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Where did the fun go?

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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#181 - 2017-02-09 16:25:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
I'm going to leave this link here for the non native users of English.
Censor != Censure.

ISDs censor, players censure.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#182 - 2017-02-09 16:57:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
Kaleb Mynwarra wrote:

In my view the power of a "thumbs down" vote is on par with a "thumbs up" vote. One could conceive that either one could be flooded with votes for a multidied of causes, to include things like multi boxed / multi account voting. It's very probable that it's already happened here with just the "thumbs up " vote. Up or down the votes should be taken with a grain of salt. With that we shouldn't promote the idea that those votes should influence thread popularity. If for no other reason that there's the possibility that enough egregious votes could mar any honest assessment.


No one really cares for likes, people have lived without them for so long. But people care for dislikes. Especially if you can bury someones post under them. And while the likes is a fun part, unlike is in a no-fun zone. Truth, if it hurts with raw logic, unpopular, but sound propositions, all may not be so popular under those conditions.

ᴇᴠᴇʀʏ ᴘᴀʀᴛ ᴏғ ᴀ ɢᴀᴍᴇ ʜᴇʟᴘs ᴛᴏ ᴛᴇʟʟ ᴀ sᴛᴏʀʏ 📕

ᴡʜᴇʀᴇ ɪs ᴀɴɢʀʏ ᴄᴏɴᴄᴏʀᴅ ɢᴜʏ ᴡʜᴇɴ ʏᴏᴜ ɴᴇᴇᴅ ʜɪᴍ

ᴏsᴘʀᴇʏ 🚀

≡⋁≡ ♥
mkint
#183 - 2017-02-09 17:07:23 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
mkint wrote:
The current forums use censoring by ISDs and GMs. It's obviously not good enough, otherwise this thread wouldn't exist.


Why shouldnt this thread exist?
OP was entirely valid.

You are hypocritical.
You state that censorship should be at a MINIMUM, yet you simultaneously claim that censuring here is NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

mkint wrote:
No, you wouldn't get censored under a reddit-like voting system, it's designed to minimize censorship. You would get censured. Difference is censorship is because people don't like your message. Censure is because people don't like YOU. And that's actually a far better thing that what we have.


By your own admission above, you think this thread should not exist!
Yet here you are, posting in it! The hypocrisy is astounding.

Furthermore compounded by your claim by extension that this thread would NOT exist on Reddit, which means Reddit does not minimize censorship, it MAXIMIZES it, by mob bias, rather than impartial moderation and shared rules.

How can you not understand this?

mkint wrote:
Censure is because people don't like YOU. And that's actually a far better thing that what we have.


Unbelievable.
So you think censure should be based on LIKING someone?

mkint wrote:
And here's why you are bad at the internet: Nobody has EVER "won" an argument on the internet. Ever. The best you can do is make yourself look like a jackass. Even moreso when you think you've "won" an argument online. To argue otherwise is true just reveals yourself as a lizard person wearing a skin suit. An upvote/downvote system doesn't make anyone "win" it just sorts content by value. And yes. you are terrified of that, as you should be.


Arguments are won on the internet, and throughout the world, daily.
If you think you can't lose an argument, that is your problem. If you refuse to admit defeat, that is your problem.
You can and do lose arguments, as you are losing them here.

Up/Down voting does NOT sort content by value, it sorts it by suppression/amplification.
I can up/down vote anyone I want, whether I agree with them or not, and I dont even have to justify in text why I do so.

No matter how right you are, and how "valuable" your post, I can down vote them all, for ever, just cos "i dont like you".

Your post is categorically the most stupid and asinine nonsense I have EVER read on the internet over 25+ years.
Im at a complete loss to explain how you can be so categorically wrong, hypocritical and self- defeating.

The supreme irony here, is that it is exactly people like you that mean the Reddit format will never be other than trash.
Its people like you, that demonstrate why it cannot, and does not, function as a format for argument/debate.
Not because the format is flawed per se, but because it is populated by people like you.

