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Solution to AFK Cloakers?

First post
Author
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#81 - 2017-07-20 20:44:32 UTC
Li Soikutsu wrote:
Time to fix this nonsense already ....

just check how much the threat has been viewed should be a clear sign it's a problem..
No matter what arguments you make having influence in a MMO while being AFK should never be possible.

In activity timer for X amount of time before save log off............ problem fixed.

YOU ARE WELCOME Blink


Roll

Seriously? That is the best you got, lots of people have looked at this thread? It tells you nothing of what the views are on the issue of those looking at the thread.

The problem is you cannot tell when a player is AFK or not. And given the nature of EVE relative to other games you will be logging off ATK players. Why would you want to do that?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#82 - 2017-07-20 20:48:42 UTC
Scialt wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Scialt wrote:


Putting your screen in the background and never interacting with the client after log on... is not.


How nice of you to define activity to support your position.

I submit that sitting in my chair, chatting with others via trillian and periodically glancing at my client to see if a market order is completed is activity. Considering that poeple logged in can influence the game, at least in a small way, allowing people to be logged in and not interacting with the client at a frequency you deem appropriate is not your call to make.

Stop trying to micro-manage other people's time in game. If somebody needs to wait out a jump fatigue timer and they want to go AFK, that is not a big deal. Logging them off to suit your pleasure when you might be on the other side of the map or may never ever interact with them anyways is just foolishness.

Edit: I will also note: It is nice to see you finally admit you'll log off non-empty chairs. Of course it would have been nice if you simply admitted this up front. Roll


It's not activity.

Activity means taking an action. So to be active in a game means to take action in the game. This isn't some odd personal definition... it's what the word means. If you take no action in the client... you are not active in the game... and thus are not showing activity. Yes... I might be active in real life... but I'm not in the game.... because I've taken NO ACTIONS IN THE GAME. Brushing my teeth is an activity... but not in the game.

Are you really not able to understand this? Or are you just trying to parse words to avoid the actual topic?

As for the rest of your rather comical defense of "playing a game without actually playing"... I just can't comprehend that concept. I can't see how a logged in account that you never click on and can't be bothered to click on if a message pops up about being logged off for lack of activity is anything other than an "empty chair". It behaves the exact same way an empty chair would if it were running the eve client.

Again... for me a multiple player game must have an actual player involved... not an empty chair (or a player who is sitting in the chair but refuses to hit their keyboard or move the mouse or in any way interact with the client).


Whatever, I say it is activity. Looking to see if a buy order is complete, looking to see if some people are undocking is activity. You want to define activity to suit the outcome you want.

Making players sit and have to periodically do stuff and make their game experience worse to make your game experience better does not strike me as reasonable...especially when many of those players made worse off are not responsible for the issue you are trying to deal with.

You should not be nerfing the game play of those who are not causing the problem.

Why are you not understanding this point?


"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#83 - 2017-07-20 20:50:44 UTC
Scialt wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Scialt wrote:


Putting your screen in the background and never interacting with the client after log on... is not.


How nice of you to define activity to support your position.

I submit that sitting in my chair, chatting with others via trillian and periodically glancing at my client to see if a market order is completed is activity. Considering that poeple logged in can influence the game, at least in a small way, allowing people to be logged in and not interacting with the client at a frequency you deem appropriate is not your call to make.

Stop trying to micro-manage other people's time in game. If somebody needs to wait out a jump fatigue timer and they want to go AFK, that is not a big deal. Logging them off to suit your pleasure when you might be on the other side of the map or may never ever interact with them anyways is just foolishness.

Edit: I will also note: It is nice to see you finally admit you'll log off non-empty chairs. Of course it would have been nice if you simply admitted this up front. Roll


It's not activity.

Activity means taking an action. So to be active in a game means to take action in the game. This isn't some odd personal definition... it's what the word means. If you take no action in the client... you are not active in the game... and thus are not showing activity. Yes... I might be active in real life... but I'm not in the game.... because I've taken NO ACTIONS IN THE GAME. Brushing my teeth is an activity... but not in the game.

Are you really not able to understand this? Or are you just trying to parse words to avoid the actual topic?

As for the rest of your rather comical defense of "playing a game without actually playing"... I just can't comprehend that concept. I can't see how a logged in account that you never click on and can't be bothered to click on if a message pops up about being logged off for lack of activity is anything other than an "empty chair". It behaves the exact same way an empty chair would if it were running the eve client.

Again... for me a multiple player game must have an actual player involved... not an empty chair (or a player who is sitting in the chair but refuses to hit their keyboard or move the mouse or in any way interact with the client).


Here...suppose you go and buy something on the market. Are you interacting with the other player? Yes. Is that player even logged in? Maybe not. Yes, you can interact with players not logged in. Why so butthurt about a player logged in but not being as active as you like?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Li Soikutsu
Vorticon Corporation
#84 - 2017-07-20 20:50:59 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Li Soikutsu wrote:
Time to fix this nonsense already ....

just check how much the threat has been viewed should be a clear sign it's a problem..
No matter what arguments you make having influence in a MMO while being AFK should never be possible.

In activity timer for X amount of time before save log off............ problem fixed.

YOU ARE WELCOME Blink


Roll

Seriously? That is the best you got, lots of people have looked at this thread? It tells you nothing of what the views are on the issue of those looking at the thread.

The problem is you cannot tell when a player is AFK or not. And given the nature of EVE relative to other games you will be logging off ATK players. Why would you want to do that?



Not having any input in the game for X amount of time is AFK,

Only thing AFK campers do anyways is trolling the forums trying to telll ppl AFK camping is OK... It's NOT.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#85 - 2017-07-20 22:40:02 UTC
Wait...now there is going to be an obnoxious pop up box?

FFS man. Just get it that your idea is awful.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#86 - 2017-07-20 22:44:20 UTC
Li Soikutsu wrote:



Not having any input in the game for X amount of time is AFK,

Only thing AFK campers do anyways is trolling the forums trying to telll ppl AFK camping is OK... It's NOT.


You're a special one aren't you.

I can chat in team speak whilst docked or at a safe whilst people have a break and eat food. Now I have to click away an obnoxious flashy thing because some nullbears are afraid of their own shadow?

No thanks.

I don't afk cloak either.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Li Soikutsu
Vorticon Corporation
#87 - 2017-07-20 23:59:26 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Li Soikutsu wrote:



Not having any input in the game for X amount of time is AFK,

Only thing AFK campers do anyways is trolling the forums trying to telll ppl AFK camping is OK... It's NOT.


You're a special one aren't you.

I can chat in team speak whilst docked or at a safe whilst people have a break and eat food. Now I have to click away an obnoxious flashy thing because some nullbears are afraid of their own shadow?

No thanks.

I don't afk cloak either.


Yes if you go AFK you better click that button or get logged off considering you ain't playing anyways. Also I never put a time on the best idea ever AFK timer popup.. let's make it 69 minutes.. if you do not have any ingame activities for 69 minutes not a single click or keystroke you should get a pop windows that you will be safe logged. And I really don't get how that's a problem considering no one was playing the game anyways.






Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#88 - 2017-07-21 00:13:16 UTC
The ui should never get in the way of the player, let alone log them off. Doesn't matter if its 23.45 hours.

Afk people do not take up server resources, they dont harm anyone and they don't gain anything. There is no reason to forcefully log anyone off except for downtime.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#89 - 2017-07-21 04:07:26 UTC
Li Soikutsu wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Li Soikutsu wrote:
Time to fix this nonsense already ....

just check how much the threat has been viewed should be a clear sign it's a problem..
No matter what arguments you make having influence in a MMO while being AFK should never be possible.

In activity timer for X amount of time before save log off............ problem fixed.

YOU ARE WELCOME Blink


Roll

Seriously? That is the best you got, lots of people have looked at this thread? It tells you nothing of what the views are on the issue of those looking at the thread.

The problem is you cannot tell when a player is AFK or not. And given the nature of EVE relative to other games you will be logging off ATK players. Why would you want to do that?



Not having any input in the game for X amount of time is AFK,

Only thing AFK campers do anyways is trolling the forums trying to telll ppl AFK camping is OK... It's NOT.


I don't AFK camp. So much for that theory then...you can go back under your bridge.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#90 - 2017-07-21 04:09:34 UTC
Li Soikutsu wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Li Soikutsu wrote:



Not having any input in the game for X amount of time is AFK,

Only thing AFK campers do anyways is trolling the forums trying to telll ppl AFK camping is OK... It's NOT.


You're a special one aren't you.

I can chat in team speak whilst docked or at a safe whilst people have a break and eat food. Now I have to click away an obnoxious flashy thing because some nullbears are afraid of their own shadow?

No thanks.

I don't afk cloak either.


Yes if you go AFK you better click that button or get logged off considering you ain't playing anyways. Also I never put a time on the best idea ever AFK timer popup.. let's make it 69 minutes.. if you do not have any ingame activities for 69 minutes not a single click or keystroke you should get a pop windows that you will be safe logged. And I really don't get how that's a problem considering no one was playing the game anyways.


People who are logged off can "play" in that they have an impact on the game. Why so butthurt over people you suspect of being AFK?

Or are you all sitting there going, "Wait...what is Teckos talking about? I don't want to call him a liar as it looks soooo much like a tarp."?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#91 - 2017-07-21 04:10:56 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
The ui should never get in the way of the player, let alone log them off. Doesn't matter if its 23.45 hours.

Afk people do not take up server resources, they dont harm anyone and they don't gain anything. There is no reason to forcefully log anyone off except for downtime.


Well technically there was that one AFK carrier pilot who was jumped by a gang of bombers and by the time he got back from wherever his geckos had wiped out most of the stealth bombers....

But that is the exception that proves the rule, IMO.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Black Pedro
Mine.
#92 - 2017-07-21 06:18:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
If the OP had posted in the correct thread and this discussion carried out in the appropriate place, the AFK cloaking thread would be over page 500 now. That would at least have been an achievement rather just him starting another go-nowhere thread where players whine about something CCP is well aware of.

CCP knows some people don't like cloaky camping and want something proactive they can do against a cloaked scout.

CCP wants there to be risk in nullsec so they can't just nerf cloaks making the apex group near invulnerable.

These conflicting interests are not simple to resolve.

I have no doubt this is on the midterm roadmap and will finally get addressed at some point, but it is not going to be by the simplistic call to nerf cloaks or the ability to stay logged into the game (seriously people?) that self-interested nullbears have been spewing for years.

Nullsec is seriously off-course at this point. Despite the lion's share of ISK and minerals being given to nullsec, there is very little conflict flowing from that. Lack of scarcity, and too much safety in part provided by the free and perfect intel of local, has turned nullsec into a farming zone where everyone spends their time just fortifying their space and turbo-farming resources that are having a deleterious effect on the economy to the point some players are being pushed out of the game because they can no longer compete.

I don't know what can be done to realize their game vision, but I do know that CCP isn't going to make a change that only would make the nullbears even safer and reduce the chance of conflict even more. Any one who spills tears on the forum asking them to has no understanding of how the game is suppose to work.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#93 - 2017-07-21 06:34:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Black Pedro wrote:
If the OP had posted in the correct thread and this discussion carried out in the appropriate place, the AFK cloaking thread would be over page 500 now. That would at least have been an achievement rather just him starting another go-nowhere thread where players whine about something CCP is well aware of.

CCP knows some people don't like cloaky camping and want something proactive they can do against a cloaked scout.

CCP wants there to be risk in nullsec so they can't just nerf cloaks making the apex group near invulnerable.

These conflicting interests are not simple to resolve.

I have no doubt this is on the midterm roadmap and will finally get addressed at some point, but it is not going to be by the sinplistic call to nerf cloaks or the ability to stay logged into the game (seriously people?) that self-interested nullbears have been spewing for years.

Nullsec is seriously off-course at this point. Despite the lion's share of ISK and minerals being given to nullsec, there is very little conflict flowing from that. Lack of scarcity, and too much safety in part provided by the free and perfect intel of local, has turned nullsec into a farming zone where everyone spends their time just fortifying their space and turbo-farming resources that are having a deleterious effect on the economy to the point some players are being pushed out of the game because they can no longer compete.

I don't know what can be done to realize their game vision, but I do know that CCP isn't going to make a change that only would make the nullbears even safer and reduce the chance of conflict even more. Any one who spills tears on the forum asking them to has no understanding of how the game is suppose to work.


See....this is why you guys should post in the sticky thread...so Black Pedro does not come along and make everyone feel dumb.

You silly buggers.

Edit: Any change that leads to a big NS war would be welcomed by me. I have been in wars where my side has lost, won, lost, won, lost, won and lost...and in every single one I have had fun. To be quite honest I really don't care if we win or lose, I just want to shoot ****.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#94 - 2017-07-21 12:53:18 UTC
Scialt wrote:
I just would rather play a mmo with players who are actually at their keyboards. Guess I'm odd that way.

My mom was watching as I was reading through this thread again last night and she latched onto this specific comment.
Her response was simple, elegant and it takes no effort from CCP AND if you take the advice WE do not have to deal with this idiotic auto log off timer. And so I quote her directly.

"He simply needs to consider ALL cloaked ships to be an active player, that would solve his problems."

Leave it to a 95 year that does not play computer games to come up with the easy solution.
But you know she is right and this should be an easy task since there is no way for you to know for sure if a cloaked ship has an AFK player behind it or not.
Greylord Kane
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2017-07-21 15:06:05 UTC
Hmmm didn't know EVE was suppose to be a game you just log in and walk away from your keyboard all day. That doesn't even make sense....unless you are purposely doing it to grief a system. I can understand if you are playing the game actively and waiting at your keyboard for a hot drop. A sniper waits for his target, doesn't leave his gun hidden in the bushes and just goes into town, takes a nap, goes to the store, and then comes back later. They're has to be a balance between active cloak camping (Which is fine) and AFK Cloaking (which is not) which is done purposefully for act of griefing systems and players (Which MANY games have now put some sort of Anti AFK system in place. (smart smart smart smart ...smart.) All of the outlined things that have been mentioned before, Fuel for the cloaking device, Anti cloaking devices for citadels, Timing out if away from keyboard too long. Should be looked into. The people who support no local have their options to just go into a WH and stay :) But for a majority of the people Pro AFK cloaking or touting to get tougher, or fleet up, or similar things... if you look them up they are the ones doing AKF cloaking and causing the issue. Truly sad. There is a serious unfair balance which will continue to drive people from the game unfortunately. And just watch here come the responses now to protect their precious griefing tactics, bottom line if your going to play a game be at your keyboard and play. The if CCP does balance out cloaking shouldn't be a big deal for the droppers and people who are properly using the mechanics.
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
#96 - 2017-07-21 15:07:16 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Scialt wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
I also have to ask what is gained here? Nothing really.

Suppose I am logged in and AFK, can you interact with me or I with you? No.

Suppose I am auto logged off, can you interact with me or I with you? No.

At best you can say that, there is a higher proportion of players logged in who are not AFK. But you can interact with them already. So again...nothing is gained unless you are trying to interact with random players this will likely have little to any impact on how people play the game.



It saves me the time from TRYING to interact with you but having no actual chance of interaction because you are AFK.

I like trying bait a cloaked dropper. I do not like wasting hours of effort trying to bait an empty chair.


Either way you gain information...so what...you should have things made easier for you?


Because it's a MMO.

massively mulitPLAYER

key-word... player. Not bot. Not empty-chair. Player.

It's not about 'easy'. It's about a game based on having a massive amount of players ensuring that players are actually present.
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
#97 - 2017-07-21 15:11:27 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Scialt wrote:
I just would rather play a mmo with players who are actually at their keyboards. Guess I'm odd that way.

My mom was watching as I was reading through this thread again last night and she latched onto this specific comment.
Her response was simple, elegant and it takes no effort from CCP AND if you take the advice WE do not have to deal with this idiotic auto log off timer. And so I quote her directly.

"He simply needs to consider ALL cloaked ships to be an active player, that would solve his problems."

Leave it to a 95 year that does not play computer games to come up with the easy solution.
But you know she is right and this should be an easy task since there is no way for you to know for sure if a cloaked ship has an AFK player behind it or not.


I do treat all cloaked ships as active.

I find it annoying when I go through the trouble of doing that and NOBODY IS FREAKING THERE.

See my point?

I'm TRYING to give you target. I WANT you to shoot at my ship. I'm actively trying to play a multiplayer game with other players. I am making every effort to create content. But I have no chance because you're too busy chatting with your mom to freaking click on your client once ever 20 minutes.

I'm glad you're chatting with your mom. Log off first so I'm not wasting my time trying to interact with an empty chair.
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
#98 - 2017-07-21 15:19:26 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
The ui should never get in the way of the player, let alone log them off. Doesn't matter if its 23.45 hours.

Afk people do not take up server resources, they dont harm anyone and they don't gain anything. There is no reason to forcefully log anyone off except for downtime.


I've never seen Eve's code... but I have a hard time believing that a player logged in does not impact server resources. It may be a small enough impact to not matter, but a player simply being in a system will have some actual impact on the performance of others in the system, even if they are doing nothing. Any time you do something in the game that requires the server to report back to your client on the other players present... the number of said players will impact the time taken for that call.

CCP can tell us that having 1000 AFK cloaked ships in a system has a negligible impact and I'm going to believe them. If they say it has no impact I'm going to try to get them to show me their code so I can figure out how to do that trick in my work.
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
#99 - 2017-07-21 15:28:58 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:


Whatever, I say it is activity. Looking to see if a buy order is complete, looking to see if some people are undocking is activity. You want to define activity to suit the outcome you want.

Making players sit and have to periodically do stuff and make their game experience worse to make your game experience better does not strike me as reasonable...especially when many of those players made worse off are not responsible for the issue you are trying to deal with.

You should not be nerfing the game play of those who are not causing the problem.

Why are you not understanding this point?





Because it's not a point.

This reminds me of Bill Clinton's impeachment. "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."

You're trying to define activity as not taking an action in the game.

Not taking an action = no activity.

I'm frankly concerned how many Eve players think playing the game involves... not ever touching their keyboard or mouse.


Greylord Kane
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2017-07-21 15:36:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Greylord Kane
Why are you not understanding this point?


[/quote]


Because it's not a point.

This reminds me of Bill Clinton's impeachment. "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."

You're trying to define activity as not taking an action in the game.

Not taking an action = no activity.

I'm frankly concerned how many Eve players think playing the game involves... not ever touching their keyboard or mouse.


[/quote]


Well exactly right? If they purposely log a character on and go AFK for prolonged periods of time. Either they had way to much milk products and they are plugged up or they are purposely grieffing a system.... other wise they'd be on and active.

Maybe they should just do away with cloaking period. .lol wouldn't that be interesting.