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Why do people say the rifter is bad?
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Maekchu
Doomheim
#161 - 2017-01-09 00:20:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Maekchu
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
If a ship is crap, by your own acknowledgement, why do you bend over backwards in attempt to sugar coat it as if it isnt?

The Comet is a decent brawling frigate, but the alternatives (Worm) are just better. Does that mean that the Comet is a crap ship?

I hope by this question, you can see that something can be decent but still have better alternatives, which is the situation with the Rifter. If you can't see what I'm getting at, then I don't know how to explain it. Also, I didn't call the Rifter a crap ship anywhere O.o

But let's just leave it at that :D You devil you, always pulling me back in ; *
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#162 - 2017-01-09 00:22:17 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Maekchu wrote:
If I can get kills with the Rifter at a decent rate, then I won't consider the ship as bad as people make it to be.


vs

Maekchu wrote:
Personally, I would say the alternatives are just better, as stated in my first post in this thread.


You also claimed the Rifter is a good "learning ship", delegating it as a ship you will lose with over and over, as if that is somekind of positive benefit until you finally choose another ship.

Ive seen this attitude in other PvP games, and in EVE, and Ive never understood it.

Ship balance is ship balance.
If a ship is crap, by your own acknowledgement, why do you bend over backwards in attempt to sugar coat it as if it wasnt?


I don't remember him calling it crap. I remember him calling it a "jack of all trades, master of none", not "jack of all trades, crap at everything". This is what a lot of Navy pilots call the F/A-18C as well, and it sure as hell ain't crap. Every time you throw a tantrum about someone misrepresenting you, or using 'fallacies', this is why - not because they're actually doing that, but because you are projecting.

You learn more from losing in this game than you do from winning. Demonstrable fact. The Rifter is not crap. Demonstrable fact. Are there better options? Yes. There are also better options than an F/A-18C for all of the roles it can perform, that doesn't make it crap. You seem to have a brain that can only work in exclusives, and false dichotomies.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Salvos Rhoska
#163 - 2017-01-09 00:43:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Maekchu wrote:
Personally, I would say the alternatives are just better, as stated in my first post in this thread.


Alternatives are just better.

(NB: I quote this in full deference to having looked at your very impressive and extensive KB.)

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#164 - 2017-01-09 01:58:44 UTC
Answering the OP, it's not that the Rifter is bad, it's that anything a Rifter can do, the other two Minmatar frigates can do better. Scram-kite? The Breacher is better at it. Straight-up brawling? A Breacher is better at it. Sig-tank combat? A Slasher is better at it. Fast tackle? A Slasher is still better at it. Heck, A Slasher is also better at straight-up brawling since she can fit a MASB and not lose the tackle trinity!

The Rifter is currently stuck between two siblings who are better at everything she's trying to do.

On the other hand, the Rifter is easier to train into compared to the Breacher and doesn't lose 1/3 of her DPS when her (non-existent) drones die. YET a Breacher without drones will still outdamage a Rifter at scram-kite range.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
mkint
#165 - 2017-01-09 04:19:15 UTC
Maekchu wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
If a ship is crap, by your own acknowledgement, why do you bend over backwards in attempt to sugar coat it as if it isnt?

The Comet is a decent brawling frigate, but the alternatives (Worm) are just better. Does that mean that the Comet is a crap ship?

I hope by this question, you can see that something can be decent but still have better alternatives, which is the situation with the Rifter. If you can't see what I'm getting at, then I don't know how to explain it. Also, I didn't call the Rifter a crap ship anywhere O.o

But let's just leave it at that :D You devil you, always pulling me back in ; *

please, please stop feeding the troll. It just makes noise and then pretends it's conversation. I'd point out why it's obviously a troll, but we're all better off if we let it starve and whither.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#166 - 2017-01-09 04:21:20 UTC
I remember around 6-7 years ago the Rifter was the bees knees and there were entire "lowsec pirate guides" using the Rifter as the best choice ship.

That X-wing fighter look helped too.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Mike Adoulin
Happys Happy Hamster Hunting Club
#167 - 2017-01-09 16:26:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Adoulin
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Mike Adoulin wrote:


Yep, pilot skill counts for nothing........

Roll


I havent said that.



I don't care what you've 'said', troll.

I said explain it, smart guy.

