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Why do people say the rifter is bad?

Author
Fek Mercer
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2017-01-07 09:38:10 UTC
At this point, I've flown the rifter quite a lot. It's not the best for sure, but I'm not sure what it is exactly that makes it apparently bad. is it just a case of other t1 ships being op?
Gradinger
Todmacher
#2 - 2017-01-07 09:52:40 UTC
never heard anyone say the rifter is bad v0v
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2017-01-07 09:53:41 UTC
Fek Mercer wrote:
At this point, I've flown the rifter quite a lot. It's not the best for sure, but I'm not sure what it is exactly that makes it apparently bad. is it just a case of other t1 ships being op?


None of the PVP'ers I know and fly with claim the Rifter is bad, but for those that do it might be one of those cases where 'bad' becomes synonymous with 'not good enough for me'. I am of the philosophy that there is no such thing as a bad ship in the hands of a capable pilot.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Kamala Sakar
Doomheim
#4 - 2017-01-07 10:10:01 UTC
I think it might be because back in the days (before I started playing) the Rifter used to be the king of T1 combat Frigates and due to no longer being OP it's considered 'bad' by some players.

Personally I like it both for it's cool look and becuase it's a good ship.

Soon to be Trading Alt. All future Forum activities will be conducted by Akane Togenada who for all purposes and until further notice shall be considered the "Main" of this player.

Mike Adoulin
Happys Happy Hamster Hunting Club
#5 - 2017-01-07 10:17:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Adoulin
Once upon a time, before Tiericide (aka 'rebalancing'), most of the ships in EVE were...shall we say.........the suckage in PVP. Minmatar ships had the best advantages in PVP combat, and so most people flew Winmatar...um...Minmatar. And the best PVP T1 frigate in the entire game was...The Rifter.

So good that it was common to simply set orbit 500 meters, hit the microwarp, and push F1. Go make a sandwich, drink coffee, come back and scoop the loot.

The list of PVP-capable ships, in fact went something like this:

Rifter.

Drake / Hurricane (big argument over which was better)

Tempest/Maelstrom/Apocalypse

The rest were...suboptimal.......mostly.

Altho Sentry Dominix's were sometimes used as well.

AND THEN THE REBALANCE OCCURED.

The Rifter, while still Very Very Good, was no longer an 'I Win' ship.

Thus the tears began, and continue to this day.

Much the same thing occurred when the Drake and the Hurricane were nerfed...um...rebalanced.

Altho you can still get the Old Hurricane, it became the Hurricane Fleet Issue..>:)

Everything in EVE is a trap.

And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)

You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.

Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.

Reinhardt Kreiss
TetraVaal Tactical Group
#6 - 2017-01-07 10:23:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Reinhardt Kreiss
A few things.

1) the Rifter used to be godly: it was really fast, had a tracking bonus so it allowed for close range orbiting

2) everything else got buffed. All ships got faster apart from Minmatar ones, so these days the Rifter feels sluggish and kinda slow. All other weapon systems got buffed as well, projectiles got an indirect nerf so that's a bit of an issue.

3) due to its "new" falloff bonus it's kinda shoehorned into a scram kiting strategy. Not a problem as such but most people have no clue on what that is or how it really works. Most people can't really use it because it's almost by definition a solo strategy while the majority of fierce pvpers are of course just a herd of cows.

4) there's other frigates that do the scram kiting just as good or even better, while being faster and being less obvious about it.


So it's a combination of "bawww", "I'm clueless" and "meh, it can be done better". Doesn't mean it can't be done or that it's a really bad ship, it's just situational and for most situations there's probably a better alternative.
Salvos Rhoska
#7 - 2017-01-07 10:29:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Remiel Pollard wrote:
I am of the philosophy that there is no such thing as a bad ship in the hands of a capable pilot.


This is nonsense often claimed in games.

Ships are categorically defined by their stats.
They exist as their stats. No stats = no ship.

When a player flies that specific ship, it is under constraints of those stats.
Ergo, player capability is secondary to ship stats.

It is patently impossible and irrational to claim there exists perfect ship balance in EVE.
That would be the only premise where player capability would become primary, as all ship stats would be equal.

Given two pilots of equal capacity, ship stats decide.
This further reinforces that ship stats are primary, player capability is secondary.

No amount of capability of a player, can turn a "bad" ship, into a "good" one.
Maekchu
Doomheim
#8 - 2017-01-07 10:30:27 UTC
For solo PvP, the alternatives are just better. Which is maybe why, some people consider the Rifter being "bad".

So no, the Rifter is not bad per se. But it's not the king of T1 as it used to be. Lucky Minmatar still have the Breacher that is quite decent for solo.
Wanda Fayne
#9 - 2017-01-07 10:41:56 UTC
Being underestimated can be very good.

"your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic" -Lan Wang-

  • - "hub humping station gamey neutral logi warspam wankery" -Ralph King-Griffin-
Xayder
The Green Machine
Shadow Cartel
#10 - 2017-01-07 11:19:11 UTC
oooh 'member rifters?

I don't always post, But when i post I do it with my main

Kamala Sakar
Doomheim
#11 - 2017-01-07 11:22:16 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
I am of the philosophy that there is no such thing as a bad ship in the hands of a capable pilot.


This is nonsense often claimed in games.

Ships are categorically defined by their stats.
They exist as their stats. No stats = no ship.

When a player flies that specific ship, it is under constraints of those stats.
Ergo, player capability is secondary to ship stats.

It is patently impossible and irrational to claim there exists perfect ship balance in EVE.
That would be the only premise where player capability would become primary, as all ship stats would be equal.

Given two pilots of equal capacity, ship stats decide.
This further reinforces that ship stats are primary, player capability is secondary.

No amount of capability of a player, can turn a "bad" ship, into a "good" one.


I was under the impression that EVE PvP is more of a rock-paper-scissors kind of thing, is that wrong ?

Soon to be Trading Alt. All future Forum activities will be conducted by Akane Togenada who for all purposes and until further notice shall be considered the "Main" of this player.

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2017-01-07 11:25:25 UTC
Kamala Sakar wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
I am of the philosophy that there is no such thing as a bad ship in the hands of a capable pilot.


This is nonsense often claimed in games.

Ships are categorically defined by their stats.
They exist as their stats. No stats = no ship.

When a player flies that specific ship, it is under constraints of those stats.
Ergo, player capability is secondary to ship stats.

It is patently impossible and irrational to claim there exists perfect ship balance in EVE.
That would be the only premise where player capability would become primary, as all ship stats would be equal.

Given two pilots of equal capacity, ship stats decide.
This further reinforces that ship stats are primary, player capability is secondary.

No amount of capability of a player, can turn a "bad" ship, into a "good" one.


I was under the impression that EVE PvP is more of a rock-paper-scissors kind of thing, is that wrong ?


Very.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Fek Mercer
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2017-01-07 11:32:04 UTC
At the risk of our dear lord and saviour Max Trix locking this thread and saying this should now be in the feature suggestions forum, is there way of making the rifter stand out from other t1 frigs? as far as i can see, the rifter really has no stats that another t1 frig can't come close to, and then make up for in other bonuses. please correct me on that if i'm wrong though.
Salvos Rhoska
#14 - 2017-01-07 11:32:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Kamala Sakar wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
I am of the philosophy that there is no such thing as a bad ship in the hands of a capable pilot.


This is nonsense often claimed in games.

Ships are categorically defined by their stats.
They exist as their stats. No stats = no ship.

When a player flies that specific ship, it is under constraints of those stats.
Ergo, player capability is secondary to ship stats.

It is patently impossible and irrational to claim there exists perfect ship balance in EVE.
That would be the only premise where player capability would become primary, as all ship stats would be equal.

Given two pilots of equal capacity, ship stats decide.
This further reinforces that ship stats are primary, player capability is secondary.

No amount of capability of a player, can turn a "bad" ship, into a "good" one.


I was under the impression that EVE PvP is more of a rock-paper-scissors kind of thing, is that wrong ?


That is not wrong.

But it has nothing to do with player capability.
It has to do with ship balance.

Ship balance/stats makes it rock/scissor/paper.
You cant PvP in a capsule with SP or skills alone.
You need a ship. And those ships are defined by stats.

Hypothetical:
-If a player was to combat an exact copy of himself, in exactly the same ship/fit, same boosters and SP investment etc, the result would be a cascade of action/counter-reaction due to circumstances and the predilections of that player (as mirrored to his opponent, himself).

-In the same scenario above, if they fly different ships/fits, the ship/fit becomes the primary deciding factor between them.

Remiels argument is that a Lada can outperform a Ferrari, if the drivers are equally skilled, cos somehow magically the Lada driver can surpass the systemic limitations of his vehicle, whereas for some illogical reason the Ferrari driver cannot.

Its nonsense.

Its a typical trope through many many games, where largely 1v1 oriented players try to inflate their own ego and achievements over their opponents as perso al "skill", rather than recognizing that it is secondary to the stats of the instrument they are using.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2017-01-07 11:34:53 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
I am of the philosophy that there is no such thing as a bad ship in the hands of a capable pilot.


This is nonsense often claimed in games.

Ships are categorically defined by their stats.
They exist as their stats. No stats = no ship.

When a player flies that specific ship, it is under constraints of those stats.
Ergo, player capability is secondary to ship stats.

It is patently impossible and irrational to claim there exists perfect ship balance in EVE.
That would be the only premise where player capability would become primary, as all ship stats would be equal.

Given two pilots of equal capacity, ship stats decide.
This further reinforces that ship stats are primary, player capability is secondary.

No amount of capability of a player, can turn a "bad" ship, into a "good" one.


My killboard, up against yours, shows who the expert on ships and their capabilities is. You are also strawmanning me. I said, "there is no such thing as a bad ship in the hands of a capable pilot". Just because a Rifter loses a fight to an Ishkur, it doesn't make the Rifter a bad ship. The Rifter is EXPECTED to lose that engagement. If the Rifter, however, beats the Ishkur, that means either the Ishkur pilot is bad, the Rifter pilot is very good, or maybe a bit of both. Maybe, they're both good, and the Rifter pilot was just that much better.

Salvos, have you ever seen a Magnate kill an assault frigate? I have. Have you ever seen a Jaguar flying through the middle of a cap battle, in amongst smartbombing battleships, taking out fighters, and coming out if it intact with a few capital kms it whored on? I have. I've done those, and a lot of other things with ships that people wouldn't expect to be capable of doing what I've done with them.

No, Salvos, you don't dictate PVP to me, or anyone else, with your kb, you just don't. You have absolutely no demonstrable authority on the subject, and I can tell you from first hand experience that no single factor, be it piloting ability, or ship stats, or how many ships there are, is the deciding factor above any other factor in any engagement. All engagements are highly fluid, and two equally capable pilots are just as capable of making mistakes as the other, and if one in a 'superior' ship happens to make one, the one in the 'inferior' ship can use that to his or her advantage, and take the fight.

Again, though, my statement was, there are no bad ships in the hands of capable pilots. That is to say, there are no bad ships, and the best PVP'ers will agree with that statement. Even corvettes can do some scary stuff, especially in numbers, but think twice before messing with that solo Velator who just sent you a dual invite.

It could be my corpmate Brutal Wyrm, who has more than a few killmarks on his Velator.

We're not going to argue about this. Any replies will be ignored. Anyone can look up our kbs, Salvos, and see who the real expert is here. So I'll leave it at that. TL;DR I'm right and you're wrong, and I can prove it.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2017-01-07 11:36:38 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Kamala Sakar wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
I am of the philosophy that there is no such thing as a bad ship in the hands of a capable pilot.


This is nonsense often claimed in games.

Ships are categorically defined by their stats.
They exist as their stats. No stats = no ship.

When a player flies that specific ship, it is under constraints of those stats.
Ergo, player capability is secondary to ship stats.

It is patently impossible and irrational to claim there exists perfect ship balance in EVE.
That would be the only premise where player capability would become primary, as all ship stats would be equal.

Given two pilots of equal capacity, ship stats decide.
This further reinforces that ship stats are primary, player capability is secondary.

No amount of capability of a player, can turn a "bad" ship, into a "good" one.


I was under the impression that EVE PvP is more of a rock-paper-scissors kind of thing, is that wrong ?


That is not wrong.

But it has nothing to do with player capability.
It has to do with ship balance.

Ship balance/stats makes it rock/scissor/paper.
You cant PvP in a capsule with SP or skills alone.
You need a ship. And those ships are defined by stats.


It is wrong. There are far too many variables to call it rock-paper-scissors and I strongly encourage Kamala to ignore you on these forums and take PVP advice from actual PVP'ers instead.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2017-01-07 11:42:37 UTC
Fek Mercer wrote:
At the risk of our dear lord and saviour Max Trix locking this thread and saying this should now be in the feature suggestions forum, is there way of making the rifter stand out from other t1 frigs? as far as i can see, the rifter really has no stats that another t1 frig can't come close to, and then make up for in other bonuses. please correct me on that if i'm wrong though.


Do the other frigs have stats that the Rifter can't come close to? Off the top of my head, the Punisher's tank potential comes to mind, but you have to take a pretty big hit to dps to achieve that. Maybe the dps on the Incursus, but the Rifter can hold it at range outside of an Incursus optimal and still maintain good dps at optimal, because it still gets its range bonuses. On that note, a Rifter uses guns that don't require cap, so you can throw a neut on that util high, buffer tank it (hull or armour, either is fine) and be much more effective with it than any other racial gun frigate. That's just some thoughts off the top of my head. The Rifter is also still the fastest T1 frigate out there, apart from attack frigates, despite the fact that the others were made a little faster way back in the day.

They all have their pros and cons, tbh, and the Rifter is probably the most fragile T1. It is a good stepping stone into a Jaguar or Wolf though, which are both exceptional assault frigates in their own right.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Salvos Rhoska
#18 - 2017-01-07 11:56:45 UTC
The result of a 1v1 PvP encounter, is primarily decided by the ship/fit each is flying.

This is evidenced by the example where if both players are equally capable, the ship/fit is the underlying systemic factor which differentiates the outcome.

You cannot engage in combat PvP without a ship.
The ship defines the capacity of you to PvP.

Whether you are a more capable player, does not change the hardcoded stats of the ship/fit you chose.

No matter how capable a driver you are, that does not change the mechanical reality of the car you are driving.
No matter how capable a neurosurgeon you are, you cant perform brain surgery with a rock.
No matter how capable a nuclear engineer you are, you cant operate a nuclear facility with a bowl of overcooked spaghetti.

No matter how you fit a mining or exploration ship, you cannot destroy a dedicated PvP craft/fit.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2017-01-07 11:59:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
The result of a 1v1 PvP encounter, is primarily decided by the ship/fit each is flying.


Uhuh. Come tell us all about that when you've had a 1v1. It's funny, though, you keep confirming what I'm saying, that basically superior piloting makes the ship type redundant. You can talk about 'both pilots being equal' all you like. Tell that to the Talos I killed with my 8mil SP alt in a Slasher a couple of weeks ago, due to superior piloting. Salvos, you're quite simply wrong. The pilot ALWAYS makes the ship. Yes, both pilots being equal, the ship will determine the outcome, but both pilots are never equal, and the fact is if you put a bad pilot in a 'good' ship, and a good pilot in a 'bad' one, the good pilot will win.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Milana Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
#20 - 2017-01-07 12:07:15 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Tell that to the Talos I killed with my 8mil SP alt in a Slasher a couple of weeks ago, due to superior piloting.


That was me btw. o7 Blink
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