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Solution to AFK Cloakers?

First post
Author
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#121 - 2017-07-23 23:57:57 UTC
ImYourMom wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
The load put on the server by afk players is negligible. Like almost nothing.

Greylord, what you think is griefing, is not griefing. Just like ganking is not griefing. No it wasn't intended, but neither was the use of local as intel. DUM DUM DUM!!!


I disgaree its griefing to an extent. the issue isnt having an afk cloaker per say, the issue is not being able to do a single thing about it. A person can be cloaked in a system for weeks and weeks


So what that is not griefing, harassment or anything else. You think you are the first one to notice AFK cloaking. It is as old as cloaks themselves. CCP could have patched this out a long, long time ago, but they chose not too.

Quote:
He isnt the problem as such, but the fact is the metagame, the psychological effect, the what if scenario.

In a covert he can be warping about unseen
He will hard to pin down via probes, because he can always move and cloak in a new spot in the system
being able to have a cyno, that can jump in 50 caps or sub caps instantly is the problem


This is laughable for a number of reasons.

First this psychological metagame is something CCP actually likes to see develop in the game. CCP did not set out to create a cookie cutter MMO where everyone can log in and ignore other players all the time (Cue Mike's nonsense at this point--but then again Mike has issues with words like 'all'...anything over two letters really). The metagame is a huge part of EVE Online and what makes what is fundamentally a boring game so interesting.

Second, even after cynos and jump drives were seriously nerfed quite awhile ago we get the same old whine and dine from the likes of you. "Oh boo-hoo, cynos, cynos, cynos. CCPlease nerf!!!" So they get nerfed (for other reasons) and yet here you are again with "One more nerf and it will be balanced."

Quote:
You cant expect people to live with that, youre never going to undock anything because of the above points. You cant expect people to have a cap fleet on stand by 24/7 365 days its just stupid to think that and even expect it.


Wrong, I have undocked and ratted with an AFK cloaker back when we lived in Cloud Ring when I was in EXE. We had, literally, one good ratting system. We had just gone down into Outer Ring and pooped on his alliance's front yard to try and get some content. This one guy responded by camping out one decent ratting system. Thing is I was in a very different TZ than him. I looked him and his corp up. So I'd go there and rat away quite confident he was unlikely at his keyboard.

Why can't you guys undock as a group and do stuff? Why can't you rat in a standing fleet, on voice comms, or even in the same group in the same anomaly? Yes, your ISK/minute or whatever will take a hit, but you are still make ISK, still doing stuff, chatting on comms, and keeping your indexes up. And hey, if they drop on you and you have PvP fit ships you may get some really good content. Why can't you do this?

Quote:
Also if you have a standby fleet then theres prob spy intel knowing what you have, so it can be easily countered, or your 5 man gang is puny enough anyway for 50 ships to jump through. This the problem regarding afk cloaking. The entire thing is completely and utterley one side because you will never know whats coming.


Why do you always assume you are going to lose. Are you just that bad? Do you suck that much at this game? seems like you do as that is what you are basically saying here. "We suck so badly we can't even deal with a handful of guys who might cyno in, but probably won't...so CCP come pat our poo-poo and make us feel better about our incompetent selves." You do realize that is what you just wrote, right? You are basically admitting to being Bad™.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#122 - 2017-07-24 00:54:52 UTC
I don't think he pvp's. Like at all. I'm guessing he falls into the group that surrendermonkey was hinting at before. Plays by himself as a renter or something like that. Same with scialt and li Soikutsu.

I imagine thats why standing up to cloakers is unrealistic. No experience, no allies, no communication with the rest of their block. Just trying to 'get on with the game'.

But playing in the most hardcore pvp area of an already hardcore pvp centric game was a poor choice.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Black Pedro
Mine.
#123 - 2017-07-24 07:23:55 UTC
Chance Ravine (reporting on EVE Northeast last weekend) wrote:
Someone asked when cloaky camping would get nerfed. Fozzie said that cloaking as a whole would not get nerfed unless local as a whole also got reworked. He said the systems are too intertwined to touch one without the other.


I guess we can let this thread die then and revisit it at a future time when there is an opportunity for local to be changed?
ImYourMom
Retribution Holdings Corp
Retribution.
#124 - 2017-07-24 10:13:34 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
I don't think he pvp's. Like at all. I'm guessing he falls into the group that surrendermonkey was hinting at before. Plays by himself as a renter or something like that. Same with scialt and li Soikutsu.

