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can we please address the issue!?

Author
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2012-01-22 08:57:13 UTC
Last night i had a shield naga going into armor with my thorax. He couldnt break my tank. I was going to win. Naga pilot warps in his falcon alt and drake alt/buddy and jams me, saves naga, and pops me before I can relock. Boo hoo for me.

BUT - it proves the point perfectly why ECM is OP:

No one trains Arazu, Rapier, or Pilgrim alts to fly around with them to help in 'solo' fights. They train Falcon alts. That alone proves the point.

The best way to tell if something in a MMO needs re-balancing is to check if everyone starts to use it. ECM (and ecm drones) are OP. The proof is in the pudding.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!

Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#42 - 2012-01-22 09:20:26 UTC
No it only prooves that 3 ships is better than 1.

Why dont ppl use neuts cause winmatar doesnt need cap.
Why no damp , cause winmatar too fast to close the range, and locks too quickly too.
Why no tracking disruptors, cause winmatar can negate tracking problems if flown right. And drakes ofc.


--> remove winmatar extra speed
--> projectiles need to use cap
Onictus
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#43 - 2012-01-22 10:08:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Naomi Knight wrote:
No it only prooves that 3 ships is better than 1.

Why dont ppl use neuts cause winmatar doesnt need cap.
Why no damp , cause winmatar too fast to close the range, and locks too quickly too.
Why no tracking disruptors, cause winmatar can negate tracking problems if flown right. And drakes ofc.


--> remove winmatar extra speed
--> projectiles need to use cap



You never tire of repeating yourself.

Seriously tracking disruptors totally shut down a Hurricane....as do ECM drones.
Kn1v3s 999
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2012-01-22 10:18:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Kn1v3s 999
Once i got permajammed by 5 light ecm drones while i was in a Ishtar with ECCM overheated.

In mass they have no counter.

Smartbombs can work, but you need it large (so BS), or a couple of medium (not for every ship without losing too many guns/lot), and still, you will take some time if they had vespa+decent drone skills. And Btw you need to fit all your gang with them or that will not work, so basically, they are not a solution if not for solo.

ECM is broken
Real Poison
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2012-01-22 10:23:45 UTC
main problem can be easily summarized:

current ECM game mechanic adds nothing of value - just boredom and frustration

give us st.h. fun.
like per ECM strength add ghost targets still leave 1 real target, if you choose the right one you still hit it.
Biced
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#46 - 2012-01-22 11:00:07 UTC
Real Poison wrote:
main problem can be easily summarized:

current ECM game mechanic adds nothing of value - just boredom and frustration

give us st.h. fun.
like per ECM strength add ghost targets still leave 1 real target, if you choose the right one you still hit it.


so everyone shoot the falocn lol.
or make it so you can pick one but the falcon? so falcon is useless in a 2 man gang config.
very bad idea.

bah i hate ecm drones so bad, thank god we dont have t2 ecm drones =p

imo lower ecm drones hp to **** so a flight of lights will pop to 2 small smart bomb activation and a flight of meds will die to 2 med activations. or even less...
that way smart bombs will be a perfect counter to ecm drones.

maybe give eccm a slight buff, increaded duration so you can heat for longer, make it add some scan res or something silly on top of what it does now.
as it stands right now you only need 1 overheated eccm on a bc and its really hard to get perma jammed sure might lose a lock a few times but no perma jams.
Death Toll007
Perkone
Caldari State
#47 - 2012-01-22 11:03:46 UTC
Let me get this straight... You engaged a 3 man gang in low sec in a four man gang. This three man gang used tactics, to prolong the engagement and escalate until it was a 10 v 4 (you) and it's the ECM drones' fault you lost?

OP: Pick one
1. Better intel / scouting
2. ECCM
3. Medium EMP Smartbomb II in util slot on drakes / any ship that can spare
4. Fit your own ECM drones
5. Let them agress to neutralize effects of drones with gate gun fire
6. Use D-Scanner and disengage if fight appears unwinable
7. EM FoF missiles on drake to kill ECM drones (engage closest, usually drones)
8. Logistics fit with ECCM (will suck up ECM drones, and can jump gate when it gets bad)

Recognize the issue was not the ECM drone, but your belief in a 'fair' fight in EvE (Everyone versus Everyone)

-DT
DHB WildCat
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#48 - 2012-01-22 12:41:27 UTC
Death Toll007 wrote:
Let me get this straight... You engaged a 3 man gang in low sec in a four man gang. This three man gang used tactics, to prolong the engagement and escalate until it was a 10 v 4 (you) and it's the ECM drones' fault you lost?