Bolded/underlined the important part. Failing to understand words does not make you right. It doesn't even necessarily make you wrong either. But a long winded diatribe showing off how much you don't understand makes you... well, see the bolded/underlined part.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#184 - 2017-02-09 17:14:28 UTC
mkint wrote:
sorts content by value

Well, going from this point, many sites now are spammed with fake likes, there is a popular net diagnostic tool that you can use to "test" like buttons on many sites.

I had instruction somewhere...

ᴇᴠᴇʀʏ ᴘᴀʀᴛ ᴏғ ᴀ ɢᴀᴍᴇ ʜᴇʟᴘs ᴛᴏ ᴛᴇʟʟ ᴀ sᴛᴏʀʏ 📕

ᴡʜᴇʀᴇ ɪs ᴀɴɢʀʏ ᴄᴏɴᴄᴏʀᴅ ɢᴜʏ ᴡʜᴇɴ ʏᴏᴜ ɴᴇᴇᴅ ʜɪᴍ

ᴏsᴘʀᴇʏ 🚀

≡⋁≡ ♥
Salvos Rhoska
#185 - 2017-02-09 17:23:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
mkint wrote:
make yourself look like a jackass..


Lol @ neglecting all arguments in favor of bolding/underlining a few word from your previous post.

I think its clear who the jackass is.

Guess what?

I dont like you and its clear you have nothing of value to offer except hypocrisy.
So I am now going to block you, cos I can.

Consider yourself down-voted into oblivion.
I will never again see your crap.

Go head back to Reddit where your excrement sprouts wings and flies.
It ain't happening here.

Goodbye.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
mkint
#186 - 2017-02-09 17:33:19 UTC  |  Edited by: mkint
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
mkint wrote:
make yourself look like a jackass..


Lol @ neglecting all arguments in favor of bolding/underlining a few word from your previous post.

I think its clear who the jackass is.

Guess what?

I dont like you and its clear you have nothing of value to offer except hypocrisy.
So I am now going to block you, cos I can.

Go head back to Reddit where your excrement sprouts wings and flies.
It ain't happening here.

Goodbye.

In the off chance that this gets quoted...

Plugging your ears and going "lalala I can't hear you" isn't the same thing as winning an "argument."

And I did refute your entire "argument" in one sentence. "Failing to understand words does not make you right." Oh my gawd, did I just win an internet argument? Am I the first? First! \o/

edit: To keep this at least somewhat on topic, this back and forth is why an up/down vote system would be beneficial for these forums. I've seen some of the back and forth arguments that are incredibly tedious and about nothing. I've seen other versions where the back and forth brings to light some extremely good points and illuminate the complexities of a situation. The ones involving this dude... they're never productive. They aren't meant to be. They are masturbatory, for the ego, not to explore a topic. An up/down vote system would save people the hassle of having to read them before knowing if it's worth reading, thus improving the quality of the content. The hard part would be to avoid turning it into reddit. I don't use reddit, I don't like it, I don't enjoy it, but I don't deny what it's good at.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Kaleb Mynwarra
AirHogs
Hogs Collective
#187 - 2017-02-09 19:30:50 UTC
Nana Skalski wrote:
Kaleb Mynwarra wrote:

In my view the power of a "thumbs down" vote is on par with a "thumbs up" vote. One could conceive that either one could be flooded with votes for a multidied of causes, to include things like multi boxed / multi account voting. It's very probable that it's already happened here with just the "thumbs up " vote. Up or down the votes should be taken with a grain of salt. With that we shouldn't promote the idea that those votes should influence thread popularity. If for no other reason that there's the possibility that enough egregious votes could mar any honest assessment.


No one really cares for likes, people have lived without them for so long. But people care for dislikes. Especially if you can bury someones post under them. And while the likes is a fun part, unlike is in a no-fun zone. Truth, if it hurts with raw logic, unpopular, but sound propositions, all may not be so popular under those conditions.


