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can we please address the issue!?

Author
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#81 - 2012-01-23 06:39:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
So, let's run through some common arguments on why ECM isn't overpowered and prove why they're wrong.

"ECM is only good in small gangs, it sucks in large fleet fights."

People who say this have clearly never seen a CFC alphafleet with craptons of scorps. Additionally, even if this was actually true, since when was this a balancing factor for determining the OP-ness of something? For something to be perfectly balanced, it should be reasonably useful for all forms of warfare. Saying that ECM is well balanced because it "only" dominates on the small gang scale is like saying that the pre-nerfed Dramiels weren't overpowered because they "only" dominated other frigates; i.e, stupid.

"ECM is only good because Rooks/Falcons use up all their slots for jammers. If Curses focused solely on ewar and not combat, you would get the same effect."

Really? Let's do some ~EFT Math~.

Let's suppose there's a gang of Harbingers. That's a nice target for a Curse; cap intensive turrets. The very thing a Curse is made for.

Now let's suppose this Curse fits ALL OUT EWAR. 5 medium neuts in its highs, 4 tracking disruptors/cap booster/MWD in the mids, and some **** in the lows which doesn't really matter because we're comparing pure ewar abilities. The Curse loads up optimal range scripts in its TD's and goes to town.

The results:
-A focused medium pulse harby has its range cut down to 10km with scorch from a single TD, so it can still deal good damage to close range targets. Two TD's will bring it to 4km. It also takes 2 neuts to destabilize its cap; so let's say with two neuts and two TD's, a Curse can "shut down" a Harbinger. that means, with 4 TD's and 5 neuts, a Curse can effectively shut down, oh, two Harbies.

Meanwhile, let's assume that a Rook, which, like the Curse, is fit for all out ewar, tries jamming the harbies:
-A single Amarr racial jammer has a 92% chance of jamming a Harb. Even if the Harb gimps itself by dropping the crucial cap booster for an ECCM, it'll still get jammed 50% of the time by a single jammer. Let's be generous and assume the harb does fit eccm, maybe sacrificing a point/web; two ECM will still jam it three quarters of the time. Since the Rook has 6 jammers, let's say that it can "shut" down 2.5-3 Harbies. Even if they fit ECCM.

This isn't even considering the fact that a Rook's definition of "shut down" is far superior to that of a Curse. A Curse will prevent the harb from hitting well; a Rook will prevent the Harb from shooting, pointing, telling drones what to do, NOS/neuting, and webbing. On top of that, the range of a Curse's neuts are 36km, and its TD's are 69km with 35 falloff. A Rook's Jammers are 60km with 50 falloff. Durp de durp. Did I mention that the Curse needs recons 5 to get 36km neut range, while a Rook has the same range no matter what?

"ECM ships have crappy tanks."

So would a Curse if you were to use the aformentioned fit ^. It's still less effective than a Rook.

"ECM is only powerful against minmatar because of their low sensor strength."

Nope; racial jammers give it the potential to devastate anything. See the Harb example.

What did I miss? /flameon
Death Toll007
Perkone
Caldari State
#82 - 2012-01-23 06:39:24 UTC
Evolved into emo flame war.

Side 1: ECM is OP and I'm gonna cry about it.
Side 2: ECM is not OP, there are plenty of mechanics that counter it.
Side 1: ECM is OP and I want to chcange it so I do not have to worry about it, and can happily PvP with the Tank, orbit, F1 strategy.
Side 2: Wait... didn't you use ECM?!?
Side 1: Wh... What? No... well... I never inhaled...
Side 2. Don't you sill use ECM?
Side 1: The cake is a lie!

Nothing accomplished except whining.

-DT
Tore Smith
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#83 - 2012-01-23 09:30:35 UTC
Kill it with fire I say!

+1 for heavily changing the jam mechanics/strength for drones! Make them need specialised ships or something. Anything will be good, that makes them less fun crippling.

+1 for only a slight adjustment on ecm ships. Reasonable would be a decrease in cycle time.


Andrea Griffin
#84 - 2012-01-23 10:11:54 UTC
ECCM should boost sensor strength as it does now, and also provide a 25-50% resistance to TDs and Damps.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#85 - 2012-01-23 10:22:42 UTC
Maybe a rookie remark but isn't a stealth bomber a good counter for emc.

both for bombing the emc ships drones, but doesn't also have an EMC bomb braeking the lockons for everybody.