OP: Pick one
1. Better intel / scouting
2. ECCM
3. Medium EMP Smartbomb II in util slot on drakes / any ship that can spare
4. Fit your own ECM drones
5. Let them agress to neutralize effects of drones with gate gun fire
6. Use D-Scanner and disengage if fight appears unwinable
7. EM FoF missiles on drake to kill ECM drones (engage closest, usually drones)
8. Logistics fit with ECCM (will suck up ECM drones, and can jump gate when it gets bad)

Recognize the issue was not the ECM drone, but your belief in a 'fair' fight in EvE (Everyone versus Everyone)

-DT



Are you serious? You didnt read the post did you? lol

Once again, fight was fine til the rest came in. Still okay with getting ganked no problems props to them. What sux is that they all fielded ecm drones and jammed us all permanately.

Why does that suck? Because I couldnt die like a man swinging, but instead had to sit there watching 20 second counter after 20 second counter run by. You are right no, I couldnt kill any of them but at least if I wasnt jammed I could have given a black eye maybe!

My entire point is that ECM has no counter when it hits, and that its completely cowardly / boring. Taking multiple ships down with only one ship.
Onictus
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#49 - 2012-01-22 12:46:39 UTC
DHB WildCat wrote:


Why does that suck? Because I couldnt die like a man swinging, but instead had to sit there watching 20 second counter after 20 second counter run by. You are right no, I couldnt kill any of them but at least if I wasnt jammed I could have given a black eye maybe!

My entire point is that ECM has no counter when it hits, and that its completely cowardly / boring. Taking multiple ships down with only one ship.


ECCM.....

ECM only works in small gangs, and if you fit ECCM or use your drones intelligently, you nca reduce the effect.

.....or just bring a Rook with you
DarkAegix
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#50 - 2012-01-22 13:36:59 UTC  |  Edited by: DarkAegix
A single overheated ECM module fit to a Falcon with one signal distortion amplifier and 2 ECM rigs has a 99.375% chance to jam a Hurricane.
If that Hurricane fits ECCM and overheats it, there is a 44.17% chance to jam the Hurricane.

What we learn here today is that fitting a module which severely gimps your ship and only benefits you if ECM is encountered is a pretty bad idea. ECM is just too broken.

Consider that a Falcon with 5 ECM modules can effectively disable 5 ships.
If the entire opposing fleet fit [typo edited]ECCM[/typo edited], then the Falcon can disable 2 ships at any given time, on average.
Yes, even when up against opponents specifically fit against ECM, the Falcon is able to disable more ships than it is equal to.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2012-01-22 13:52:54 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:


Consider that a Falcon with 5 ECM modules can effectively disable 5 ships. If the entire opposing fleet fit ECM, then the Falcon can disable 2 ships at any given time, on average.
Yes, even when up against opponents specifically fit against ECM, the Falcon is able to disable more ships than it is equal to.

thats why it is balanced , if it couldnt everybody would just use lame dps ships like you noobs do

brain>>>dumbness
Onictus
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#52 - 2012-01-22 13:55:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
DarkAegix wrote:
A single overheated ECM module fit to a Falcon with one signal distortion amplifier and 2 ECM rigs has a 99.375% chance to jam a Hurricane.
If that Hurricane fits ECCM and overheats it, there is a 44.17% chance to jam the Hurricane.

What we learn here today is that fitting a module which severely gimps your ship and only benefits you if ECM is encountered is a pretty bad idea. ECM is just too broken.

Consider that a Falcon with 5 ECM modules can effectively disable 5 ships. If the entire opposing fleet fit ECM, then the Falcon can disable 2 ships at any given time, on average.
Yes, even when up against opponents specifically fit against ECM, the Falcon is able to disable more ships than it is equal to.



One on One, light drones are enough to get the falcon off the the field, and if its out of drone control range just warp.