I imagine thats why standing up to cloakers is unrealistic. No experience, no allies, no communication with the rest of their block. Just trying to 'get on with the game'.

But playing in the most hardcore pvp area of an already hardcore pvp centric game was a poor choice.



hang on, dont start with making this about me OK. Firstly there are 100s of people not happy with it. OK?

this was just a general suggestion to do something, so stpo making blind childish comments and assumptions.

You clearly are one of those sad cloaky campers that will cry like a baby if you sad lives get taken away... please go cry elsewhere because im really not interested, honestly im not.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#125 - 2017-07-24 13:03:26 UTC
The hypocrisy in that post. I don't cloaky camp. I don't gank either but see what i think about that. I don't wardec either and see how i feel about that...

And hundreds of people fall into the category of 'lone renter who does not pvp and feel the game should change so they can print isk risk free'. Doesn't mean they should get it.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
#126 - 2017-07-24 13:06:02 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Scialt wrote:
But I have no chance because you're too busy chatting with your mom to freaking click on your client once ever 20 minutes.

I'm glad you're chatting with your mom. Log off first so I'm not wasting my time trying to interact with an empty chair.

I tire of people like you, people that are so desperate to prove a point that you will twist the words of others to suit your agenda. The record as witnessed by this thread will prove that I never said I was reading this AND playing EvE and that is good enough for me.
However since you have now proven that you are at the point where you are willing to purposely twist others words I am done with this discussion and as my parting words I leave these things.

Auto log off timers are idiotic and should be removed from ALL computer games.

If I want to spend my money to pay for a game I should be able to sit and do NOTHING if that is what I choose to do.

If my sitting logged into a game doing nothing bothers or offends you that is your problem not mine or the game companies.

The very nature of EvE as a single thread, persistent simulation of what our futures might hold would be harmed irreparably with the addition of auto log off timers and I for one hope that CCP continues to resist call from people like you to add them.

As others have stated because of the free intel local offers (knowing who is in system with you) and AFK cloaking is the only partial counter we have to that free intel then AFK cloaking needs to stay in the game. See next please they are related.

Auto log off timers would remove about 90% of the effectiveness of cloaky camping, and given that cloaky camping is the only counter we have to the free intel offered by local auto log off timers would be a really bad thing for EvE.

And last.
The mental anguish, stess and hassles that AFK cloaky campers cause to pampered and entitled nul sec players like you OP are perhaps the very best reason to leave the out of the game.


I have to laugh at the bolded part.

So you think a good simulation of a future where people aren't actually paying attention... to... their... actual... bodies?

Ooookaaayyyy....

Look, it's a game. It's a game designed around interaction between multiple players. In order for that interaction to happen... players need to be present... not away from their keyboard.

I want cloaked droppers to scout out my ratting or mining ship and determine if I'm bait or not. My entire goal from this is to actually promote interaction. The only thing I'm asking is that you actually be present at your keyboard... so my tasty bait has a chance of being bitten.

I'm sorry... I think that an actual PLAYER should be required for a Massively Multi-PLAYER game. You seem to want to have one where the "player" part is optional. I think that is a immensely stupid opinion.
Scialt
Universal Sanitation Corporation
#127 - 2017-07-24 13:11:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Scialt
Daichi Yamato wrote:
I don't think he pvp's. Like at all. I'm guessing he falls into the group that surrendermonkey was hinting at before. Plays by himself as a renter or something like that. Same with scialt and li Soikutsu.

I imagine thats why standing up to cloakers is unrealistic. No experience, no allies, no communication with the rest of their block. Just trying to 'get on with the game'.

But playing in the most hardcore pvp area of an already hardcore pvp centric game was a poor choice.


I'm not sure you are understanding what I'm asking for.

It's a PvP area. I'm present... I'm the fist "Player" in PvP. What I'm asking is that the other person also be present. What we're getting now is a lot of PvEC (player vs empty chair). They don't have to take the bait. They can passively watch local while active watching a movie... just clicking on the screen every few minutes. But I want them to at least be there for my attempts at interaction to have some chance of success. I got no shot with an empty chair.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#128 - 2017-07-24 13:28:46 UTC
Is dishonest. You're not bothered about the empty chair, no one is. You're just using that as a thin disguise because you're actually very terrified of the chair being occupied.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#129 - 2017-07-24 19:34:02 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Chance Ravine (reporting on EVE Northeast last weekend) wrote:
Someone asked when cloaky camping would get nerfed. Fozzie said that cloaking as a whole would not get nerfed unless local as a whole also got reworked. He said the systems are too intertwined to touch one without the other.