It would require tactics where you keep reinforcements/reserve troops, but those work in real war as well.
Wacktopia
State War Academy
Caldari State
#86 - 2012-01-23 10:38:45 UTC
Just a suggestion for a possible change:

EC-300 - Jam for 5 seconds
EC-600 - Jam for 10 seconds
EC-900 - Jam for 15 seconds

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com

whaynethepain
#87 - 2012-01-23 11:18:21 UTC
Well the only thing that irritates me more than ECM, is people trying to bring stuff down to their level.

Seriously, the game and dev's are not at fault bro.

ECM drones often fail, ECM drones are slow, ECM drones are easily smart-bombed, ECM drones are counterable with ECCM, ECM drones work at standard drone distances, etc..

Dude, If you wan't to win, you are gonna have to work a little harder than trying to nerf everything down to your skill lvl's.

ECM drones or not, you were going to loose that engagement, you were out-classed and out manned.

Say ECM drones get the boot, people will use a blackbird or Rook, what then, ask to nerf that? People will use Damps after that, TD's, Neuts, raw DPS.

Have you considered improving your skills rather than bringing the rest of us down to your level? It is possible, try it, be a good player.

Getting you on your feet.

So you've further to fall.

Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#88 - 2012-01-23 15:32:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
whaynethepain wrote:
Well the only thing that irritates me more than ECM, is people trying to bring stuff down to their level.

Seriously, the game and dev's are not at fault bro.

ECM drones often fail, ECM drones are slow, ECM drones are easily smart-bombed, ECM drones are counterable with ECCM, ECM drones work at standard drone distances, etc..

Dude, If you wan't to win, you are gonna have to work a little harder than trying to nerf everything down to your skill lvl's.

ECM drones or not, you were going to loose that engagement, you were out-classed and out manned.

Say ECM drones get the boot, people will use a blackbird or Rook, what then, ask to nerf that? People will use Damps after that, TD's, Neuts, raw DPS.


Seeing as how Damps, TD's, Neuts, and raw DPS aren't OP as hell, I'll settle for just nerfing the ECM mechanic (both drones and ships) in general.

Telling people to "increase their skill level" to counter an OP mechanic is stupid. Should Gallente pilots before the buff have "increased their skill level" to counter everyone else? What about pre-Dominion Minmatar pilots, should they? Or maybe anything that used to be trying to catch a Dramiel - IF I'M SKILLED ENOUGH I'LL BE ABLE TO CATCH IT EVEN THOUGH I HAVE LOWER MAX VELOCITY! Or maybe all those AF pilots who are shafted of a fourth bonus can also remedy it through "increased skill?"

The very fact that I need to "increase my skill" to a higher level to counter ECM than I do to counter anything else is proof of its imbalance.
fgft Athonille
Doomheim
#89 - 2012-01-23 23:51:05 UTC
if you were so good and you make so many pvp videos saying you are good wildcat you could handle ecm without crying

oh well fireman. i wait for your next tears to fuel me
Tore Smith
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#90 - 2012-01-24 09:21:35 UTC
fgft Athonille wrote:
if you were so good and you make so many pvp videos saying you are good wildcat you could handle ecm without crying

oh well fireman. i wait for your next tears to fuel me


i wonder, is your dong smaller than your brain or the other way around?
Rel'k Bloodlor
Guldan Age Stories
Federation Front Line
#91 - 2012-01-24 09:32:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Rel'k Bloodlor
@OP
Smart bombs, I know its been posted already. But don't underestmate the utility of smart bombs! Not only do they make short work of ECM drones, but one a little guy tryes to get under your guns it can save ya. Also if you'r a lucky basterd it can wipe-out a wave of missles just like that. If you move in for the kill at point blank and start up smart bombs you can nab the pod too!

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 

DooDoo Gum
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2012-01-24 10:21:15 UTC
DHB WildCat wrote:
Hi all, now for a story.

3 of us in alts were out looking for a fight 8). We jump into a low sec system where we find a bellicose, tornado, and arazu just off grid. We three are hurricane / drake / harb. We decide sure we'll go for it, might not get there but what the hey.