Death to E-Honor is still death, just leave.


and that is crap, a falcon can't lock down 3 ships permanently without getting raped.
Onictus
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#53 - 2012-01-22 13:56:57 UTC
Onictus wrote:
DarkAegix wrote:
A single overheated ECM module fit to a Falcon with one signal distortion amplifier and 2 ECM rigs has a 99.375% chance to jam a Hurricane.
If that Hurricane fits ECCM and overheats it, there is a 44.17% chance to jam the Hurricane.

What we learn here today is that fitting a module which severely gimps your ship and only benefits you if ECM is encountered is a pretty bad idea. ECM is just too broken.

Consider that a Falcon with 5 ECM modules can effectively disable 5 ships. If the entire opposing fleet fit ECM, then the Falcon can disable 2 ships at any given time, on average.
Yes, even when up against opponents specifically fit against ECM, the Falcon is able to disable more ships than it is equal to.



One on One, light drones are enough to get the falcon off the the field, and if its out of drone control range just warp.


Death to E-Honor is still death, just leave.



I had PL catch me on a gate with a Rapier, Devoter and Falcon, I had EC-300s on the rapier and the devouter and falcon were such crap DPS that I de-agressed and gate crashed with a Vagabound in half shield.

It's not rocket science.
Kingwood
Gone Krabbing
#54 - 2012-01-22 14:02:56 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Onictus wrote:


One on One, light drones are enough to get the falcon off the the field, and if its out of drone control range just warp.


Death to E-Honor is still death, just leave.



I had PL catch me on a gate with a Rapier, Devoter and Falcon, I had EC-300s on the rapier and the devouter and falcon were such crap DPS that I de-agressed and gate crashed with a Vagabound in half shield.

It's not rocket science.


lol
DarkAegix
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#55 - 2012-01-22 14:05:00 UTC
Onictus wrote:


One on One, light drones are enough to get the falcon off the the field, and if its out of drone control range just warp.


Death to E-Honor is still death, just leave.

Did I say it was a 1 vs 1 fight?
Surely you know Falcons aren't for solo. Their role is to disable 5 ships at once in fleet fights, make solo PVP that much harder, overpower small gangs instantly, and make other ewar ships nearly useless in comparison.

Oh, and take your PL story as a nice example. In your Vagabond, you may have been able to take on the Rapier and Devoter simultaneously. But then along came the Falcon, and ruined the solo PVP joy.


And, Naomi, the point is that the Falcon is overpowered. Why bother creating an intelligent strategy with other ewar ships while the Falcon is an IWIN button? It's a balance issue.
Onictus
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#56 - 2012-01-22 14:08:07 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:
Onictus wrote:


One on One, light drones are enough to get the falcon off the the field, and if its out of drone control range just warp.


Death to E-Honor is still death, just leave.

Did I say it was a 1 vs 1 fight?
Surely you know Falcons aren't for solo. Their role is to disable 5 ships at once in fleet fights, make solo PVP that much harder, overpower small gangs instantly, and make other ewar ships nearly useless in comparison.

Oh, and take your PL story as a nice example. In your Vagabond, you may have been able to take on the Rapier and Devoter simultaneously. But then along came the Falcon, and ruined the solo PVP joy.


And, Naomi, the point is that the Falcon is overpowered. Why bother creating an intelligent strategy with other ewar ships while the Falcon is an IWIN button? It's a balance issue.



Faclon can't disable 5 ships at once.....maybe two, and odds are that if it has enough support to stay on the field while jamming FIVE ships, that gang is going to win anyway.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#57 - 2012-01-22 14:35:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Aamrr wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
lol, i like how you can warp back to station, fit up a cap booster and go out and fight a neuting ship, but you can't dock up and fit an eccm to fight an ecm boat. ec-drones are THAT powerful!


A cap booster and a nos both have utility aside from merely countering neuts. ECCM doesn't, Furthermore, ECM prevents far more than neuts ever thought of.

-Liang


There's also a very considerable difference in the range of that ewar. A medium neut functions at approximately web range. A heavy neut barely reaches out to point range. A Falcon, on the other hand, can jam you out to 66+54km. And that's the short-range version. A blackbird will do it (less effectively but much more cheaply) from 103+77km. That is frankly absurd.

And of course, even ECM drones will function out to your drone control range.


