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Remove immunity to cargo scanners from blockade runners
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13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#61 - 2016-10-19 16:27:05 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Piugattuk wrote:
I can honestly say I've never seen a blockade runner flying on auto (i'm sure it happens),.

It doesn't need to be an autopilotting BR. Some gankers specifically target blockade runners because it can't be scanned.

They do it for profit and because the scan immunity turns the ganking into a lucky dip game.

BR pilots that have instadock and instaundock bookmarks have no need to worry, but if you look a few pages in of the below killboard, you'll see the above by example in Jita (he hits other ships too, but always hits BRs that land just outside docking range and/or that align to warp on the undock; and ganks T1 haulers almost always when they a profitable):

https://zkillboard.com/character/93367623/

For smart BR pilots, the scan immunity provides no practical benefit on the ship. For non-smart ones, it makes the ship even more of a risk depending on destination.


My point exactly Big smile if you fly one of these into Jita your playing Russian roulette and probably deserve getting blasted for being foolish.

One thing over and over again had been said by some ehm....nice folk in EVE, adapt, I have taken this advice and structured my game to be more effective against the "bad guys" this includes flying stealthy ships including the BR, all the training time, the ISK invested into using the tools I have been given, now you want to change the ONLY line of ships in that class to suit your needs then why the hell did you bother to train for it, that's dopey.

There are OTHER choices if flying this ship doesn't suit you, who's the carebear here? Fly this ship accept the risk that someone will want to know badly enough what's inside or don't.
T-1's. T-2
Amarr -
-Bestower. - Impel
-Sigil

Caldari-
-Badger. -Bustard
-Tayra

Gallente- -Occator
-Epithal
-Iteron V
-Kryos
-Miasmos
-Nereus

Minmatar- -Mastodon
-Hoarder
-Mammoth
-Wreathe

Surely you can find something to suit your needs in this line up, pick one and go for it, leave the Blockade runners alone if it doesn't suit your style to "risk" that someone will gank you to know what you got, one thing about people who gank, they are going to do it or not, none of us have control over that, the fact that they can't see gives them a few seconds to decide if your worth taking a chance or wait for something the CAN see and WILL gank because they know the value because it's all they do and they become good at knowing a good Mark.



Im sorry but bestower and iteron are both god awful. Since most modules work on improving things in the percent category, buffer or active tanking them sucks since their base hps are so low, and cargo expanding them also sucks, because you've got no EHP.

Maybe if you're hauling something that worth only about 5 mil in 50k m^3 are these ships useful, otherwise they're terrible.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#62 - 2016-10-19 16:40:07 UTC
Nya Kittenheart wrote:
Dimitrios Bekas wrote:
To be honest, maybe CCP was drunk ...and forgot to put it on the DEEP SPACE TRANSPORTs instead they gave it to the Blockade Runners. I mean, it really makes Zero Sense to have such a Bonus on a Blockade Runner, and it would make 100% Sense to put it on the DSTs.

i would support that change


Sry i m confuse i believed this bonus to apply a big red dot on every blockade runner, and now you tell us you want to switch this bonus on an ever more expensive transport with less evasive capability ?

-Lets face it ,high sec gankers want this bonus to be removed ,because they cant predict if they are going to make profit from instablapping that ship or not.I'm not surprised, high sec gankers always want winning lottery ticket,too bad for them CCP has been wise enought to prevent this from happening.

-The bonus work as intended ,there is no reason to fix something that work perfectly fine.



Thats actually EXACTLY why it hsould be on DST

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#63 - 2016-10-19 17:18:23 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
13kr1d1 wrote:


That's an opinion. The inability to be scanned allows more options of flying it.


Such as?

13kr1d1 wrote:



If its not profitable, gankers will eventually stop. No one should be flying an unscannable ship if it costs them more than 1% of their isk to lose it.


And we lose a little more content in highsec. This isn't good for the game.
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#64 - 2016-10-19 17:54:29 UTC  |  Edited by: 13kr1d1
suicide ganking has always been nonsensically ridiculous content.

if they removed the bonus and people stopped, then content is removed.

if they removed the bonus and people didn't stop, then removal didn't matter.

People find it profitable to blow up a 130 mil ship with a sub 100 mil ship. Adding or removing Unscan will not change that, because in a war of attrition, the loss wins.

I'm seriously considering the possibility that this whine about immunity of cargo scanners is coming from poorer sections of the gank community who are frustrated at losing tornados and not getting a payout. Those with 100+ billion backing them are not complaining. The ganks will not stop if Unscan is removed. People will still find it valuable to blow up ships of greater value with lesser value.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#65 - 2016-10-19 18:49:23 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
suicide ganking has always been nonsensically ridiculous content.

if they removed the bonus and people stopped, then content is removed.

if they removed the bonus and people didn't stop, then removal didn't matter.

