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Why do people say the rifter is bad?

Author
Salvos Rhoska
#141 - 2017-01-08 18:38:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
mkint wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

People have misread, misconstrued and misrepresented my position, and implied it to mean things it does not.
I hope I have articulated myself sufficiently to demonstrate this is not a controversial issue or position.

"Ship stats are primary"
"I never said ship stats are primary"
"I never said ship stats determine who wins a fight"
"Ship stats are primary"
"nobody understands me! I wanna go live with my dad!"

You are definitely NOT clear. Maybe... learn what words are? The more face you try to save, the more embarrassing your stance(?). Shoulda just bowed out with any remaining dignity 6 pages ago.


You are misquoting.

I have always said ship stats are primary, and explained why.
Ship stats are primary, as player skill is restricted by and applied to ship stat, secondarily.

I have never said that ship stats alone determine who wins a fight.
(which is another misquotation by you).

Or are you positing that ship stats are not important in determining who wins a fight?
Be very careful how you answer now.

1) Do you agree that each ship is limited by its stats?
2) Do you agree that no amount of player skill can cause a ship to exceed its limitations?
3) Do you agree that player skill is a subjective, individual quality, whereas ship stats are an objective, universal quantity?
4) Do you agree that a player is restricted by the capabilities of the ship he/she is operating?
5) Do you agree that discussion of ship balance is about ship stats, not player skill?
Yarosara Ruil
Haighare Pirates
#142 - 2017-01-08 21:12:35 UTC
I wanted to see arguments on why the Rifter is bad and how people use it.

Instead I got to see one guy hoarding the thread like his personal soapbox.

And he doesn't even fly Rifters in PvP!
Salvos Rhoska
#143 - 2017-01-08 21:22:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Yarosara Ruil wrote:
I wanted to see arguments on why the Rifter is bad and how people use it.

Instead I got to see one guy hoarding the thread like his personal soapbox.

And he doesn't even fly Rifters in PvP!


Yeah, its crap, and I apologize for my part in it.

I havent hoarded anything, Ive just answered to people that themselves tried to derail the thread, over and over.

I kept trying to draw the thread back to what you want, but these guys dont want it to happen.

OP would be better off posting this to Ships & Modules forum, away from GD cancer.
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#144 - 2017-01-08 21:36:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Yarosara Ruil wrote:
I wanted to see arguments on why the Rifter is bad and how people use it.

Instead I got to see one guy hoarding the thread like his personal soapbox.

And he doesn't even fly Rifters in PvP!

I don't fly the Rifter in pvp. A couple of people that know me, would laugh at this thread, because I often call it a trash ship.

Why?

Purely my opinion here and I'm no god of pvp, so take it or leave it:

When I think of flying other ships, there are almost none that I wouldn't feel I couldn't engage a Rifter with, but the reverse is not true.

With the range of autocannons, the 5% bonus to damage often doesn't do much because the ship can almost always be engaged at someone else's optimal, outside the optimal of the ACs. Additionally, the falloff bonus doesn't do much because it still doesn't do much to ships that can kite and it doesn't really improve the damage enough to be a problem.

On the artillery side, I find them too easy to affect because I can almost always keep transversal up, reducing the likelihood of wrecking shots; and they are extremely susceptible to tracking disruption (as are autocannons).

It's fast, but with the 3 mid-slots, it almost always needs a web to be able to slow opponents down, which also means it's likely to be scram fit, in order to get on top of the opponent. In that case, I feel like it still struggles against kiting ships that won't be caught that way and is not a good enough brawler to outbrawl other close range combat options.

As a result, compared to other T1 frigates, there are ships that allow much better application of damage and more variety in their fittings, so the rifter never figures in my options.

Even in Minmatar, the Breacher is a stronger ship because missiles.rockets will always apply and the shield boost bonus gives tanking ability. It can successfully kite or brawl and can hold it's tank while doing so. It's a much better option in my view.
Yarosara Ruil
Haighare Pirates
#145 - 2017-01-08 21:42:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Yarosara Ruil
So then, why is the Rifter "bad"? Just because of its stats? Its slot layout? Even Rhiload made fun of the Rifter and all he had to say about it was that "it's bad".

If it's bad because its average, then it's not really a bad ship, is it?
Maekchu
Doomheim
#146 - 2017-01-08 21:52:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Maekchu
Yarosara Ruil wrote:
So then, why is the Rifter "bad"? Just because of its stats? Its slot layout? Even Rhiload made fun of the Rifter and all he had to say about it was that "it's bad".

If it's bad because its average, then it's not really a bad ship, is it?

Personally, I would say the alternatives are just better, as stated in my first post in this thread. The Rifter is most often flown as a scram kiter, but the Breacher just does that much better.

However, if you maybe only have AC skills trained, you can still get stuff done with a Rifter. It can also be a strength to be in an underestimated hull, since more people will stay and take the engagement, instead of just warping out (having FW plexes in mind). But I don't think the hull is as bad as some people might make it out to be.
Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
#147 - 2017-01-08 21:54:38 UTC
Yarosara Ruil wrote:
So then, why is the Rifter "bad"? Just because of its stats? Its slot layout? Even Rhiload made fun of the Rifter and all he had to say about it was that "it's bad".

If it's bad because its average, then it's not really a bad ship, is it?


There's a good argument that everyone will fight a Rifter and underestimate you, instead of getting in a ship that's regarded as 'Good' and then not being able to find anything that will fight you.

@lunettelulu7

Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#148 - 2017-01-08 22:03:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Yarosara Ruil wrote:
It's bad because its average, then it's not really a bad ship, is it?

In my view, it's bad because each option to fit it has a trade off that is not very pleasant.

It's slot layout is 4-3-3

So if you want to fit ACs and brawl, you really need those 3 mid-slots to be propulsion, scram and web or to catch kiting ships that are mwd fit. The utility highslot is normally neut/nos but a small neut can be handled with active tank and/or doesn't really affect passive tanked ships that don't require cap for their weapons. So at best, it often gives you an ability to disengage, but not so much help to kill someone (in comparison to other ships and the options they have).

If you fit the mids to tackle, then where is the tank? You become a glass cannon or tank goes in the lows where you want damage modifiers. So it either has to be hull tanked, or armor starts to reduce the speed it has.

Similarly, if you fit artillery, you can fit shield tank and damage modifiers, but then it's possible for an opponent to maintain transversal and/or disrupt, and damage application is not as good as other T1 frigate options.

So overall, I personally think just about every other T1 frigate is a better option for pvp, especially the Breacher which is also Minmatar (it is a far better pvp ship).

But, all the above is just my view. I don't fly the ship because it doesn't look good. Someone who flies it successfully might rightly say I'm full of rubbish because they have the experience and knowledge to say so.
Salvos Rhoska
#149 - 2017-01-08 22:22:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Maekchu wrote:

Personally, I would say the alternatives are just better, as stated in my first post in this thread.

Personally, I don't think the hull is as bad as some people might make it out to be.


Hmm...

Lulu Lunette wrote:
There's a good argument that everyone will fight a Rifter and underestimate you, instead of getting in a ship that's regarded as 'Good' and then not being able to find anything that will fight you.


I dont think them thinking, rightly, that you are an easy target, is a justification for Rifter stats.
They may underestimate the pilot, but they are not underestimating the ship itself.
Maekchu
Doomheim
#150 - 2017-01-08 22:34:48 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Maekchu wrote:

Personally, I would say the alternatives are just better, as stated in my first post in this thread.

Personally, I don't think the hull is as bad as some people might make it out to be.


Hmm...

Changed it to a "but" so it makes more sense... But the sentiment is still the same. Currently, the alternatives are better if you can fly those, but the ship isn't as bad as people make it.

It's a decent scram kiter. It challenges people to learn about engagement ranges, which is great when learning PvP. Being underestimated is great for getting more engagements.
Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
#151 - 2017-01-08 22:37:16 UTC
The Rifter is Bad, by Lulu Lunette

The Rifter is no longer the fastest, no longer the tankiest, no longer projects damage the best.. it's traded being the best at everything for being the most average at everything. Does that make it really bad? Not at all imo. It's great for finding fights. There are not too many people who will run away from a Rifter in this day and age.

So why is it widely regarded as bad? Let's only compare it to other T1 4-3-3 slot layout ships:

Atron
Executioner

In the department of MWD brawlers, I think any Atron, Executioner or Rifter is fairly equal. Approach and pray.

In straight up brawling I think on average, the Rifter is superior? (do you actually run into brawling Atrons and Executioners?)

In scram-kiting, how lowseccers on average play...

The Atron is fastest at 420 m/s base speed
The Executioner a close second at 410m/s base speed
...
The Rifter is at 365m/s

Comparing CPU/PG is kinda weird to me but the Executioner has the most PG and the Atron has the most CPU.

I guess to call the Rifter bad is just so simple but if you needed to see some comparison that's the best I can come up with. You're going to have to rely too much on the other pilot being erroneous or maybe sleeping at the helm. There are plenty of killmails with Rifters killing sleeping kite Garmurs and Slicers. So luck has to be on your side more when compared to the other scram-kiters of the game. Those other two just do it better I guess. The Rifter's engagement profile is smaller in the raw rock-paper-scissors matchup but it's not really right to look at Eve PVP that way.

I think the Rifter is supposed to be treated like a baby Wolf, only it has a web. And what's the point of Assault Frigates anymore with Svipuls and Confessors and Hecates and Jackdaws?

Disclaimer: I personally don't think lowsec is that great. Having said that I haven't played since links were super abused but I think the better game is to prey on terrible nullsec players in things like Kestrels. And I am a newb. This is a bit out of my pay grade but at least it's a bit more on topic instead of semantics lol

@lunettelulu7

Salvos Rhoska
#152 - 2017-01-08 22:43:18 UTC
Maekchu wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Maekchu wrote:

Personally, I would say the alternatives are just better, as stated in my first post in this thread.

Personally, I don't think the hull is as bad as some people might make it out to be.


