-22 19:30:47 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:
Maelstrom 1 is being
-Neuted
-Tracking disrupted
-Dampened
-Long pointed
-Log webbed
-Target painted
by 3 ewar cruisers (Amarr, Gallente, Minmatar). It can still fire its guns on close targets, point things and command its drones, doing minimal damage.

Maelstrom 2 is being
-ECM jammed
by 1 ewar cruiser (Caldari). It can't do a single thing.


ECM has significant issues.


Abaddon 1 is being
-Neuted

Can't shoot, is unable to use prop mods, can't point or web, all non-passive tank mods are useless
Can die

Abaddon 2 is being
-ECM jammed

Can't shoot or point/web
Can tank and move
Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
#76 - 2012-01-22 20:01:31 UTC
DHB WildCat wrote:
Patient 2428190 wrote:
DHB WildCat wrote:
Patient 2428190 wrote:
DHB, aren't you e-famous because you never left home without your trusty falcon alt?

I honest to god still can't believe you can cry about ECM for this long as well. Get over it.



First of all im e-famous? What does that even mean? Anyways.... you sir a few years behind the grade. My alt hasnt been in a falcon for , well several years.

Yes long ago I abused the mechanic like no other, using the ship to escape certain death. Locking down 5-6 targets at once to make a hudini escape 8).

However I found that it really ruined the excitment and for the past few years my alt has been everything but an ECM ship.


Now that that is explained can we get back on topic or does anyone else want to try to derail the thread and personally attack me instead of addressing the issue at hand?


Please tell me more about your alt not using ECM ships for years



I honestly have no idea where you got that, it wasnt me if that mail is real. Remember I did leave the game for several months. So thats one more thing you probably are misinformed on 8(. Oh well. Like I said if that mail is real..... in high sec?, a domi?


Exactly how do you think I'm misinformed?

Please. Tell me more about that "fake" killmail. Tell me why you shift your tone from bragging about your lifelong falcon companion to acting like a clueless nobody in the span of two posts?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#77 - 2012-01-22 20:17:59 UTC
Onictus wrote:
and that is crap, a falcon can't lock down 3 ships permanently without getting raped.


...... yes it can? I've seen it repeatedly. And frankly, if you haven't seen it then you simply do not PVP at all.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2012-01-22 20:51:59 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Onictus wrote:
and that is crap, a falcon can't lock down 3 ships permanently without getting raped.


...... yes it can? I've seen it repeatedly. And frankly, if you haven't seen it then you simply do not PVP at all.

-Liang



Yeah never.
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#79 - 2012-01-22 21:33:34 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
I think its worth mentioning that all other ewar has counters that happen after the fight starts:
- Against ECM? Well, fit ECCM. Or else.


I do think CCP should add another option: Four new skillz, one which boosts each kind of sensor strength, by perhaps 5% per level. I think rank 2 or 3 would be reasonable. That'll give players a little more edge against ECM.
DarkAegix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2012-01-22 22:08:51 UTC  |  Edited by: DarkAegix
Nex apparatu5 wrote:
DarkAegix wrote:
Maelstrom 1 is being
-Neuted
-Tracking disrupted
-Dampened
-Long pointed
-Log webbed
-Target painted
by 3 ewar cruisers (Amarr, Gallente, Minmatar). It can still fire its guns on close targets, point things and command its drones, doing minimal damage.

Maelstrom 2 is being
-ECM jammed
by 1 ewar cruiser (Caldari). It can't do a single thing.


ECM has significant issues.


Abaddon 1 is being
-Neuted

Can't shoot, is unable to use prop mods, can't point or web, all non-passive tank mods are useless
Can die

Abaddon 2 is being
-ECM jammed

Can't shoot or point/web
Can tank and move

But then you realise that the Abaddon has 4 mid slots, and that standard practice is to fit a cap booster, as nearly all Amarr ships with an extra mid available do.
This cap booster helps whether your not you're being neuted, so players do it anyway.
The neuting has been naturally countered. Also, the Abaddon then loads up Scorch and destroys the neuting ship.

Now, if the Abaddon had ECCM, then:
-In a fight with no ECM, it caps out and dies horribly. Curse or no Curse.
-In a fight with ECM, it's jammed 30% of the time

Also consider that neuting a Minmatar or Caldari ship is ineffective. ECM, on the other hand, counters everything.