I guess we can let this thread die then and revisit it at a future time when there is an opportunity for local to be changed?



Awesome!

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#130 - 2017-07-24 20:02:01 UTC
Which just proves what I said all along.

Hiring devs from the ranks of people like Fozzie was a bad idea. When your devs are all mouth breathing baby eaters who condone and enjoy predatory behavior, that's all the game will ever be.

Which is sad. So many came here for other things that were promised, and then never actually developed.

They may as well just remove all of industry and provide all the ships for free, and turn the game into Battlefield in spacs.
Greylord Kane
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#131 - 2017-07-24 20:05:56 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
The load put on the server by afk players is negligible. Like almost nothing.

Greylord, what you think is griefing, is not griefing. Just like ganking is not griefing. No it wasn't intended, but neither was the use of local as intel. DUM DUM DUM!!!



Ganking is active.. Cloaking and hot dropping active....AFK logged on all day is not-active but done to purposely grief a system.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#132 - 2017-07-24 20:18:56 UTC
Its not griefing a system. They are hunting players.

You don't know what griefing really is. Active or not active is irrelevant. Just drop it already.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#133 - 2017-07-24 20:20:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
ImYourMom wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
I don't think he pvp's. Like at all. I'm guessing he falls into the group that surrendermonkey was hinting at before. Plays by himself as a renter or something like that. Same with scialt and li Soikutsu.

I imagine thats why standing up to cloakers is unrealistic. No experience, no allies, no communication with the rest of their block. Just trying to 'get on with the game'.

But playing in the most hardcore pvp area of an already hardcore pvp centric game was a poor choice.



hang on, dont start with making this about me OK. Firstly there are 100s of people not happy with it. OK?

this was just a general suggestion to do something, so stpo making blind childish comments and assumptions.

You clearly are one of those sad cloaky campers that will cry like a baby if you sad lives get taken away... please go cry elsewhere because im really not interested, honestly im not.


I have no problem with people who do not want to PvP. If that is not what you want to do, fine. Although it is ironic that you get upset when people talk about how you want to play, yet you act like such a little turd when talking about others.

However, do not come in and lecture and hector where PvE and PvP intersect. I have gotten on Mike's case because he has never used a cloak to hunt another player. Ever. As such, his comments about it are bereft of practical hands on knowledge.

For example, Mike is fond of saying that the cloaker has the advantage of initiative. That is true to some extent. I can decide when to engage...when a target is available. What Mike does not talk about, either due to ignorance or because he knows it will undermine his case, is that the target is not just some helpless player all fat and dumb. The player has local to warn him of my presence and he can warp out. In other words, it can take 20 or 30 tries before finding somebody who is simply not paying attention to local until it is too late. It is a classic case of the seen and the unseen. Everybody sees the poor schlub who screwed up and was caught and killed. What they do not see are the 25 guys before that who either got away, or docked up 30 seconds after a hostile enters system.

It is usually at this point that Mike will make an appearance, so let me pre-empt him. “Working as intended!!! Working as intended!!!1!!1!!one!!” Let’s set aside the entire possibility that this was not intended—i.e. the use of local as an intel tool. I think it was not intended, but as I noted before, what CCP intends…or not is not really an issue unless it is an issue for overall game balance. Let us instead agree that it is working as it should given the underlying mechanics. So in that regards I agree with Mike. If you are paying attention and see the hostile enter system and scurry for safety…okay, that is as it should currently be. However, there should abso-fecking-lutely be no Goddamn fecking extra protection for the little dim bulb who is completely focused on re-watching season 6 of Game of Thrones while his ishtar cleans out another haven.

The anti-cloak people might say, “I’m not wanting extra protection for that guy!” But you almost always are. Many of the “suggestions to deal with AFK cloakers” inevitable NERF CLOAKS IN GENERAL. The cloaking fuel, the cap drain, the POS/citadel decloaking module, the anchorable structure, and on and on and on. None of these things give a mother fecking shite if the fecking cloaked ship is AFK or not. Why should an ATK cloaky hunter be nerfed? He is not AFKing. Why should a player doing exploration in a cloaking ship have his game nerfed? How about a guy using a blockade runner, people don’t usually AFK in those. And all of these “suggestions” (personally, I’d call most of these “suggestions” the mumblings of morons into their drool cups) are never accompanied with any change to the mechanic that allows for AFK camping to be so damn effective. Local.