Itty kills Megathron

And this was pre-rebalance, which makes it even better.

Here's a thought....YOU CAN'T.

So much for your entire troll...excuse me, "argument".

Everything in EVE is a trap.

And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)

You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.

Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.
Salvos Rhoska
#168 - 2017-01-09 16:37:59 UTC
Mike Adoulin wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Mike Adoulin wrote:


Yep, pilot skill counts for nothing........

Roll


I havent said that.



I don't care what you've 'said', troll.

I said explain it, smart guy.

Itty kills Megathron

And this was pre-rebalance, which makes it even better.

Here's a thought....YOU CAN'T.

So much for your entire troll...excuse me, "argument".



I have not said what you claim I have.

Get that into your head, troll.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#169 - 2017-01-10 01:17:30 UTC
By the way, I figured out that it's possible to fit a 250mm arty Rifter. Just not sure if it's any good since, well, Rifter's no Wolf.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Toobo
Project Fruit House
#170 - 2017-01-10 03:00:33 UTC
Salvos, I get what you are saying, and in theory you may be correct, but you are completely ignoring the actual practice that happens in space/in-game.

Ship stats are hard coded, yes, and nobody can make the ship do something that the ship design does not support it to do - that is correct and that is a fact.

But in practice, put it this way - a kitey ship vs. a Gallente brawler.

Theoretically, let's say a Brutix vs. a Cynabal, then Brutix can never catch the Cynabal, because Cynabal is just so much faster and agile by design. However, I have caught a Cynabal in Brutix before, or nano cane in an Astarte, or a stabber in a thorax, etc, etc.

The reality of a pvp encounter is that although ship stats may be 'fixed' and 'hard coded', the out come of the pvp encounter depends so much on what the pilot does with his ships. And you can talk all you want about 'if the pilots had identical skills', but then you are talking about some theoretical scenario, not a usual practical scenario.

In EVE, I'm pretty sure that 99% of fights happen between pilots who do not have identical skills/aptitude/ability/experience.

So yes, in your 'ideal' scenario, which is like a controlled lab experiment - you may well be correct. But in the actual game, what you say just does not apply most of the times.


So tl;dr - what you are saying, at theoretical level and as a series of logical statements, could well be correct. But it is so not applicable to actual player experiences in-game, because there are so many other variables that plays as big or even bigger role than ship stats. Your statement (which could be correct) is just not applicable to the extent that it is irrelevant except for theoretical discussion outside of what happens in the game.

Just my 2 cents mate.

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#171 - 2017-01-10 05:28:38 UTC
Toobo wrote:
Salvos, I get what you are saying, and in theory you may be correct, but you are completely ignoring the actual practice that happens in space/in-game.

Ship stats are hard coded, yes, and nobody can make the ship do something that the ship design does not support it to do - that is correct and that is a fact.

But in practice, put it this way - a kitey ship vs. a Gallente brawler.

Theoretically, let's say a Brutix vs. a Cynabal, then Brutix can never catch the Cynabal, because Cynabal is just so much faster and agile by design. However, I have caught a Cynabal in Brutix before, or nano cane in an Astarte, or a stabber in a thorax, etc, etc.

The reality of a pvp encounter is that although ship stats may be 'fixed' and 'hard coded', the out come of the pvp encounter depends so much on what the pilot does with his ships. And you can talk all you want about 'if the pilots had identical skills', but then you are talking about some theoretical scenario, not a usual practical scenario.

In EVE, I'm pretty sure that 99% of fights happen between pilots who do not have identical skills/aptitude/ability/experience.

So yes, in your 'ideal' scenario, which is like a controlled lab experiment - you may well be correct. But in the actual game, what you say just does not apply most of the times.


So tl;dr - what you are saying, at theoretical level and as a series of logical statements, could well be correct. But it is so not applicable to actual player experiences in-game, because there are so many other variables that plays as big or even bigger role than ship stats. Your statement (which could be correct) is just not applicable to the extent that it is irrelevant except for theoretical discussion outside of what happens in the game.

Just my 2 cents mate.




I have seen lamentations of newer players regarding their loss of a battleship to what they described as a "super-frigate".

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Toobo
Project Fruit House
#172 - 2017-01-10 07:46:55 UTC
Heh, I would like one of those 'super frigates' XD

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!