People find it profitable to blow up a 130 mil ship with a sub 100 mil ship. Adding or removing Unscan will not change that, because in a war of attrition, the loss wins.

I'm seriously considering the possibility that this whine about immunity of cargo scanners is coming from poorer sections of the gank community who are frustrated at losing tornados and not getting a payout. Those with 100+ billion backing them are not complaining. The ganks will not stop if Unscan is removed. People will still find it valuable to blow up ships of greater value with lesser value.


The difference would be the attacks would not be a random gamble. Random attacks based purely on luck is bad gameplay for both parties. These ships are already impossible to stop in highsec if flown well, they do not need immunity to scanners as it is both redundant and puts BR at a much higher risk while at the same time removes all the work that goes into target selection for gankers.

The grr ganker crowd defending this bonus are literally spiting their own face to hurt gankers. Everyone is getting a raw deal out of this bonus.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#66 - 2016-10-19 20:19:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
PopeUrban wrote:
Nah.

The scan immunity works for exactly the role the ship is intended to have. The cloak and speed make it good at running camps in low/null, but they don't make it remarkably better at running camps in hisec.

And a hisec camp isn't about catching a ship. It's about risk assessment.

Because anyone who really cares to can instantly lock and bump everything that comes through a gate easily long enough to scan, and hisec gates are some of the most heavily travelled with the greatest amount of cargo, it makes perfect sense that the blockade runner, a ship class designed around getting through blockades, has an innate defense against actions it would be stupid to have CONCORD respond to, like locking transport to have a peek while bumping that transport.

It pays for that advantage by having horrible tank and horrible cargo capacity, so IMO it is a fair tradeoff. It has tools to get through common camps in all areas of space, either by piloting, stealth, or simply being impossible to do the math on.

What a complete load of crap. Laughable crap too.

It's clear from your post that you have 0 experience using a blockade runner, so why post rubbish that just has no basis in reality?

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#67 - 2016-10-19 20:26:44 UTC
The Justice wrote:
Immunity for cargo scanners is a worthless and dangerous bonus. People are wasting their time gambling if a ship is worth to gank or not without knowing before shooting, while the hauler pilot has to make sure to use insta bookmarks to avoid being ganked. The bonus is simply good for nothing. I've heard gambling isnt very popular these days, so maybe have a look at this shipclass? I've both ganked and been ganked myself, and this change is not ment to keep people from doing so. Just make it so we got a choise instead of painting a big red target on all blockade runners in hisec.
Might want to switch it to bubble immunity or something, but that might be a little too OP(?).

Thoughts?Idea


scan proof or not, if you aren't warping point to point in a hauler you will be shot for just being a carebear.

if your wanting it bubble immune but not scan proof so gankers wont have to gamble, that's 2 completely different things as bubbles cant be used in highsec, and if your getting shot at in low and null, they wont gamble anyways as your just another killmail so being scan proof in low/null does nothing for you anyways.

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
PopeUrban
El Expedicion
Flames of Exile
#68 - 2016-10-19 20:48:20 UTC  |  Edited by: PopeUrban
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
PopeUrban wrote:
Nah.

The scan immunity works for exactly the role the ship is intended to have. The cloak and speed make it good at running camps in low/null, but they don't make it remarkably better at running camps in hisec.

And a hisec camp isn't about catching a ship. It's about risk assessment.

Because anyone who really cares to can instantly lock and bump everything that comes through a gate easily long enough to scan, and hisec gates are some of the most heavily travelled with the greatest amount of cargo, it makes perfect sense that the blockade runner, a ship class designed around getting through blockades, has an innate defense against actions it would be stupid to have CONCORD respond to, like locking transport to have a peek while bumping that transport.

It pays for that advantage by having horrible tank and horrible cargo capacity, so IMO it is a fair tradeoff. It has tools to get through common camps in all areas of space, either by piloting, stealth, or simply being impossible to do the math on.

What a complete load of crap. Laughable crap too.

It's clear from your post that you have 0 experience using a blockade runner, so why post rubbish that just has no basis in reality?


I fly a blockade runner for literally a billion to three billion worth of hisec cargo a week.

And I have lost only two of them.

In hisec.

To random bump camps with decloak drone swarms.

The fact is that if you're decloaked, which is ******* easy to do on a gate if you're after cloakers, the only thing preventing a blockade runner from being instapopped is the chance it might not be worth shooting.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#69 - 2016-10-19 20:54:45 UTC
Agondray wrote:
Scan proof or not, if you aren't warping point to point in a hauler you will be shot for just being a carebear.

The more I read the forums, the more I come to the realisation that many people post without real knowledge or relevant experience. They just post what they've read elsewhere, or because they have a hatred for some other form of play.

Go sit in Uedama, Niarja, Madirmilire or any other trade route system for an hour and you'll see how infrequently people get shot, even those autopiloting in haulers.

The reality doesn't match the level of scaremongering that occurs in the forum.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#70 - 2016-10-19 20:55:04 UTC
Quote:
People can be completely safe if they want to use proper bookmarks, so this Unscan is bad becauyse it encourages random attacks on those who don't fly completely safe!


I'm still not seeing a problem, or rather maybe I see a problem that people are overlooking in favor of bitching about Unscan. People can be perfectly safe in highsec with tricks that've been figured out which were not considered when the game was designed. As well, suicide ganking was not considered either when the game was designed.

Lets say Unscan goes away, you'll still have people shooting empty BRs because of the cost to the hauler. If you're a BR user and complaining about random attacks, you're not going to get attacked any less. If you're a ganker complaining about random attacks, then you're taking a risk and losing the gamble, as you should.

There is literally no substance to these arguments you're all making in favor of its removal.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
PopeUrban
El Expedicion
Flames of Exile
#71 - 2016-10-19 21:04:20 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Agondray wrote:
Scan proof or not, if you aren't warping point to point in a hauler you will be shot for just being a carebear.

The more I read the forums, the more I come to the realisation that many people post without real knowledge or relevant experience. They just post what they've read elsewhere, or because they have a hatred for some other form of play.

Go sit in Uedama, Niarja, Madirmilire or any other trade route system for an hour and you'll see how infrequently people get shot, even those autopiloting in haulers.

The reality doesn't match the level of scaremongering that occurs in the forum.


******* true.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#72 - 2016-10-19 21:28:46 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
Quote:
People can be completely safe if they want to use proper bookmarks, so this Unscan is bad becauyse it encourages random attacks on those who don't fly completely safe!


I'm still not seeing a problem, or rather maybe I see a problem that people are overlooking in favor of bitching about Unscan. People can be perfectly safe in highsec with tricks that've been figured out which were not considered when the game was designed. As well, suicide ganking was not considered either when the game was designed.

Lets say Unscan goes away, you'll still have people shooting empty BRs because of the cost to the hauler. If you're a BR user and complaining about random attacks, you're not going to get attacked any less. If you're a ganker complaining about random attacks, then you're taking a risk and losing the gamble, as you should.

There is literally no substance to these arguments you're all making in favor of its removal.


Actually you won't. Ship of choice to gank these BR is the nado and that is not a throw away asset.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#73 - 2016-10-19 21:30:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
PopeUrban wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
PopeUrban wrote:
Nah.

The scan immunity works for exactly the role the ship is intended to have. The cloak and speed make it good at running camps in low/null, but they don't make it remarkably better at running camps in hisec.

And a hisec camp isn't about catching a ship. It's about risk assessment.

Because anyone who really cares to can instantly lock and bump everything that comes through a gate easily long enough to scan, and hisec gates are some of the most heavily travelled with the greatest amount of cargo, it makes perfect sense that the blockade runner, a ship class designed around getting through blockades, has an innate defense against actions it would be stupid to have CONCORD respond to, like locking transport to have a peek while bumping that transport.

It pays for that advantage by having horrible tank and horrible cargo capacity, so IMO it is a fair tradeoff. It has tools to get through common camps in all areas of space, either by piloting, stealth, or simply being impossible to do the math on.

What a complete load of crap. Laughable crap too.

It's clear from your post that you have 0 experience using a blockade runner, so why post rubbish that just has no basis in reality?


I fly a blockade runner for literally a billion to three billion worth of hisec cargo a week.

And I have lost only two of them.

In hisec.

To random bump camps with decloak drone swarms.

The fact is that if you're decloaked, which is ******* easy to do on a gate if you're after cloakers, the only thing preventing a blockade runner from being instapopped is the chance it might not be worth shooting.

Highsec ganker gate camps using drone swarms to decloak random blockade runners?

What were the dates of these losses?

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
PopeUrban
El Expedicion
Flames of Exile
#74 - 2016-10-19 21:44:12 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
PopeUrban wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
PopeUrban wrote:
Nah.

The scan immunity works for exactly the role the ship is intended to have. The cloak and speed make it good at running camps in low/null, but they don't make it remarkably better at running camps in hisec.

And a hisec camp isn't about catching a ship. It's about risk assessment.