And look, you started yet another thread that has been discussed multiple times. You are in effect mumbling into your drool cup.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Greylord Kane
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#134 - 2017-07-24 20:32:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Greylord Kane
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Its not griefing a system. They are hunting players.

You don't know what griefing really is. Active or not active is irrelevant. Just drop it already.




Let me define griefing for you just so you have it, "A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and angers other players within the game, often using aspects of the game in unintended ways..:

So you are telling me the CCP intended for people to log on to their computers just after downtime and just leave a character logged in all day without being by their keyboard...really? Really? Please spare me the humor.


VERY VERY Relevant by the way..maybe not to you but many others yes.
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#135 - 2017-07-24 22:05:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Sonya Corvinus
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Which just proves what I said all along.

Hiring devs from the ranks of people like Fozzie was a bad idea. When your devs are all mouth breathing baby eaters who condone and enjoy predatory behavior, that's all the game will ever be.

Which is sad. So many came here for other things that were promised, and then never actually developed.

They may as well just remove all of industry and provide all the ships for free, and turn the game into Battlefield in spacs.


Did...did you really just use the term "mouth breathing baby eaters" and expect to be taken seriously?

You sound like a 15 year old throwing a tantrum.

Quote where it was said you could do industry and ratting in deep null with zero consequences.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#136 - 2017-07-24 23:08:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Greylord Kane wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Its not griefing a system. They are hunting players.

You don't know what griefing really is. Active or not active is irrelevant. Just drop it already.




Let me define griefing for you just so you have it, "A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and angers other players within the game, often using aspects of the game in unintended ways..:

So you are telling me the CCP intended for people to log on to their computers just after downtime and just leave a character logged in all day without being by their keyboard...really? Really? Please spare me the humor.


VERY VERY Relevant by the way..maybe not to you but many others yes.


That is not the definition in EVE because that would include much of PvP in this game. So try again.

Oh, and using things in game in an unintended manner...that too is not a bug, but a feature in EVE...so you fail for two reasons.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#137 - 2017-07-25 00:15:13 UTC
Greylord Kane wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Its not griefing a system. They are hunting players.

You don't know what griefing really is. Active or not active is irrelevant. Just drop it already.




Let me define griefing for you just so you have it, "A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and angers other players within the game, often using aspects of the game in unintended ways..:

So you are telling me the CCP intended for people to log on to their computers just after downtime and just leave a character logged in all day without being by their keyboard...really? Really? Please spare me the humor.


VERY VERY Relevant by the way..maybe not to you but many others yes.


That's not griefing in eve dumb ass.

In the VERY ARTICLE you're quoting it says:

Quote:
Space sims like Eve Online and Elite: Dangerous have incorporated activities typically considered griefing as part of the gameplay mechanism.


And its funny you've left 'active' and 'not active' out this time Lol. In eve players are free to use mechanics in ways they were not intended to be used. If ccp deem it detrimental to the game it becomes an exploit. If they dont, it doesn't and it becomes normal gameplay. What you, or anyone else other than ccp,think is griefing is irrelevant.

By that definition ganking, wardeccing and even using warp stabs in fw would be considered griefing.

Just another carebear that doesn't know his arse from his elbow.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Greylord Kane
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2017-07-25 01:42:38 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Greylord Kane wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Its not griefing a system. They are hunting players.

You don't know what griefing really is. Active or not active is irrelevant. Just drop it already.




Let me define griefing for you just so you have it, "A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and angers other players within the game, often using aspects of the game in unintended ways..:

So you are telling me the CCP intended for people to log on to their computers just after downtime and just leave a character logged in all day without being by their keyboard...really? Really? Please spare me the humor.


VERY VERY Relevant by the way..maybe not to you but many others yes.


That's not griefing in eve dumb ass.

In the VERY ARTICLE you're quoting it says:

Quote:
Space sims like Eve Online and Elite: Dangerous have incorporated activities typically considered griefing as part of the gameplay mechanism.


And its funny you've left 'active' and 'not active' out this time Lol. In eve players are free to use mechanics in ways they were not intended to be used. If ccp deem it detrimental to the game it becomes an exploit. If they dont, it doesn't and it becomes normal gameplay. What you, or anyone else other than ccp,think is griefing is irrelevant.

By that definition ganking, wardeccing and even using warp stabs in fw would be considered griefing.

Just another carebear that doesn't know his arse from his elbow.



Nice opinion and good try by twisting facts. It was not an article I got that simply fro Wiki. funny MANY games are addressing AFK issues........... Trying justify definitions to fit your needs...classy. I again like I stated MANY times before am for cloaking, bombing runs, hot dropping, those types of active activities, just not being AFK.

What purpose does being AFK all day serve?
If you say AFK doesn't hurt anyone well then you'll need to answer to the countless people leaving paid accounts and the game over it. (FACT). If you say it does serve a purpose than I am correct that it is being misused for a scare tactic / griefing a system (Which people are doing in game). Remember I am talking about someone who logs on and leave his character on all day. sigh newbs. I'm sure you'll come up with some witty way to twist that again and say those people just need to leave then...lol and it will just go on and on. At some point CCP will notice
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#139 - 2017-07-25 01:43:44 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:


It is usually at this point that Mike will make an appearance, so let me pre-empt him. “Working as intended!!! Working as intended!!!1!!1!!one!!” Let’s set aside the entire possibility that this was not intended—i.e. the use of local as an intel tool. I think it was not intended, but as I noted before, what CCP intends…or not is not really an issue unless it is an issue for overall game balance. Let us instead agree that it is working as it should given the underlying mechanics. So in that regards I agree with Mike. If you are paying attention and see the hostile enter system and scurry for safety…okay, that is as it should currently be. However, there should abso-fecking-lutely be no Goddamn fecking extra protection for the little dim bulb who is completely focused on re-watching season 6 of Game of Thrones while his ishtar cleans out another haven.




If that was the case, that guy isn't watching local, and you should be able to kill him easily. It's not like local actually does anything to protect you. You have to actively watch local and take action to get to safety.

I know that's hard for you to understand, as you seem to think everyone is completely safe for as long as they want... kinda like how cloaks work.

I don't know what all that working as intended drek is about. Both systems work pretty much as designed. The issue being that you are complaining that you don't get enough kills while breaking the defensive efforts of entire alliances with a spare alt potentially flying a newbie ship, and you want extra credit for the "gargantuan" ""effort"" of showing up in a system.
Johnny Blueyes
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#140 - 2017-07-25 04:57:17 UTC
I seem to remember we got rid of off-grid boosting because "no counter play" griping from the PVPers. But talk about dealing with some afk camping issues with no counter play and they crap themselves.

If we're going to allow cloaky camping, then we should allow off-grid mining boosts. No risk, no risk.

I hear a lot of "get a fleet together" nonsense in these threads. When you have a Goonswarm player camping two of your small alliance's systems with cloaky cyno bombers, dropping anywhere from 10-20 Blops/Lokis against your 30-40 online members (including alts) and the hunters roam the systems once in a while, and just bridges himself back in when your alliance kills him, where's the counterplay? And, we know they are willing to bring caps, so bringing bigger stuff isn't an option. So we should just lay down and take it is apparently the consensus from the afk camping lovers.

We tried denying kills, we've killed the camper multiple times, we've tried just about everything at this point that we are capable of managing, and this camper has sat here for 2 months now. Dude logs in a few hours after downtime during the week, stays on until downtime. On weekends, logs in after downtime and is on all day. How in the hell can that possibly be intended game play?

It's one thing if it's a situation like a hunter ACTUALLY hunting, roaming through an area looking for kills with a blops fleet waiting to pounce. To be honest, I have no problems with that AT ALL. But cloaky afk camping has absolutely no counter play, since you can form up and wait all day for something to happen, or just try to play as normal but you can't. When you have a monster group like Goons hitting a tiny alliance like mine, camping for months on end bringing overwhelming numbers no matter what we try, there's no counter play. While a large alliance SHOULD have the ability to easily overpower a small alliance, the issue is afk cloaky camping. I don't even have an issue with active cloaky camping, but afk cloaky camping is ridiculous.

The "get gud" argument is coming from players who operate in large groups, like they are somehow good themselves lol. For small groups, it's not about getting "gud"