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can we please address the issue!?

Author
DarkAegix
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2012-01-21 13:58:40 UTC
Vandir Rael wrote:
DarkAegix wrote:
Maelstrom 1 is being
-Neuted
-Tracking disrupted
-Dampened
-Long pointed
-Log webbed
-Target painted
by 3 ewar cruisers (Amarr, Gallente, Minmatar). It can still fire its guns on close targets, point things and command its drones, doing minimal damage.

Maelstrom 2 is being
-ECM jammed
by 1 ewar cruiser (Caldari). It can't do a single thing.


ECM has significant issues.


A dampened BS against a cruiser won't be able to hit it, unless the cruiser is really stupid.

And when you are ECM jammed you can use your drones, just put them on aggressive Roll

Look at you, clutching at straws Lol
You can't even deny the fact that Maelstrom 1 is more useful in combat than Maelstrom 2!
DarkXale
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2012-01-21 14:04:53 UTC  |  Edited by: DarkXale
Vandir Rael wrote:
And when you are ECM jammed you can use your drones, just put them on aggressive Roll

So can the first Maelstrom, but still with control (in some cases) - e.g. to target drones surrounding it. Would take forever to lock up, but yeah.
Kingwood
Gone Krabbing
#23 - 2012-01-21 14:05:24 UTC
While I think the entire ECM mechanic is garbage and should be removed or significantly altered because all it does is facilitate no-risk ganks while being useless in larger gangs - didn't you always use to have a Falcon alt with you, DHB?
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2012-01-21 15:33:19 UTC
oh noo another noobsec qq , with the follow of other noobsec noobs liang kingnoob ... .total fail
fit smartbombs or other anti drone things noobs
fail sec where qq dominates
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2012-01-21 15:35:52 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:
Maelstrom 1 is being
-Neuted
-Tracking disrupted
-Dampened
-Long pointed
-Log webbed
-Target painted
by 3 ewar cruisers (Amarr, Gallente, Minmatar). It can still fire its guns on close targets, point things and command its drones, doing minimal damage.

Maelstrom 2 is being
-ECM jammed
by 1 ewar cruiser (Caldari). It can't do a single thing.


ECM has significant issues.

so mael needs a nerf so it cant point /shoot when neuted--> nerf winmatar
Marcus Henik
Rules of Acquisition
#26 - 2012-01-21 15:36:35 UTC
Fit smart bombs to counter ecm drones. Assign your drones to assist somone who can lock. Ever flown a cap using ship and been neuted? That kind of blows, and there is nothing you can do about it.
Every single whine about ecm seems to go like this: waaaa my cookie cutter point web scrambles microwarp Dps derp fit can't do anything when some guy gots a e-war boat. Fit to counter and score some nice kills.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2012-01-21 16:02:38 UTC
Marcus Henik wrote:
Fit smart bombs to counter ecm drones. Assign your drones to assist somone who can lock. Ever flown a cap using ship and been neuted? That kind of blows, and there is nothing you can do about it.
Every single whine about ecm seems to go like this: waaaa my cookie cutter point web scrambles microwarp Dps derp fit can't do anything when some guy gots a e-war boat. Fit to counter and score some nice kills.

but fitting vs something that happens in nearly every fights is for noobs ,
why should pro pvp gods loose precious dps /ehp if they can qq on forum??
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2012-01-21 22:46:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
I tried making a thread like this awhile back, got flamed to hell and back, gave up.

There's actually quite a simple reason why ECM is so overused - it combines the abilities of multiple types of EWAR, able to do their job to a similar or greater effect. There's no need to use TD's when something can't target you anyway, there's no need to reduce something's lock range when they can't lock you at any range, there's no reason to neut out something's guns/tackle when it can't target you.

On top of this, ECM also has superior range to most EWAR, and the ability to specialize (racial jammers) to an even more devastating effect.

Then there's the fact that ECCM is useless unless you're being jammed. Cap boosters are useful to keep your MWD/tank running even if you aren't getting neuted; Microwarpdrives/ABs are useful to increase speed even when you aren't being webbed/scrammed; Sensor boosters are useful to increase targeting speed even if you're not getting damped; tracking enhancers/computers are useful to increase DPS even if you're not being TD'ed... But ECCM? Nope, all that can do is reduce the chance that you get jammed. And even after gimping your fit with ECCM, meh, you'll probably get jammed anyway.

To top it all off, there's the fact that ECM is simply a boring mechanic. It locks you completely out of a fight, basically unable to do anything but run away or run your tank, and the chance of surviving all comes down to dicerolls. Great, so the success of my entire fleet may depend on whether or not my scimi can get a rep cycle in, which in turn depends on... What numbers the server rolls. Straight

I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds this broken.
Kingwood
Gone Krabbing
#29 - 2012-01-21 23:11:33 UTC
Marcus Henik wrote:
Fit smart bombs to counter ecm drones. Assign your drones to assist somone who can lock. Ever flown a cap using ship and been neuted? That kind of blows, and there is nothing you can do about it.
Every single whine about ecm seems to go like this: waaaa my cookie cutter point web scrambles microwarp Dps derp fit can't do anything when some guy gots a e-war boat. Fit to counter and score some nice kills.