We engage the arazu. the tornado runs to range and hits us hard. the bellicose and arazu launch full flights of light ecm drones. Drake perma jammed. Hurricane scrammed at 20k no mwd. harb still fighting strong. Soon 6 more enemy land on us.... meh whatever we knew it was a hard fight from the beginning. Maybe we can take down something with us. So 2 tempests, drake, and few other things land. All launch light ecm drones, my overview flood with them. 30 Ish in total. Roughly ten on us each. All three of us now perma jammed. Literally, Perma jammed but light ECM drones.

I dont mind dieing, I dont mind being ganked if I can fight back and go down swinging. However this rash of ECM needs to be addressed please!

I dont care how it is handled, stacking penalties / strength reduced / speed reduced on drones so they cant catch moving targets........

Whatever the idea I am begging CCP to look into ecm. It is completely ruining the fun of this game. Everything else in game has a counter other than ecm. ECCM does not work.

Thank you,

Wild


ho ho ho... permajammed ??

you my friend, were just unlucky... very unlucky...
Xiozor
State War Academy
Caldari State
#93 - 2012-01-24 10:48:43 UTC
ECM drones?

Fit smartbombs.
Muad 'dib
The Nine Nine
#94 - 2012-01-24 19:02:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Muad 'dib
face it, ecm/ecm drones is a dice roll for a win in a pvp fight thats COMPLETLY BASED OFF SKILLS AND FITTING AND MODULES.

yeah great **** everything, lets just roll a dice instead, ******* dumbest mechanic ever and you all know it.

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.

Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#95 - 2012-01-25 06:35:56 UTC
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=61814&find=unread

That's how I'd fix that. Not sure where it could have helped in your case, but hey!.. Big smile

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.

Stukkler Tian
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#96 - 2012-01-26 01:21:13 UTC
I looked at this thread hoping to find help countering ecm drones. I got a few answers but would like some followup questions.
1) Smartbombs- I liked this idea alot, How effective is it with medium or even small smart bombs (can they reach orbiting drones) How many will i need/will 2 in my utility mids be enough?
2) eccm how is it when dealing specifically with 5 light ecm drones
3) been looking into jackals or other such implants how effective are they?

Keep in mind my concern is centered around a lowsec solo/duo type fights, I dont care about how these things help with ECM on falcons and such. Finally i would like to hear from someone who has actually implemented them in game, outside of a blob. I have eft i can crunch the numbers myself im looking for actual information.

(ECM in general does need to be looked at if for no other reason than its boring)
IGNATIUS HOOD
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#97 - 2012-01-26 16:20:07 UTC
Reppyk wrote:
Use a ******* smartbomb.


A use for the 8th slot on an Armageddon... Cool
"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."   --H.L. Mencken
Rel'k Bloodlor
Guldan Age Stories
Federation Front Line
#98 - 2012-01-26 16:30:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Rel'k Bloodlor
Stukkler Tian wrote:
I looked at this thread hoping to find help countering ecm drones. I got a few answers but would like some followup questions.
1) Smartbombs- I liked this idea alot, How effective is it with medium or even small smart bombs (can they reach orbiting drones) How many will i need/will 2 in my utility mids be enough?
2) eccm how is it when dealing specifically with 5 light ecm drones
3) been looking into jackals or other such implants how effective are they?

Keep in mind my concern is centered around a lowsec solo/duo type fights, I dont care about how these things help with ECM on falcons and such. Finally i would like to hear from someone who has actually implemented them in game, outside of a blob. I have eft i can crunch the numbers myself im looking for actual information.

(ECM in general does need to be looked at if for no other reason than its boring)


1)medium are fine small can some times not hit the bigger ECM drones back, But if your a little guy your probably close to them and can just close to them. Also bumping with smart bombs can still help with DPS and messing up there aline well jammed at the risk of killing your sides drones.

2) poorly as the drones already have very small chances and are using lots of "dice rolls" to get you. So cutting there 5% to a 2.5% that there going to still use en-mass don't work.

3)Got nothing on that. Tho snakes can make fast things fast enuff to kite some of the slower ECM drones.

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats.