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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Solution to AFK Cloakers?

First post
Author
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#61 - 2017-07-19 15:06:13 UTC
Scialt wrote:
All of those things can still be done with a toon where you you open up your character sheet or evemail or just click in a chat window without actually doing anything that takes you out of cloak once every 20 minutes.

First off I can watch a character and what is going on around them WITHOUT having to interact with that client. However that is not relevant because this comment clearly shows that you have missed the point.
Why do I have to increase my efforts simply because you want to be safer in an area of space that is not supposed to be safe to start with.
Why do I have to increase my efforts when you cannot or will not put forth the effort to simply move to another system to get away from me?

Scialt wrote:
If you're at your keyboard, ESPECIALLY if you're actually watching the screen... when a popup comes up that says "you have been inactive and will be logged out in 2 minutes" it is very easy to do some meaningless activity to cancel the logout.

How about that trip to relieve oneself, or do you propose the we urinate or defecate into a bottle or pan we keep at our computers simply so we can be there to deal with your auto log off idea?
And what about that phone call, you know that one from your mom, sister whatever that keeps you away from the computer listening to all the latest family gossip or other useless crap just long enough to get booted by the log off timer?
And how about that annoying person that knocks on your door?
No I do not care that twe have to deal with these things in those other games, we know that when we start playing them.
EvE on the other hand has never had an auto log off "feature" so this would represent a major change.

I guess the most important question here is simply this.
Interact to cancel the auto log off or move to another system. Both require about the same amount of effort, as one that is cloaky camping your system and I am active at the keyboard why do I have to deal with this annoying log off timer crap when you can simply move to another system?

Scialt wrote:
If you're playing the game (even on another screen) an afk logout timer has no real impact on you at all. It only impacts you if you're not actually at your computer. Most games do this already. Why waste system resources on a player who's not there?

Here we go with the tired old crap of most games do xxxxx, well EvE is not like "most" games and you better get used to that fact . CCP does not do things like "most " games and no auto log off is one of those things they do differently.
CCP does many things that do not make sense, however considering how disruptive delays, lag and TiDi can be to those who play the game I can assure you that auto log off would be a thing in this game IF CCP was convinced that it would actually help eliminate those issues, since we have never had and currently do not have auto log off one can only surmise that CCP does not consider AFK players to be enough of a drain on system resources to do anything about it.
zitellona
No Risk No ISK
#62 - 2017-07-19 15:33:55 UTC  |  Edited by: zitellona
Empire Raider wrote:
IB4 topic locked...

Yeah this thing about AFK cloakers has been posted over and over. If there's something this tells us is that CCP should do something about it, one way or another.

Personally I don't think forcing them out of cloak is the solution, sometimes people just have to go AFK and there's nothing wrong about it.

I don't think a perfect solution for this problem will ever exist, but they could start by the directional scanner. Being able to tell if there are cloaked ships around even if you remain oblivious to their hull type or exact position would be a great start. And if even that is too much to ask, make a specialized ship with that ability. This way cloaked ships can still prowl on solo targets but a fleet or a resident corporation with this specialized ship will be able to at least detect the threat.


I believe that using the directional scanner should give away the position of the ship that is running the scan. Just like with anomalies, there should be a red circle in the direction of the scanning ship for 1 minute.
If there are enough people in the system, you may be able to triangulate the position of the cloaked ship.
Once the position is roughly known, you can put special passive probes that listen for incoming scans. If the cloaker does a scan, the probes triangulate his position and give a warp in point.

Any active signal emitting from the ship should be vulnerable to being scanned by the passive probes.
I'd classify these activities as sending out active signals:
- sending messages into a chat
- changing position of probes (the ship has to send an active signal to probes to tell them where to scan and this signal will reach both probes and enemy ships)
- starting a scan with probes
- using the directional scanner
- sending isk
- making or accepting contracts
etc

This way you know when they are afk and when they are trying to kill you. And if they are trying ot kill you, you will have a means to find them if they are not careful (don't reposition after running a few scans).

I'd also make it so that if a ship did not emit any active signals for a long period of time (whether cloaked or not), it disappears from local chat. This way someone that is mining stealthly will not be visible in local chat and it will force any cloaked ship to reveal their presence (by running a scan) if they want to know who is in the system.

Local chat should be a conquerable thing. Whoever has sovereignty of the system should be the admin of the local chat and be able to decide who can talk and who is shown in the list of players.
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
#63 - 2017-07-19 15:50:48 UTC



"Why do I have to increase my efforts simply because you want to be safer in an area of space that is not supposed to be safe to start with."

I don't really care about the safety... I prefer to actually play a MMO with other actual PEOPLE rather than an empty chair. I'm fine with you dropping on me. I enjoy the risk of EVE. I just want the other characters to be PRESENT. I don't think that's a big ask.

"Why do I have to increase my efforts when you cannot or will not put forth the effort to simply move to another system to get away from me?"

What effort? I just want you to be present. Heck, ideally activity in ANY eve window open would satisfy the activity for all. I don't care what you do... I just want to play a game with other players. Not your empty chair. I'm good with both evading droppers and baiting them... but it's freaking annoying to try to do that when there isn't an actual person on the other side.

"How about that trip to relieve oneself, or do you propose the we urinate or defecate into a bottle or pan we keep at our computers simply so we can be there to deal with your auto log off idea?"

First of all... if you take 20 minutes to do your business in the bathroom... you've got other issues. Second... who cares if you get logged off? You just log back in when you come back and cloak up. You weren't going to be able to do anything until you come back from your dump anyway.


"And what about that phone call, you know that one from your mom, sister whatever that keeps you away from the computer listening to all the latest family gossip or other useless crap just long enough to get booted by the log off timer?"

You log back in when you're done. Again... what's the big deal?

"EvE on the other hand has never had an auto log off "feature" so this would represent a major change."

Actually... it current has an automatic logoff. It's called "amount of time until downtime". Our maximum inactive time is 23 hours and change. What I'm suggesting is lowering that maximum time.

"I guess the most important question here is simply this.
Interact to cancel the auto log off or move to another system. Both require about the same amount of effort, as one that is cloaky camping your system and I am active at the keyboard why do I have to deal with this annoying log off timer crap when you can simply move to another system?"

I'd say the most important question is if a MMO should ensure that the other logged in players are actually people you can interact with in the game... or if it's okay with having one side attempt to interact with an empty chair.... which is not exactly interesting game play.

"Here we go with the tired old crap of most games do xxxxx, well EvE is not like "most" games and you better get used to that fact . CCP does not do things like "most " games and no auto log off is one of those things they do differently. "

So... it's a good idea because CCP has always done it that way? That's the argument?

Look... multiplayer games exist in order to allow players to engage in playing with other players. I WANT you to drop on me when I'm ratting. I want you to try to catch me in a trap. I enjoy the feeling I get from escaping or baiting you. And the fact I might not escape adds excitement to my game play. But for that to happen... you have to be PRESENT.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#64 - 2017-07-19 19:00:14 UTC
Scialt wrote:



"Why do I have to increase my efforts simply because you want to be safer in an area of space that is not supposed to be safe to start with."

I don't really care about the safety... I prefer to actually play a MMO with other actual PEOPLE rather than an empty chair. I'm fine with you dropping on me. I enjoy the risk of EVE. I just want the other characters to be PRESENT. I don't think that's a big ask.

"Why do I have to increase my efforts when you cannot or will not put forth the effort to simply move to another system to get away from me?"

What effort? I just want you to be present. Heck, ideally activity in ANY eve window open would satisfy the activity for all. I don't care what you do... I just want to play a game with other players. Not your empty chair. I'm good with both evading droppers and baiting them... but it's freaking annoying to try to do that when there isn't an actual person on the other side.

[snip]


How do you know the chair is empty? It is not uncommon for people to be logged in on multiple accounts. They might be quite active on on account, providing lots of interaction with the client, but on the other...nothing. That other account might be an emergency cyno. It could be an account monitoring a market. It could be a scout logged in and watching for hostile activity. These are all valid and allowed. Why should they be subject to a 20 minute rule because you want to get rid of AFK cloakers?

As for increased effort now the person has to be sure to provide input to those clients. Yes, it sounds trivial, but there will be times when "people in the chair" are logged off because they were busy with another client.

And why are you not posting this in the sticky thread and keeping this thread alive?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
#65 - 2017-07-19 20:44:31 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:


How do you know the chair is empty? It is not uncommon for people to be logged in on multiple accounts. They might be quite active on on account, providing lots of interaction with the client, but on the other...nothing. That other account might be an emergency cyno. It could be an account monitoring a market. It could be a scout logged in and watching for hostile activity. These are all valid and allowed. Why should they be subject to a 20 minute rule because you want to get rid of AFK cloakers?

As for increased effort now the person has to be sure to provide input to those clients. Yes, it sounds trivial, but there will be times when "people in the chair" are logged off because they were busy with another client.

And why are you not posting this in the sticky thread and keeping this thread alive?


Again... I want to ensure the chair is full. I don't know if it's empty or not. But I want to make sure that if I take the time to fit out a bait porpoise to try to lure a cloaked intruder into tackling/dropping on me... I want to have some kind of assurance that there is potential for me to actually get dropped on.

Making sure someone is actually sitting in the chair does that.

I don't want to get rid of AFK cloakers. I want to get rid of all AFK players so I know that the players I see in game are actually present.

As for an accidental logoff... again.. .who cares? They can log back in as soon as they get back to the screen to look at it. You can have a count down that displays (similar to the "safe logoff" option) that occurs if you reach the end of the timer so if they have the screen up for looking at but not interacting they can easily cancel it.

Again... I want to play MMO's with other people... not empty chairs. I don't need an internet connection to play a game with empty chairs.

And as to why I'm posting here... you're asking for responses here. If you don't want a response... don't make a post asking me questions.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#66 - 2017-07-19 21:12:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Scialt wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


How do you know the chair is empty? It is not uncommon for people to be logged in on multiple accounts. They might be quite active on on account, providing lots of interaction with the client, but on the other...nothing. That other account might be an emergency cyno. It could be an account monitoring a market. It could be a scout logged in and watching for hostile activity. These are all valid and allowed. Why should they be subject to a 20 minute rule because you want to get rid of AFK cloakers?

As for increased effort now the person has to be sure to provide input to those clients. Yes, it sounds trivial, but there will be times when "people in the chair" are logged off because they were busy with another client.

And why are you not posting this in the sticky thread and keeping this thread alive?


Again... I want to ensure the chair is full. I don't know if it's empty or not.


So your solution is to log off those chairs that are not empty?

Here is a test I use when discussing game play issues: If you adversely impact those not causing the problem you are trying to address your suggested fix is a bad one.

I suggest your solution is a bad one as it will logoff "chairs that are not empty."

And you know...you can always use the sticky thread like you are supposed too. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#67 - 2017-07-19 21:42:29 UTC
Scialt wrote:
Again... I want to ensure the chair is full. I don't know if it's empty or not. But I want to make sure that if I take the time to fit out a bait porpoise to try to lure a cloaked intruder into tackling/dropping on me... I want to have some kind of assurance that there is potential for me to actually get dropped on.

Making sure someone is actually sitting in the chair does that.

I don't want to get rid of AFK cloakers. I want to get rid of all AFK players so I know that the players I see in game are actually present.

As for an accidental logoff... again.. .who cares? They can log back in as soon as they get back to the screen to look at it. You can have a count down that displays (similar to the "safe logoff" option) that occurs if you reach the end of the timer so if they have the screen up for looking at but not interacting they can easily cancel it.

Again... I want to play MMO's with other people... not empty chairs. I don't need an internet connection to play a game with empty chairs.

And as to why I'm posting here... you're asking for responses here. If you don't want a response... don't make a post asking me questions.


So my character that does nothing but exploration in deep nullsec/WHs and hasn't docked in three months can't log in and just chat with corpmates without being disconnected every 20 minutes?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#68 - 2017-07-19 22:40:52 UTC
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Scialt wrote:
Again... I want to ensure the chair is full. I don't know if it's empty or not. But I want to make sure that if I take the time to fit out a bait porpoise to try to lure a cloaked intruder into tackling/dropping on me... I want to have some kind of assurance that there is potential for me to actually get dropped on.

Making sure someone is actually sitting in the chair does that.

I don't want to get rid of AFK cloakers. I want to get rid of all AFK players so I know that the players I see in game are actually present.

As for an accidental logoff... again.. .who cares? They can log back in as soon as they get back to the screen to look at it. You can have a count down that displays (similar to the "safe logoff" option) that occurs if you reach the end of the timer so if they have the screen up for looking at but not interacting they can easily cancel it.

Again... I want to play MMO's with other people... not empty chairs. I don't need an internet connection to play a game with empty chairs.

And as to why I'm posting here... you're asking for responses here. If you don't want a response... don't make a post asking me questions.


So my character that does nothing but exploration in deep nullsec/WHs and hasn't docked in three months can't log in and just chat with corpmates without being disconnected every 20 minutes?


I believe that chatting via the client is allowed...chatting say via Slack, Trillian, or some other medium while logged in and periodically glancing at your screen for whatever reason is forbidden and you'll be logged off. Just be glad you aren't banned for such corrosive behavior! [/sarcasm]

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
#69 - 2017-07-20 13:51:35 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Scialt wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


How do you know the chair is empty? It is not uncommon for people to be logged in on multiple accounts. They might be quite active on on account, providing lots of interaction with the client, but on the other...nothing. That other account might be an emergency cyno. It could be an account monitoring a market. It could be a scout logged in and watching for hostile activity. These are all valid and allowed. Why should they be subject to a 20 minute rule because you want to get rid of AFK cloakers?

As for increased effort now the person has to be sure to provide input to those clients. Yes, it sounds trivial, but there will be times when "people in the chair" are logged off because they were busy with another client.

And why are you not posting this in the sticky thread and keeping this thread alive?


Again... I want to ensure the chair is full. I don't know if it's empty or not.


So your solution is to log off those chairs that are not empty?

Here is a test I use when discussing game play issues: If you adversely impact those not causing the problem you are trying to address your suggested fix is a bad one.

I suggest your solution is a bad one as it will logoff "chairs that are not empty."

And you know...you can always use the sticky thread like you are supposed too. Roll



No, if the chair is not empty, the person wouldn't be logged off. Your basic idea is this.

You have multiple sessions up. You see the flashing "You are afk and will be logged off in two minutes due to inactivity" message. You hear an audible clue that indicates one of your sessions is about to be logged off. You're still going to do nothing let the session be logged off... and whine about it?

If that's the case... the player's brain being empty is just as much a problem as the chair being empty. They were being told that a session was about to be logged and chose not to do anything. Either that or they didn't notice... which is effectively the SAME as the chair being empty. That session had no human mind doing anything with it or even watching it. It's an empty chair either way.

Why on earth are you so set on being able to stay logged in on an account you are not playing, are not looking and are not even listening for audible alerts from? That session is an empty chair. Log it to use it when you want to... you know... USE IT.

There's no adverse impact. At all. You can still log into an account when you need to use it. And if you're not using it... there's no need to keep it logged in. Nothing is preventing you from using as many accounts as you like... as long as you USE THEM. Your definition of being adversely impacted is incredibly petty.

And if you want to whine about the sticky thread... feel free to reply to me there. I'm responding to your comments. My response is going to go where the comments are made. If you me to quit responding to you here... don't post here. Or quit moaning about the sticky thread if you aren't willing to post your responses there.
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
#70 - 2017-07-20 13:55:25 UTC
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Scialt wrote:
Again... I want to ensure the chair is full. I don't know if it's empty or not. But I want to make sure that if I take the time to fit out a bait porpoise to try to lure a cloaked intruder into tackling/dropping on me... I want to have some kind of assurance that there is potential for me to actually get dropped on.

Making sure someone is actually sitting in the chair does that.

I don't want to get rid of AFK cloakers. I want to get rid of all AFK players so I know that the players I see in game are actually present.

As for an accidental logoff... again.. .who cares? They can log back in as soon as they get back to the screen to look at it. You can have a count down that displays (similar to the "safe logoff" option) that occurs if you reach the end of the timer so if they have the screen up for looking at but not interacting they can easily cancel it.

Again... I want to play MMO's with other people... not empty chairs. I don't need an internet connection to play a game with empty chairs.

And as to why I'm posting here... you're asking for responses here. If you don't want a response... don't make a post asking me questions.


So my character that does nothing but exploration in deep nullsec/WHs and hasn't docked in three months can't log in and just chat with corpmates without being disconnected every 20 minutes?


Chatting is activity.

Clicking on the screen without actually doing anything is activity.

Moving your mouse while the window is active is activity.

Putting your screen in the background and never interacting with the client after log on... is not.

If you aren't actually going to interact with the game client and just want to chat with corpmates in slack or discord or TS... why log into the game? You aren't playing it.

If you're messing with skill queues, using chat windows or doing literally ANYTHING that requires the client to be open... you're active.

This is pretty common in how MMO's work so you don't see a thousand "statues" in the game.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#71 - 2017-07-20 14:53:32 UTC
Scialt wrote:
No, if the chair is not empty, the person wouldn't be logged off.

Must be nice to live such a simple life in EvE that running afoul of an auto log off timer will never be an issue, unfortunately that is not the so for all of us.

One last go at getting you to understand.
On another character I am a logi pilot for a low sec corp besides tracking my own fleet and their need for reps I have other duties that include but are not limited too

Watching for opposing fleet members that warp out, the general direction they warped too and then passing that information and the character name to our scouts so they can start the search for them.

Keeping track of the opposing fleets ships that have been killed by type and by character that was flying them and relying that info to the FC when they ask for it.

Watching the immediate battle area for ships that may have slipped past the scouts usually but not always these are ships that were cloaked when they came in.

And the list goes on.
All of this adds up to the simple reality that it may be 20 - 30 minutes or more between chances to interact with that emergency cyno character sitting cloaked up somewhere. And yet even though I am sitting in my chair and extremely active in game, myself and my corp mates have to risk loss of ships because of your idiotic auto log off timer? Just go away with this idea it has no place here in EvE.
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
#72 - 2017-07-20 15:33:02 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Scialt wrote:
No, if the chair is not empty, the person wouldn't be logged off.

Must be nice to live such a simple life in EvE that running afoul of an auto log off timer will never be an issue, unfortunately that is not the so for all of us.

One last go at getting you to understand.
On another character I am a logi pilot for a low sec corp besides tracking my own fleet and their need for reps I have other duties that include but are not limited too

Watching for opposing fleet members that warp out, the general direction they warped too and then passing that information and the character name to our scouts so they can start the search for them.

Keeping track of the opposing fleets ships that have been killed by type and by character that was flying them and relying that info to the FC when they ask for it.

Watching the immediate battle area for ships that may have slipped past the scouts usually but not always these are ships that were cloaked when they came in.

And the list goes on.
All of this adds up to the simple reality that it may be 20 - 30 minutes or more between chances to interact with that emergency cyno character sitting cloaked up somewhere. And yet even though I am sitting in my chair and extremely active in game, myself and my corp mates have to risk loss of ships because of your idiotic auto log off timer? Just go away with this idea it has no place here in EvE.


So... your entire argument is now limited to....

an emergency cyno character.

So let's delve into that.

You have an account that is not being used that you want to be sitting in space and it's too much work for you to simply click on the window or alt-tab over to the client for that character once in a 20 minute window to keep it from logging off.

You honestly don't have time for a single click in 20 minutes? Whining about having to click a window once every 20 minutes frankly sounds weaker than whining about wanting to ensure that actual players are present when you see a character in game.

I will say that my fleet combat experience doesn't reach the larger TiDi fights... but most of mine have a pretty meaningful amount of downtime, regardless of if I'm running logistics, scouting or flying a main-line ship. I mostly use my second account to have something to do during those downtimes. I can't think of a time where I didn't click over to that screen over a 20 minute period. If I have time to click over and adjust market entries while in a small 10-man fleet, I assume that the larger slower moving fleets would have even more time to kill.

It literally takes less than a second to alt-tab to your other account, click the chat window and alt-tab back.



Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#73 - 2017-07-20 15:40:01 UTC
Scialt wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Scialt wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


How do you know the chair is empty? It is not uncommon for people to be logged in on multiple accounts. They might be quite active on on account, providing lots of interaction with the client, but on the other...nothing. That other account might be an emergency cyno. It could be an account monitoring a market. It could be a scout logged in and watching for hostile activity. These are all valid and allowed. Why should they be subject to a 20 minute rule because you want to get rid of AFK cloakers?

As for increased effort now the person has to be sure to provide input to those clients. Yes, it sounds trivial, but there will be times when "people in the chair" are logged off because they were busy with another client.

And why are you not posting this in the sticky thread and keeping this thread alive?


Again... I want to ensure the chair is full. I don't know if it's empty or not.


So your solution is to log off those chairs that are not empty?

Here is a test I use when discussing game play issues: If you adversely impact those not causing the problem you are trying to address your suggested fix is a bad one.

I suggest your solution is a bad one as it will logoff "chairs that are not empty."

And you know...you can always use the sticky thread like you are supposed too. Roll



No, if the chair is not empty, the person wouldn't be logged off. Your basic idea is this.

You have multiple sessions up. You see the flashing "You are afk and will be logged off in two minutes due to inactivity" message. You hear an audible clue that indicates one of your sessions is about to be logged off. You're still going to do nothing let the session be logged off... and whine about it?

If that's the case... the player's brain being empty is just as much a problem as the chair being empty. They were being told that a session was about to be logged and chose not to do anything. Either that or they didn't notice... which is effectively the SAME as the chair being empty. That session had no human mind doing anything with it or even watching it. It's an empty chair either way.

Why on earth are you so set on being able to stay logged in on an account you are not playing, are not looking and are not even listening for audible alerts from? That session is an empty chair. Log it to use it when you want to... you know... USE IT.

There's no adverse impact. At all. You can still log into an account when you need to use it. And if you're not using it... there's no need to keep it logged in. Nothing is preventing you from using as many accounts as you like... as long as you USE THEM. Your definition of being adversely impacted is incredibly petty.

And if you want to whine about the sticky thread... feel free to reply to me there. I'm responding to your comments. My response is going to go where the comments are made. If you me to quit responding to you here... don't post here. Or quit moaning about the sticky thread if you aren't willing to post your responses there.


I have 3 accounts. I often run all three at the same time. I have 2 monitors, inevitably that means one of them will "underneath" one of the other two sessions.

So yes, you will log out non-empty chairs with this "solution".

And frankly, I find it just silly to log out people who are not ATK simply because it somehow causes you some sort of mental angst that somebody may not be sitting in their chair at that precise moment you want to interact with them. As I noted before, being logged in is not even necessary to have an impact on the game...why should be logged in and AFK be a big deal?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#74 - 2017-07-20 15:46:53 UTC
Scialt wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
Scialt wrote:
No, if the chair is not empty, the person wouldn't be logged off.

Must be nice to live such a simple life in EvE that running afoul of an auto log off timer will never be an issue, unfortunately that is not the so for all of us.

One last go at getting you to understand.
On another character I am a logi pilot for a low sec corp besides tracking my own fleet and their need for reps I have other duties that include but are not limited too

Watching for opposing fleet members that warp out, the general direction they warped too and then passing that information and the character name to our scouts so they can start the search for them.

Keeping track of the opposing fleets ships that have been killed by type and by character that was flying them and relying that info to the FC when they ask for it.

Watching the immediate battle area for ships that may have slipped past the scouts usually but not always these are ships that were cloaked when they came in.

And the list goes on.
All of this adds up to the simple reality that it may be 20 - 30 minutes or more between chances to interact with that emergency cyno character sitting cloaked up somewhere. And yet even though I am sitting in my chair and extremely active in game, myself and my corp mates have to risk loss of ships because of your idiotic auto log off timer? Just go away with this idea it has no place here in EvE.


So... your entire argument is now limited to....

an emergency cyno character.

So let's delve into that.

You have an account that is not being used that you want to be sitting in space and it's too much work for you to simply click on the window or alt-tab over to the client for that character once in a 20 minute window to keep it from logging off.

You honestly don't have time for a single click in 20 minutes? Whining about having to click a window once every 20 minutes frankly sounds weaker than whining about wanting to ensure that actual players are present when you see a character in game.

I will say that my fleet combat experience doesn't reach the larger TiDi fights... but most of mine have a pretty meaningful amount of downtime, regardless of if I'm running logistics, scouting or flying a main-line ship. I mostly use my second account to have something to do during those downtimes. I can't think of a time where I didn't click over to that screen over a 20 minute period. If I have time to click over and adjust market entries while in a small 10-man fleet, I assume that the larger slower moving fleets would have even more time to kill.

It literally takes less than a second to alt-tab to your other account, click the chat window and alt-tab back.



Or watching the market. Last night I had a character logged in and I'd put up buy orders. I was reading and writing some stuff in another window and periodically looked over. Generally my attention was focused on what I was reading and writing though. Could have been logged off? Yup. Would it be critical? No. Would it be annoying? Yes. Is this a good change? Not in this case.

How about using an alt cloaked watching over a station for hostile activity...same thing. Attention might be focused elsewhere. Would it be critical if such a character was logged out? Quite possibly. Would it be annoying, fook yeah.

You have tried to cover the cyno alt, but you assume that one's attention will not be "captured" at a critical moment. Again having such a character logged out could be of critical importance and all to make you feel better about playing the game. Imposing a cost on other players for your benefit is not really good game design. Such a thing should be eschewed as much as possible.

These are just some examples I have come up with. Might there be others? Sure. My failure to find all examples of where this would impose a cost on others does not mean they do not exist (doesn't mean they do either). But you have made zero effort to think of your own examples and want to dismiss examples with a casual handwave.

Sorry, your idea is bad, your attempt to support it is bad.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#75 - 2017-07-20 15:50:11 UTC
I also have to ask what is gained here? Nothing really.

Suppose I am logged in and AFK, can you interact with me or I with you? No.

Suppose I am auto logged off, can you interact with me or I with you? No.

At best you can say that, there is a higher proportion of players logged in who are not AFK. But you can interact with them already. So again...nothing is gained unless you are trying to interact with random players this will likely have little to any impact on how people play the game.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#76 - 2017-07-20 15:54:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Scialt wrote:


Putting your screen in the background and never interacting with the client after log on... is not.


How nice of you to define activity to support your position.

I submit that sitting in my chair, chatting with others via trillian and periodically glancing at my client to see if a market order is completed is activity. Considering that poeple not logged in can influence the game, at least in a small way, allowing people to be logged in and not interacting with the client at a frequency you deem appropriate is not your call to make.

Stop trying to micro-manage other people's time in game. If somebody needs to wait out a jump fatigue timer and they want to go AFK, that is not a big deal. Logging them off to suit your pleasure when you might be on the other side of the map or may never ever interact with them anyways is just foolishness.

Edit: I will also note: It is nice to see you finally admit you'll log off non-empty chairs. Of course it would have been nice if you simply admitted this up front. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
#77 - 2017-07-20 17:57:22 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Scialt wrote:


Putting your screen in the background and never interacting with the client after log on... is not.


How nice of you to define activity to support your position.

I submit that sitting in my chair, chatting with others via trillian and periodically glancing at my client to see if a market order is completed is activity. Considering that poeple logged in can influence the game, at least in a small way, allowing people to be logged in and not interacting with the client at a frequency you deem appropriate is not your call to make.

Stop trying to micro-manage other people's time in game. If somebody needs to wait out a jump fatigue timer and they want to go AFK, that is not a big deal. Logging them off to suit your pleasure when you might be on the other side of the map or may never ever interact with them anyways is just foolishness.

Edit: I will also note: It is nice to see you finally admit you'll log off non-empty chairs. Of course it would have been nice if you simply admitted this up front. Roll


It's not activity.

Activity means taking an action. So to be active in a game means to take action in the game. This isn't some odd personal definition... it's what the word means. If you take no action in the client... you are not active in the game... and thus are not showing activity. Yes... I might be active in real life... but I'm not in the game.... because I've taken NO ACTIONS IN THE GAME. Brushing my teeth is an activity... but not in the game.

Are you really not able to understand this? Or are you just trying to parse words to avoid the actual topic?

As for the rest of your rather comical defense of "playing a game without actually playing"... I just can't comprehend that concept. I can't see how a logged in account that you never click on and can't be bothered to click on if a message pops up about being logged off for lack of activity is anything other than an "empty chair". It behaves the exact same way an empty chair would if it were running the eve client.

Again... for me a multiple player game must have an actual player involved... not an empty chair (or a player who is sitting in the chair but refuses to hit their keyboard or move the mouse or in any way interact with the client).
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
#78 - 2017-07-20 17:59:02 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
I also have to ask what is gained here? Nothing really.

Suppose I am logged in and AFK, can you interact with me or I with you? No.

Suppose I am auto logged off, can you interact with me or I with you? No.

At best you can say that, there is a higher proportion of players logged in who are not AFK. But you can interact with them already. So again...nothing is gained unless you are trying to interact with random players this will likely have little to any impact on how people play the game.



It saves me the time from TRYING to interact with you but having no actual chance of interaction because you are AFK.

I like trying bait a cloaked dropper. I do not like wasting hours of effort trying to bait an empty chair.
Li Soikutsu
Vorticon Corporation
#79 - 2017-07-20 20:25:13 UTC
Time to fix this nonsense already ....

just check how much the threat has been viewed should be a clear sign it's a problem..
No matter what arguments you make having influence in a MMO while being AFK should never be possible.

In activity timer for X amount of time before save log off............ problem fixed.

YOU ARE WELCOME Blink
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#80 - 2017-07-20 20:36:36 UTC
Scialt wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
I also have to ask what is gained here? Nothing really.

Suppose I am logged in and AFK, can you interact with me or I with you? No.

Suppose I am auto logged off, can you interact with me or I with you? No.

At best you can say that, there is a higher proportion of players logged in who are not AFK. But you can interact with them already. So again...nothing is gained unless you are trying to interact with random players this will likely have little to any impact on how people play the game.



It saves me the time from TRYING to interact with you but having no actual chance of interaction because you are AFK.

I like trying bait a cloaked dropper. I do not like wasting hours of effort trying to bait an empty chair.


Either way you gain information...so what...you should have things made easier for you?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online