Hmm...

Changed it to a "but" so it makes more sense... But the sentiment is still the same. Currently, the alternatives are better if you can fly those, but the ship isn't as bad as people make it.

It's a decent scram kiter. It challenges people to learn about engagement ranges, which is great when learning PvP. Being underestimated is great for getting more engagements.


So your argument is that the Rifter s a crap beginner ship to die in so as to learn to fly something else instead.

You have said alternatives are better, yet you claim its not as bad as that.

I find this very contradictory.
Maekchu
Doomheim
#153 - 2017-01-08 22:57:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Maekchu
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

So your argument is that the Rifter s a crap beginner ship to die in so as to learn to fly something else instead.

You have said alternatives are better, yet you claim its not as bad as that.

I find this very contradictory.

The ship is currently a jack of all trades and doesn't excel at anything.

However, you can still do stuff with it. If you scram kite the Rifter, it will still win engagements against brawling blaster fits, given that you pull range. If you slingshot a MWD kiter, you will still kill it, if you get a scram on it. If you MWD scram fit the Rifter and go into null to hunt inties, you will also still kill them if you get a scram on them.

Since the hull still can be useful, I don't find it as bad as some people make it to be.
Salvos Rhoska
#154 - 2017-01-08 23:15:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Maekchu wrote:
The ship is currently a jack of all trades and doesn't excel at anything..


Which means it is a crap ship that cant do anything well.

As corroborated by this statement:
Maekchu wrote:
Personally, I would say the alternatives are just better, as stated in my first post in this thread.
Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
#155 - 2017-01-08 23:20:42 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Maekchu wrote:
The ship is currently a jack of all trades and doesn't excel at anything..


Which means it is a crap ship that cant do anything well.


The designers that don't actually play this game thought that by it having a good utility, a decent brawler or a decent scram kiter would make it viable, when instead it's not good enough at either. The utility was it's weakness. lol

I think the Tristan is probably today's version of the old Rifter. It can be fit so many ways and always wins.

@lunettelulu7

Maekchu
Doomheim
#156 - 2017-01-08 23:28:50 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Maekchu wrote:
The ship is currently a jack of all trades and doesn't excel at anything..


Which means it is a crap ship that cant do anything well.

As corroborated by this statement:
Maekchu wrote:
Personally, I would say the alternatives are just better, as stated in my first post in this thread.

Well, not all ships can be worms :D
Salvos Rhoska
#157 - 2017-01-08 23:28:52 UTC
Lulu Lunette wrote:
The designers that don't actually play this game thought that by it having a good utility, a decent brawler or a decent scram kiter would make it viable, when instead it's not good enough at either. The utility was it's weakness. lol.


I agree entirely, and I think this is true of much of the Minmatar ship lines.
I wrote an extended post on that, but deleted it in favor of not derailing thread.
Salvos Rhoska
#158 - 2017-01-08 23:30:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Maekchu wrote:

Well, not all ships can be worms :D


Is this supposed to be funny?

Is this your response as to the issue, in your own words, of all alternatives being better than a Rifter and OPs question?

Did we not just agree that Rifters are infact crap at everything, and masters of none?

So far its only redeeming factor is in that it it is so crap that everyone will engage, cos they know they will likely win.
Thats wonderful for others, but hardly encouraging for the Rifter pilot, much less for balance.

This sentiment was further carried in your earlier statements, that its a great "learning ship", by means of dying repeatedly with slim hope of success, after which you say fk it and fly something else, anything else.
Maekchu
Doomheim
#159 - 2017-01-08 23:50:50 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Maekchu wrote:

Well, not all ships can be worms :D


Is this supposed to be funny?

Is this your response as to the issue, in your own words, of all alternatives being better than a Rifter and OPs question?

Did we not just agree that Rifters are infact crap at everything, and masters of none?

Well, to me getting kills is enough. If I can get kills with the Rifter at a decent rate, then I won't consider the ship as bad as people make it to be. So we didn't agree on anything and I wouldn't call the ship "crap". I'd probably more likely call it "functional". If getting kills is not good enough for you, then I don't know what you want the ship to be able to accomplish.

And yeah, it was supposed to be a small joke to end the discussion on a lighter note. But obviously, that didn't go as well as I had hoped. Here I thought the small smiley and the end would convey my chill attitude.

But here I go again, falling into the endless debate blackhole that is Salvos Rhoska : *
Salvos Rhoska
#160 - 2017-01-09 00:06:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Maekchu wrote:
If I can get kills with the Rifter at a decent rate, then I won't consider the ship as bad as people make it to be.


vs

Maekchu wrote:
Personally, I would say the alternatives are just better, as stated in my first post in this thread.


You also claimed the Rifter is a good "learning ship", delegating it as a ship you will lose with over and over, as if that is somekind of positive benefit until you finally choose another ship.

Ive seen this attitude in other PvP games, and in EVE, and Ive never understood it.

Ship balance is ship balance.
If a ship is crap, by your own acknowledgement, why do you bend over backwards in attempt to sugar coat it as if it isnt?