Then I look at my Lachesis Arazu and I try hard to find why the hell should I fit 3 mids with crap damps to reduce that battleship targeting range from 80km to 15 when all i have to do is put 5 light ECM drones on it, fit over 55K EHP shield and disrupt up to 100km or scram up to 40 (with max fleet bonus/implants/boosts/rigs/DED mods)

The answer sticks right with gallente at his current state: sneak/backstab
You pick your main with that Arazu/Lachesis and your alt in a bomber or something fast with good dps that can cloak (what about a Loki? -hell another matar) -roam low sec and make plenty of kills.

Now, why the heck should any one bring Arazus and Lachesis in fleets with damps??? -because he's drunk? -good excuse but...

@Onictus

Depends on where you have your fights. If you're talking about high sec grieffing or low sec this may happen since there's not really roam/gang doctrines, in small gangs you can use several types/races of ships witch is very good but in everything starting to look like a fleet it's really simple.
Because logistics, because reduce number of tasks to center on a single one: efficiency
So you bring lots of the same ship, the best for that job and you put the rest of your fleet from that.

So you don't have that much of a choice if you fight BS goons, why would you fit Caldary Jamers when you know they use Maelstroms/Canes/Scimis?? -same if you fight vs drakes, why the heck would you fit multi or matar jammers?
So yes you can perma jam over 5 ships with a single Falcon.

Hell even with my Rook on SISI I can perma Jam at least 3 ships (3 racials+2 multi on my rook witch is far from being the best and all named mods), but I've never tested live since my alt doesn't pvp on TQ, only SISI.
Kn1v3s 999
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2012-01-22 14:51:38 UTC
Well ECM based ships, as someone pointed out, lose all (tank, dps ect) for fit racial jammers, so in some ways i can understand it.

ECM drones are just lame. especially small drones that basically everything with a drone bay can have.

And the example you posted Onictus basically should explain to you why they are overpowered.

And the other example of the Cane having 44% chance to be jammed while basically be fitted to counter ECm should let everyone understand why ecm is broken.

Tou can fit a ship to be basically a counter for ECM (losing tank or utility for that) and still, with your module overheated, you have 50%, HALF chance to be jammed every fuckin cycle.

FIX ECM
Tamiya Sarossa
Resistance is Character Forming
#59 - 2012-01-22 15:02:16 UTC
To be honest, the main problem for me is that many fights come down to whether I can pop the enemies flight of ECM drones before they get off a cycle and allow them to disengage or give them range control and an insurmountable DPS lead when my tackle shuts off if the fight is close. Essentially, the outcome of many fights is determined entirely by the RNG, which is a bit silly.

Every time I manage to slingshot a Cynabal it's a race via the ECM drones to see if it can break tackle and run off before I down the flight. This is even worse because at scram range they can scoop/redeploy and often have two flights of lights. At this point, I expect every Cynabal to get out via ECM drones - the only one I've managed to kill forgot to launch them until the very end of the fight.
Galerak
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#60 - 2012-01-22 15:16:46 UTC
vorneus wrote:
I have two main issues with ECM, and Liang has more or less touched on both of them.

1.) There is no way to completely counter it, only to reduce the probability of it happening. I can name several occasions where I have been jammed by 5 light ECM drones while in a Domi with 2 ECCMs or 1 ECCM which was overheated; on all such occasions I was mad, bro - and why shouldn't I be? Fitting 2 ECCMS is a considerable fitting sacrifice to make and to be jammed in a BS hull by an unbonused set of light drones is a real kick in the teeth.

2.) The effect of being jammed is greater than that of all other types of EWAR. Not only this, but it's by a considerable margin as well. Neuts can be crippling to some ships, sure, but they still don't prevent you from firing cap-independant weapons at your aggressor(s).

Solutions? Not sure, but reduction in the amount of time spent jammed would be a start, even if it's just scaled so that light drones jam for less time, mediums for longer, large drones for longer still and specific ECM boats for the longest.

Or something.

I dunno.

-Ed


I can bet I have far more instances of ECM drones (not to mention active jammer mods) failing to get off a single jam than you have of being jammed while fit w/ ECCM. However, I will agree that there are no guaranteed counters and as a frequent ECM pilot, I would be ok with CCP adjusting the duration of the jam to the module or drone. Even so, I can assure you it would not have changed the course of events in your OP. Also a passive bonus to ECCM/Backup Sensor Arrays that reduces jamming time might be a viable solution.