I have no problem with engaging a Curse or other ships with neuts so I'm not sure what your point is.

I'm saying ECM is a completely dumb mechanic which facilitates riskless ganks because all Falcons/Rooks are good for is engaging solo/duo roamers. As soon as the enemy gang includes at least 3 people in gang ECM becomes pretty much useless because there's a high chance of one not being jammed and being able to kill the ECM ship. Feel free to browse through my Falcon killmails.

Discussing this with random people over the internet is a moot point, by the way, and I'm just waiting to see how CCP is intending to change the ECM mechanic.

Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2012-01-21 23:30:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
Quote:
so mael needs a nerf so it cant point /shoot when neuted--> nerf winmatar


You do realize that most solo/small gang Maels have a cap booster anyway? And that Maels can't point things to any greater effect than any other ship?

And ironically, Minmatar is the most negatively affected by ECM, due to their abysmal sensor strength.

Very well then; since you shout "nerf Minmatar" at every possible chance and probably aren't capable of conscious thought when Minnies are involved because you're too busy ~being mad~, let's use a Raven as an example instead:

DarkAegix wrote:

Maelstrom Raven 1 is being
-Neuted
-Tracking disrupted
-Dampened
-Long pointed
-Log webbed
-Target painted
by 3 ewar cruisers (Amarr, Gallente, Minmatar). It can still fire its guns torps on close targets, point things and command its drones, doing minimal damage.

Maelstrom Raven 2 is being
-ECM jammed
by 1 ewar cruiser (Caldari). It can't do a single thing.


ECM has significant issues.
Written Word
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2012-01-21 23:40:27 UTC
I died once

Can I cry here too?
Erytheus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2012-01-21 23:55:30 UTC
ECM is always the worst thing in the world until you have it in your own fleet...

In certain situations, tracking disruption can be far more effective. It is always active, and never misses. Two can completely disable any gunboat in the game if you do it right.

Sensor damps are even more stupid in my opinion, they too also never miss, and reduce your targets range to nothing. Effectively mimicking ECM...

Yes, ECM is nice, IF you land it. And the prior comments about how you lose a tank on a falcon / blackbird are absolutely true.

Electronic warfare as a whole is just fine. Learn to fly like a boss?
Kingwood
Gone Krabbing
#33 - 2012-01-22 01:11:05 UTC
Erytheus wrote:
ECM is always the worst thing in the world until you have it in your own fleet...

In certain situations, tracking disruption can be far more effective. It is always active, and never misses. Two can completely disable any gunboat in the game if you do it right.

Sensor damps are even more stupid in my opinion, they too also never miss, and reduce your targets range to nothing. Effectively mimicking ECM...

Yes, ECM is nice, IF you land it. And the prior comments about how you lose a tank on a falcon / blackbird are absolutely true.

Electronic warfare as a whole is just fine. Learn to fly like a boss?


Looking at your recent kills your gang always has two Falcons with one of them being flown by you. n1
Jeremy Ironforge
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2012-01-22 01:36:35 UTC
imho the main problem is 20 seconds of jamm. In cruiser/BC class engage one proc equals to a win if no other horrible mistakes were made. So why not just remove/reduce the time for which affected ship can't lock?

That way ECM will be less painfull to lower class ships since they can relock fast but a BS with 100mm will suffer enough.

Also need to rework ECCM modules and lower ECM drones jamm strength.
DarkAegix
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2012-01-22 04:27:15 UTC
Roosterton wrote:

Very well then; since you shout "nerf Minmatar" at every possible chance and probably aren't capable of conscious thought when Minnies are involved because you're too busy ~being mad~, let's use a Raven as an example instead:

DarkAegix wrote:

Maelstrom Raven 1 is being
-Neuted
-Tracking disrupted
-Dampened
-Long pointed
-Log webbed
-Target painted
by 3 ewar cruisers (Amarr, Gallente, Minmatar). It can still fire its guns torps on close targets, point things and command its drones, doing minimal damage.

Maelstrom Raven 2 is being
-ECM jammed
by 1 ewar cruiser (Caldari). It can't do a single thing.


ECM has significant issues.

Are you trying to make a point against me?
From what I see, Raven 1 is in an EVEN BETTER position than Maelstrom 1. Particularly because missiles can't be tracking disrupted.
ECM, however, doesn't discriminate and so works every time.

So, thanks for proving my point?

Unless, of course, you're trying to prove to me right now that Caldari is more overpowered than Minmatar. In that case, go to a different thread.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#36 - 2012-01-22 04:48:04 UTC
Erytheus wrote:
ECM is always the worst thing in the world until you have it in your own fleet...

