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Why do people say the rifter is bad?

Author
Salvos Rhoska
#121 - 2017-01-08 16:42:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Mr Mieyli wrote:
This is the point people are trying to get across to you, combat in eve is fluid with stats becoming more or less meaningful at different points in a fight. You can't simply argue 'stats are primary', without acknowledging that player skill influences the importance of the stats.


Player skill defines the practical application of those stats, secondarily as restricted by the primacy of those stats, as being hardcoded into the ship.

Nowhere have I said anything different despite repeated attempts by persons to imply otherwise.
Does skill matter? Yes.
Does it matter more than ship stats? No.
Why? Because those skills cannot overcome the ships stats, they are merely applied to them.

Ship stats are primary.
Player skills is secondary, as restricted by the above.

I really dont understand the resistance to this logical fact.
Its no skin off anyone's nose to acknowledge it.
It doesnt imply or mean anything except what is stated there.

In anycase, all of this is a tangent which is irrelevant to OP.

OP wants to ask whether rifters are bad.
He is not asking if players fly rifters badly.

He is asking about the ship itself, not about whether players are using it well.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#122 - 2017-01-08 16:50:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Mr Mieyli wrote:
This is the point people are trying to get across to you, combat in eve is fluid with stats becoming more or less meaningful at different points in a fight. You can't simply argue 'stats are primary', without acknowledging that player skill influences the importance of the stats.


Player skill defines the practical application of those stats, secondarily to the primacy of those stats, as being hardcoded into the ship.

Nowhere have I said anything different despite repeated attempts by persons to imply otherwise.

Ship stats are primary.
Player skills is secondary, as restricted by the above.


Continuously repeating yourself is not a refutation of the refutations of the claim you are repeating. Ship stats are a factor, but they are not the primary determining factor of a PVP outcome. This is coming from multiple people with PVP experience, Salvos, and you're acting like a petulant anti-vaxxer telling a biochemist how to do research, or that one percent of 'scientists' who deny climate change. No matter how you spin your 'logic', you are wrong on this, and demonstrably so.

Before you reply with nothing more but another repeat of your 'logic' again, you should know that I have already read what you are trying to say. It's not that I don't understand what you're trying to say, and it's not even that I disagree with what you are trying to say, but that what you are trying to say is quite simply wrong, and repeating it over and over and over and over and over and over like you're having a stroke won't change that.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Salvos Rhoska
#123 - 2017-01-08 16:51:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Ship stats are a factor, but they are not the primary determining factor of a PVP outcome.


Nowhere have I said that it is.
This is the second time you misrepresent me as having done so, when I have not.

I have simply said that ship stats are primary, and player capability is secondary, as it is restricted by the former.

You are misconstruing that to mean things it does not mean, in your own head.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#124 - 2017-01-08 16:54:54 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Ship stats are a factor, but they are not the primary determining factor of a PVP outcome.


Nowhere have I said that it is.
This is the second time you misrepresent me as having done so, when I have not.

I have simply said that ship stats are primary, and player capability is secondary, as it is restricted by the former.

You are misconstruing that to mean things it does not mean, in your own head.


That's exactly what you say when you say that it is more of a determining factor than pilot skill. EXACTLY what you're saying. There is no misrepresentation here. You are saying that in any given engagement, ship stats are more of a determining factor than pilot skill, which is demonstrably wrong.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#125 - 2017-01-08 16:56:28 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

Does skill matter? Yes.
Does it matter more than ship stats? No.
Why? Because those skills cannot overcome the ships stats, they are merely applied to them.

Ship stats are primary.
Player skills is secondary, as restricted by the above.

He is asking about the ship itself, not about whether players are using it well.


The OP question was answered on page 1; the rifter is not bad. You are dragging this thread on with this argument about whether ship stats are more important than player skills. Not everyone else, you.

Stats are not more important than skills, actual human player skills. Without these no amount of ship stats will help you. Your definition of primary and secondary are meaningless and are only confusing the discussion. If a player in a worse ship can beat a player in a better ship, then player skill is more important and thus primary, these events happen daily in eve so therefore skills matter more than stats.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.

Salvos Rhoska
#126 - 2017-01-08 16:56:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Ship stats are a factor, but they are not the primary determining factor of a PVP outcome.


Nowhere have I said that it is.
This is the second time you misrepresent me as having done so, when I have not.

I have simply said that ship stats are primary, and player capability is secondary, as it is restricted by the former.

You are misconstruing that to mean things it does not mean, in your own head.


That's exactly what you say when you say that it is more of a determining factor than pilot skill. EXACTLY what you're saying. There is no misrepresentation here. You are saying that in any given engagement, ship stats are more of a determining factor than pilot skill, which is demonstrably wrong.


I have not said it is a more determining factor.

You are misconstruing what I said.

I have said that player skill is restricted by ship stats, and hence secondary.

Nowhere, even once, have I said that to mean that ship balance is the only, or predominant determinant in a PvP outcome.

You are misreading me and implying things that are not there.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#127 - 2017-01-08 16:59:18 UTC
Salvos, at the end of the day, it comes down to this: you are trying to tell people who have been PVP'ing for years and can demonstrate that experience on their killboards how PVP works. And they are telling you you're wrong, based on that experience, experience you clearly don't have as is demonstrable by both your kb, and the consistently and demonstrably wrong things you post about PVP. Give it up, mate.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Salvos Rhoska
#128 - 2017-01-08 17:00:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Salvos, at the end of the day, it comes down to this: you are trying to tell people who have been PVP'ing for years and can demonstrate that experience on their killboards how PVP works. And they are telling you you're wrong, based on that experience, experience you clearly don't have as is demonstrable by both your kb, and the consistently and demonstrably wrong things you post about PVP. Give it up, mate.


Appeal to authority.
Ad-hominem.

Read my edit to the above post.

You are misconstruing and implying things that I have not said.
You are also, falsely, implying this is my only account or character.
Salvos Rhoska
#129 - 2017-01-08 17:05:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Mr Mieyli wrote:


The OP question was answered on page 1; the rifter is not bad. You are dragging this thread on with this argument about whether ship stats are more important than player skills. Not everyone else, you..


I am simply responding to posts addressed to me.
Im not dragging anything on, anymore than you are.

I have never argued that ship stats are more" important" than skill.
That is a false implication, and misrepresentation of what I have actually said.
I have merely pointed out the truth, which is since skill is restricted by ship stats, this means ship stats are primary.
Skills are applied to those stats, secondarily.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2017-01-08 17:06:14 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
tantrum


So go get your pvp toon and prove me wrong. Until then, we've nothing further to discuss, and as far as anyone can tell, you don't know **** about pvp.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Salvos Rhoska
#131 - 2017-01-08 17:10:22 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
tantrum


So go get your pvp toon and prove me wrong. Until then, we've nothing further to discuss, and as far as anyone can tell, you don't know **** about pvp.


Misquoting.
Ad-hominem.

Nor did you address even one argument in my post.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#132 - 2017-01-08 17:11:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
tantrum


So go get your pvp toon and prove me wrong. Until then, we've nothing further to discuss, and as far as anyone can tell, you don't know **** about pvp.


Misquoting.
Ad-hominem.

Nor did you address even one argument in my post.


Citing fallacies isn't an argument, it's trolling, which I'm pretty sure is all you've been doing from the start. And all the 'arguments' you've made have been refuted, and are refuted on a daily basis within the game itself by people who do actual PVP. Move on, Salvos, before the ISDs start charging you rent.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Salvos Rhoska
#133 - 2017-01-08 17:18:10 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:
If a player in a worse ship can beat a player in a better ship, then player skill is more important and thus primary, these events happen daily in eve so therefore skills matter more than stats.


A) This acknowledges that there are "worse" and "better" ships (allowing for asymmetric balance)
B) You conflate my statement of primacy, to mean primary in determining the outcome.
C) My only point, is that since ship stats restrict player capability, and capability is applied to ship stats, this systemically means ship stats are primary and skill is secondary.
D) People seem to be crucially misreading and misconstruing that to mean things it does infact not.

Do you understand?
Im not saying what you think I am, nor ever have been.
Salvos Rhoska
#134 - 2017-01-08 17:22:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
tantrum


So go get your pvp toon and prove me wrong. Until then, we've nothing further to discuss, and as far as anyone can tell, you don't know **** about pvp.


Misquoting.
Ad-hominem.

Nor did you address even one argument in my post.


Citing fallacies isn't an argument, it's trolling, which I'm pretty sure is all you've been doing from the start. And all the 'arguments' you've made have been refuted, and are refuted on a daily basis within the game itself by people who do actual PVP. Move on, Salvos, before the ISDs start charging you rent.


Fallacies cannot be argued, nor are they ever relevant to an argument.
Pointing them out as such is simply a statement of fact.

Using fallacies is a deliberate mechanism to destroy and subvert discussion, and hence by definition trolling in and of themselves. You have demonstrated that behavior repeatedly.

You arent an ISD, nor can you presume to dictate their action.
mkint
#135 - 2017-01-08 17:49:54 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
This guy still thinks he can tell PVP'ers how PVP works huh?


Appeal to authority.

No argument refuted.
Matter tabled.

Says he who has NO authority.

Let me play this "i heard using debate club jargon makes me sound smart" game:

Unsubstantiated claims, based on beliefs rather than demonstrable facts. If someone can PROVE that the better pilot is more likely to win, then your claims are ridiculous fantasy. That you have no experience to have ever even encountered those facts one way or the other, demonstrates that you have no authority on this topic and you're embarrassing yourself.


And because I'm such a super swell, guy, some advice: "It is better to be silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Salvos Rhoska
#136 - 2017-01-08 17:52:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
To explain my point by analogy:

-When one picks out a car to drive in, that car has a system of mechanical restrictions.
-No matter how good you are as a driver, you can never overcome those restrictions.
-No amount of skill can make that car do that which it mechanically cannot.
-The mechanical stats of that car, are hence primary, and incontrovertible and immutable.
-How well a given driver handles that car, is thus, defacto, secondary.
-The skills of that driver are applied to the action of that car, within the restrictions of that car.

This does not mean ship stats are more important than skill.

It just means that ship stats systemically underlie, mechanically, each and every PvP engagement.
This is furthermore the entire premise behind the asymmetric ship balance/stat system in EVE.
They are the primary factor, and the systemic lowest common denominator, in all ship combat.

Player skill is a secondary, subjective, mutable factor.
It is applied to a ships stats, secondarily, and restricted by that ships stats.

Ship balance, is not an issue of player skill.
It is a matter of ship stats.
This again shows that ship stats are primary.

The comparative skill, and hence resulting actions of a player in a given ship, vs another, in a given circumstance, certainly centrally determine the outcome, but ONLY as applied, secondarily, to the primary facts of the ships stats on both sides.

Am I making myself clear?
People have misread, misconstrued and misrepresented my position, and implied it to mean things it does not.
I hope I have articulated myself sufficiently to demonstrate this is not a controversial issue or position.
mkint
#137 - 2017-01-08 17:57:12 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
To explain my point by analogy:

-When one picks out a car to drive in, that car has a system of mechanical restrictions.
-No matter how good you are as a driver, you can never overcome those restrictions.
-No amount of skill can make that car do that which it mechanically cannot.
-The mechanical stats of that car, are hence primary, and incontrovertible and immutable.
-How well a given driver handles that car, is thus, defacto, secondary.
-The skills of that driver are applied to the action of that car, within the restrictions of that car.

see, for an analogy to be any good, it has to, you know, actually be good.

Counter analogy/question: which would win in a race, a geo metro with a rocket pack attached, or a ferrari with guns on it? Answer: The guy who's better at using the tools available to him.

See, we can all say stupid things.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Salvos Rhoska
#138 - 2017-01-08 18:12:45 UTC
I added elaboration and further explanation to my post above.
mkint
#139 - 2017-01-08 18:19:18 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

People have misread, misconstrued and misrepresented my position, and implied it to mean things it does not.
I hope I have articulated myself sufficiently to demonstrate this is not a controversial issue or position.

"Ship stats are primary"
"I never said ship stats are primary"
"I never said ship stats determine who wins a fight"
"Ship stats are primary"
"nobody understands me! I wanna go live with my dad!"

You are definitely NOT clear. Maybe... learn what words are? The more face you try to save, the more embarrassing your stance(?). Shoulda just bowed out with any remaining dignity 6 pages ago.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Salvos Rhoska
#140 - 2017-01-08 18:28:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
mkint wrote:

see, for an analogy to be any good, it has to, you know, actually be good.

Counter analogy/question: which would win in a race, a geo metro with a rocket pack attached, or a ferrari with guns on it? Answer: The guy who's better at using the tools available to him.

See, we can all say stupid things.


My analogy compares the primacy of the mechanical reality of a given vehicle, to the skills of its operator, as a secondary and dependent factor.

The car obviously will not drive itself. But no matter the skills of its driver, it cannot exceed the mechanical limitations that it has.
The skill of the operator is secondary to the capacity of the vehicle to deliver.
No matter how skilled the operator, the mechanical limitations of the vehicle cannot be exceeded.

This means the stats are primary, and operator skill, secondary.
Operator skill cannot overcome the vehicles limitations, are thus defined and restricted by them, and hence secondary to them.