I don't disagree that people prefer approval over disapproval :p
Im neither for or against the continued use of the the "thumbs up" button. The same can be said about possible inclusion of a "thumbs down".

Admittedly some people would like to see the like/dislike tally as a tool to pick what threads to read. Perhaps it could be useful in that sense.

To clarify my position. I don't mind having the like dislike option being avalable. I'm very weary of utilizing the like / dislike tally as a benchmark for post placement , based on the likely possibility that the like / dislike voting process could be tainted.

"All right, everybody, just calm down" - Space Ghost

"For 800 years ...." - some little green man
mkint
#188 - 2017-02-09 19:41:06 UTC
Kaleb Mynwarra wrote:
Nana Skalski wrote:
Kaleb Mynwarra wrote:

In my view the power of a "thumbs down" vote is on par with a "thumbs up" vote. One could conceive that either one could be flooded with votes for a multidied of causes, to include things like multi boxed / multi account voting. It's very probable that it's already happened here with just the "thumbs up " vote. Up or down the votes should be taken with a grain of salt. With that we shouldn't promote the idea that those votes should influence thread popularity. If for no other reason that there's the possibility that enough egregious votes could mar any honest assessment.


No one really cares for likes, people have lived without them for so long. But people care for dislikes. Especially if you can bury someones post under them. And while the likes is a fun part, unlike is in a no-fun zone. Truth, if it hurts with raw logic, unpopular, but sound propositions, all may not be so popular under those conditions.


I don't disagree that people prefer approval over disapproval :p
Im neither for or against the continued use of the the "thumbs up" button. The same can be said about possible inclusion of a "thumbs down".

Admittedly some people would like to see the like/dislike tally as a tool to pick what threads to read. Perhaps it could be useful in that sense.

To clarify my position. I don't mind having the like dislike option being avalable. I'm very weary of utilizing the like / dislike tally as a benchmark for post placement , based on the likely possibility that the like / dislike voting process could be tainted.

What are other forums doing to address this kind of issue? There are only 2 or 3 forums that I visit regularly and none of them bother. This one is probably more in need of some kind of quality control than most. I know I've seen dislike thresholds on some forums that seemed to be pretty effective. I don't really like the reddit format, and I struggle with its sorting, so I agree with you there. I can only tolerate reddit for about 5 minutes a month before swearing it off, and I even tend to avoid reddit results on google. If the question is about improving the quality of the discussion here, is the up/down vote system even the right way to go? I've been assuming that's the reason the discussion has been moving to reddit, but is that accurate?

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#189 - 2017-02-09 19:43:14 UTC  |  Edited by: sero Hita
mkint wrote:


In the off chance that this gets quoted...

Plugging your ears and going "lalala I can't hear you" isn't the same thing as winning an "argument."

And I did refute your entire "argument" in one sentence. "Failing to understand words does not make you right." Oh my gawd, did I just win an internet argument? Am I the first? First! \o/

edit: To keep this at least somewhat on topic, this back and forth is why an up/down vote system would be beneficial for these forums. I've seen some of the back and forth arguments that are incredibly tedious and about nothing. I've seen other versions where the back and forth brings to light some extremely good points and illuminate the complexities of a situation. The ones involving this dude... they're never productive. They aren't meant to be. They are masturbatory, for the ego, not to explore a topic. An up/down vote system would save people the hassle of having to read them before knowing if it's worth reading, thus improving the quality of the content. The hard part would be to avoid turning it into reddit. I don't use reddit, I don't like it, I don't enjoy it, but I don't deny what it's good at.



This is just like his last meldown, where he quit the forums for a good time. He thought he had a briliant idea about how banning people from NPC corps, who revitalize null and low. When no one agreed with him, he got increasingly nasty like now. The paranoia increased, he accused people of alternative motives. The reductive use of logic reasoning, connecting stuff to make farfetched conclusions. Claiming he was winning. He was not listening to anyones point but his own. He misunderstod posts, like now with him not understanding the difference of censure/censor. After this he started getting personal, like he is now... "I don´t like you... bla bla". Then he went into full blown irradic writing and then he quit.