In certain situations, tracking disruption can be far more effective. It is always active, and never misses. Two can completely disable any gunboat in the game if you do it right.

Sensor damps are even more stupid in my opinion, they too also never miss, and reduce your targets range to nothing. Effectively mimicking ECM...

Yes, ECM is nice, IF you land it. And the prior comments about how you lose a tank on a falcon / blackbird are absolutely true.

Electronic warfare as a whole is just fine. Learn to fly like a boss?


Right now, ECM is one jam, one ship, in gang fights. SD's are two to three damps per one ship. I can see how that works, considering that all you have to do is close with the dampening ship and, voila, you can now lock him 100% of the time! So you field a Falcon and can knock out 3-4 ships from the fight, or you field one Lachesis and can knock out...one ship.
Cephelange du'Krevviq
Aegis Reforged
Already Replaced.
#37 - 2012-01-22 05:13:30 UTC
Maybe with absolutely perfect skills, ECM feels like an "IWIN" button. I can tell you, trying to jam Guardians in a fight last night, my jams were landing less than half the time. Guess they were smart and fit ECCM?

"I am a leaf on the...ah, frak it!"

Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2012-01-22 06:15:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
DarkAegix wrote:
Roosterton wrote:

Very well then; since you shout "nerf Minmatar" at every possible chance and probably aren't capable of conscious thought when Minnies are involved because you're too busy ~being mad~, let's use a Raven as an example instead:

DarkAegix wrote:

Maelstrom Raven 1 is being
-Neuted
-Tracking disrupted
-Dampened
-Long pointed
-Log webbed
-Target painted
by 3 ewar cruisers (Amarr, Gallente, Minmatar). It can still fire its guns torps on close targets, point things and command its drones, doing minimal damage.

Maelstrom Raven 2 is being
-ECM jammed
by 1 ewar cruiser (Caldari). It can't do a single thing.


ECM has significant issues.

Are you trying to make a point against me?
From what I see, Raven 1 is in an EVEN BETTER position than Maelstrom 1. Particularly because missiles can't be tracking disrupted.
ECM, however, doesn't discriminate and so works every time.

So, thanks for proving my point?

Unless, of course, you're trying to prove to me right now that Caldari is more overpowered than Minmatar. In that case, go to a different thread.


Re-read what I wrote - see the quote at the very top? I was making a point against Naomi, and agreeing with you. P This is exactly what I was trying to get at.

I had just been using your quote since it was you who he was originally responding to. I know we've flamed each other in the past, but that doesn't mean I'm going to hate and disagree with you forever Big smile.

Quote:
So, thanks for proving my point?


You're welcome.
Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2012-01-22 07:15:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Cedo Nulli
I propose remaking the ecm mechanic to the following model:

ECM doesent shutdown lock totally unless its "Excellent hit", normal hit from ecm would make you lose random number of your weapon/support module volleys according to how good the hit was.

ECCM would decrease the chance to get top and good quality hits from ECM.

Sensor strenght would play its part in the calculation of the hit qualities.

This mechanic would make it to be helpful but not automaticly a win-button. Noteworthy is that it would also make the ECM bonused ships more into their role as they would provide higher chance for better quality hits based on their role bonuses. Yet it wouldnt mean automatic win either.
DarkAegix
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2012-01-22 07:39:02 UTC
Roosterton wrote:
DarkAegix wrote:
Roosterton wrote:

Very well then; since you shout "nerf Minmatar" at every possible chance and probably aren't capable of conscious thought when Minnies are involved because you're too busy ~being mad~, let's use a Raven as an example instead:

DarkAegix wrote:

Maelstrom Raven 1 is being
-Neuted
-Tracking disrupted
-Dampened
-Long pointed
-Log webbed
-Target painted
by 3 ewar cruisers (Amarr, Gallente, Minmatar). It can still fire its guns torps on close targets, point things and command its drones, doing minimal damage.

Maelstrom Raven 2 is being
-ECM jammed
by 1 ewar cruiser (Caldari). It can't do a single thing.


ECM has significant issues.

Are you trying to make a point against me?
From what I see, Raven 1 is in an EVEN BETTER position than Maelstrom 1. Particularly because missiles can't be tracking disrupted.
ECM, however, doesn't discriminate and so works every time.

So, thanks for proving my point?

Unless, of course, you're trying to prove to me right now that Caldari is more overpowered than Minmatar. In that case, go to a different thread.


Re-read what I wrote - see the quote at the very top? I was making a point against Naomi, and agreeing with you. P This is exactly what I was trying to get at.

I had just been using your quote since it was you who he was originally responding to. I know we've flamed each other in the past, but that doesn't mean I'm going to hate and disagree with you forever Big smile.

Quote:
So, thanks for proving my point?


You're welcome.

<3