I am pretty biased having a paranoid schizophrenic sister, so I see ghosts everywhere. My alarm bells are ringing though. With your last comment you seemed agitated, Salvos. Hope, this discussing on the internet (which should be fun), are not pushing you over some personal limit.

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#190 - 2017-02-09 21:02:48 UTC
How would people like a forum very similar to current, with a dislike button added. Posts continue to appear in chronological order, and posts can have X likes/ dislikes which does nothing automatically. Users could set a cutoff at -10 likes, or wherever they like, and the system would hide posts below that threshold. People who enjoy seeing every post can do, and those who prefer to avoid unpopular posts can.

I'd be a bit worried about the alliance mentality and the possibility of waging forum war in that way, but perhaps we can think of a solution?

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.
Josef Djugashvilis
#191 - 2017-02-09 21:55:32 UTC
To those who wish for a 'dislike' button, I assume that you have thought of some means which would prevent it being spammed, say by the goons, for example?

This is not a signature.
Kaleb Mynwarra
AirHogs
Hogs Collective
#192 - 2017-02-09 22:33:46 UTC

mkint,

My contributes to online forums outside of work have been limited these last few years. Outside of the occasional remark I really didn’t have the time to peruse let alone contribute to entertainment based online discussions. Most of my online comments were on professional based websites. Those tend to be much more ridged and very little concern is put to the popularity of a topic when the overall goal was achieving departmental deadlines. Coincidently the professional forums I use are even more severely moderated compared to this one.

Im not too sure that there is a ‘best’. ‘Best’ would be subjective. As I eluded in an earlier post. Things I like and dislike, find interesting and uninteresting and so forth could be the complete opposite opinion of another person. IMO the best thing we collectively can hope for is a system that contains a set of reasonable rules, enforced by objective moderation, but is primarily influenced by the using population.

It’s reasonable to assume that the Dev team working on the new forum would have looked at other popular forums, particularly the ones that EVE players have gravitated towards. It’s also reasonable to think they’d be looking at what’s being said here on their own forums.

Dev Falcon mentioned that they were in the process of formulating a new forum including a lessening/ modifying some the rules. I would hope the Dev team working on the new forums take into account some of the responses made in this thread.

"All right, everybody, just calm down" - Space Ghost

"For 800 years ...." - some little green man
mkint
#193 - 2017-02-09 22:40:48 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
To those who wish for a 'dislike' button, I assume that you have thought of some means which would prevent it being spammed, say by the goons, for example?

By only putting it on sections that don't matter. So, no F&I, no dev threads, no feedback threads. Maybe not even WTB/WTS market threads. All those function fine as is. But the community sections, absolutely.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Kaleb Mynwarra
AirHogs
Hogs Collective
#194 - 2017-02-10 00:28:15 UTC
mkint wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
To those who wish for a 'dislike' button, I assume that you have thought of some means which would prevent it being spammed, say by the goons, for example?

By only putting it on sections that don't matter. So, no F&I, no dev threads, no feedback threads. Maybe not even WTB/WTS market threads. All those function fine as is. But the community sections, absolutely.


I don't see any reason why we should limit the use of a like/dislike option so long as that option has no barring on the placement of a post. Look at it simply as some sort of function that'll stoke vanity. Outside of that it's got zero effect on where, when, or for how long a post stays where it is.

Post popularity IMO shouldn't be about who clicked a button. It should be about the number of people who've read and participated in the conversations

"All right, everybody, just calm down" - Space Ghost

"For 800 years ...." - some little green man
Toobo
Project Fruit House
#195 - 2017-02-10 00:41:46 UTC
didn't go through every single post here, so this may overlap, but here's another thing

reddit (or any other non-CCP owned/moderated forums, message boards, etc) is great (not for me but for CCP) because things can be said & talked about there with no limits and CCP bears absolutely no responsibility on what is said over there.

For CCP, when things get said in their forum (e.g. here), they have certain amount of duty to moderate it and keep up to some kind of standard. Using an extreme example, German gov. has been investigating Facebook to probe whether they have been doing enough to hammer down on hate speeches on their site (as that's pretty serious crime in Germany, if you neglect stomping on those in your media/communication platform).

I do not like reddit at all, and I really wish all EVE related stuff gets discussed & covered here in the official forum, but I do understand that using a third party platform for discussion gives much more leeway for everyone.

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#196 - 2017-02-10 08:03:20 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
We're actually in the middle of testing an entirely new forum system with the assistance of our Volunteer team, and we'll more than likely be looking to roll it out somewhere toward the summer Smile

Why not just update the current forums? What's wrong with them?

Evil RatKid
Circumstantial Evidence
#197 - 2017-02-10 21:47:58 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:
How would people like a forum very similar to current, with a dislike button added. Posts continue to appear in chronological order, and posts can have X likes/ dislikes which does nothing automatically. Users could set a cutoff at -10 likes, or wherever they like, and the system would hide posts below that threshold. People who enjoy seeing every post can do, and those who prefer to avoid unpopular posts can.

I'd be a bit worried about the alliance mentality and the possibility of waging forum war in that way, but perhaps we can think of a solution?
If I hover over a future "like" or "dislike" counter for a given post, the tooltip could show a count of the top 3 alliances rating the post with a "like" or "dislike". Don't try to prevent it, but give readers a method of learning the largest contributors to posts getting liked or disliked.


On a related topic of why reddit is getting more use: Items posted to News Channels or patch notes don't have comment threads, unless the CCP poster makes a special effort to create a thread. Have you ever wanted to comment on a Scope news article? You have to go over to the EVE Fiction section to see if someone is talking about the latest item, or make your own thread. Why is this extra work required? Everything CCP publishes should have a comment section, it's ubiquitous in web design these days.

The 119.2 patch notes have drawn a number of pre-release comments over on reddit, including dev replies that these forums would have benefited from.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#198 - 2017-02-10 22:21:34 UTC
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:
On a related topic of why reddit is getting more use: Items posted to News Channels or patch notes don't have comment threads, unless the CCP poster makes a special effort to create a thread. Have you ever wanted to comment on a Scope news article? You have to go over to the EVE Fiction section to see if someone is talking about the latest item, or make your own thread. Why is this extra work required? Everything CCP publishes should have a comment section, it's ubiquitous in web design these days.

The 119.2 patch notes have drawn a number of pre-release comments over on reddit, including dev replies that these forums would have benefited from.

I like having a clear, concise area where they can post updates without comments so you don't have to read through the drivel. Yes, the dev replies on the EVE Reddit thread are certainly valid - but the majority of comments are just fluff.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Kaleb Mynwarra
AirHogs
Hogs Collective
#199 - 2017-02-12 02:54:40 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:
On a related topic of why reddit is getting more use: Items posted to News Channels or patch notes don't have comment threads, unless the CCP poster makes a special effort to create a thread. Have you ever wanted to comment on a Scope news article? You have to go over to the EVE Fiction section to see if someone is talking about the latest item, or make your own thread. Why is this extra work required? Everything CCP publishes should have a comment section, it's ubiquitous in web design these days.

The 119.2 patch notes have drawn a number of pre-release comments over on reddit, including dev replies that these forums would have benefited from.

I like having a clear, concise area where they can post updates without comments so you don't have to read through the drivel. Yes, the dev replies on the EVE Reddit thread are certainly valid - but the majority of comments are just fluff.


I agree.
From my perspective Reddit looks like it's one step away from anarchy

"All right, everybody, just calm down" - Space Ghost

"For 800 years ...." - some little green man
Johnny Titan Junior
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#200 - 2017-02-12 11:31:06 UTC
CCP should recreate the old CAOD forum. That was always a fun read, and it gave outsiders a glimpse of politics the game. These days it is difficult to follow who is fighting whom and why.