Because anyone who really cares to can instantly lock and bump everything that comes through a gate easily long enough to scan, and hisec gates are some of the most heavily travelled with the greatest amount of cargo, it makes perfect sense that the blockade runner, a ship class designed around getting through blockades, has an innate defense against actions it would be stupid to have CONCORD respond to, like locking transport to have a peek while bumping that transport.

It pays for that advantage by having horrible tank and horrible cargo capacity, so IMO it is a fair tradeoff. It has tools to get through common camps in all areas of space, either by piloting, stealth, or simply being impossible to do the math on.

What a complete load of crap. Laughable crap too.

It's clear from your post that you have 0 experience using a blockade runner, so why post rubbish that just has no basis in reality?


I fly a blockade runner for literally a billion to three billion worth of hisec cargo a week.

And I have lost only two of them.

In hisec.

To random bump camps with decloak drone swarms.

The fact is that if you're decloaked, which is ******* easy to do on a gate if you're after cloakers, the only thing preventing a blockade runner from being instapopped is the chance it might not be worth shooting.

Highsec ganker gate camps using drone swarms to decloak random blockade runners?

What were the dates of these losses?


Not 100% sure, but it was when industry teams were still a thing if I remember right. Needless to say it was... surprising.

Blockade runners in most any other situation are pretty safe in hisec (which is why I trained them on my hauler for this cargo) if you've got low mass/high value ****. bad for ore, great for researched BPs, expensive modules, etc.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#75 - 2016-10-19 21:46:57 UTC
PopeUrban wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
PopeUrban wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
PopeUrban wrote:
Nah.

The scan immunity works for exactly the role the ship is intended to have. The cloak and speed make it good at running camps in low/null, but they don't make it remarkably better at running camps in hisec.

And a hisec camp isn't about catching a ship. It's about risk assessment.

Because anyone who really cares to can instantly lock and bump everything that comes through a gate easily long enough to scan, and hisec gates are some of the most heavily travelled with the greatest amount of cargo, it makes perfect sense that the blockade runner, a ship class designed around getting through blockades, has an innate defense against actions it would be stupid to have CONCORD respond to, like locking transport to have a peek while bumping that transport.

It pays for that advantage by having horrible tank and horrible cargo capacity, so IMO it is a fair tradeoff. It has tools to get through common camps in all areas of space, either by piloting, stealth, or simply being impossible to do the math on.

What a complete load of crap. Laughable crap too.

It's clear from your post that you have 0 experience using a blockade runner, so why post rubbish that just has no basis in reality?


I fly a blockade runner for literally a billion to three billion worth of hisec cargo a week.

And I have lost only two of them.

In hisec.

To random bump camps with decloak drone swarms.

The fact is that if you're decloaked, which is ******* easy to do on a gate if you're after cloakers, the only thing preventing a blockade runner from being instapopped is the chance it might not be worth shooting.

Highsec ganker gate camps using drone swarms to decloak random blockade runners?

What were the dates of these losses?


Not 100% sure, but it was when industry teams were still a thing if I remember right. Needless to say it was... surprising.

Blockade runners in most any other situation are pretty safe in hisec (which is why I trained them on my hauler for this cargo) if you've got low mass/high value ****. bad for ore, great for researched BPs, expensive modules, etc.

I'm not asking for the name and it's easy information for you to get.

Either in game from the lossmails in your combat log, or on a killboard.

Just the dates.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
PopeUrban
El Expedicion
Flames of Exile
#76 - 2016-10-19 21:53:47 UTC
Going to be honest with you, your interest in finding a relatively uncommon kill, on a specific date, smells suspiciously like someone attempting to get an ID on my hauler pilot.

And that's my money.

So no.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#77 - 2016-10-19 21:58:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
PopeUrban wrote:
Going to be honest with you, your interest in finding a relatively uncommon kill, on a specific date, smells suspiciously like someone attempting to get an ID on my hauler pilot.

And that's my money.

So no.

No, not at all.

This is the first time anyone has ever claimed gate camping gank groups using drones to decloak blockade runners at random in highsec.

It's surprising on a number of levels.

I just want to confirm the claim, because unless it can be confirmed, it sits in the BS category for the sole reason that no one else has claimed ever experiencing this; and it's never popped up in my killboard stats analysis program. So either it didn't happen, or I have some additional code to write to be able to identify this for my own hauling.

I don't really care who your hauling character is. I'm a hauler and have no interest in other haulers. I have an interest in my own safety and identifying who these gankers are that are using drone boats.

This is why I haven't asked for the killmails, nor pilot name. Just provide the dates and the CREST data will help identify the gankers.

So you can either prove it with the dates, or you can't.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
PopeUrban
El Expedicion
Flames of Exile
#78 - 2016-10-19 22:00:29 UTC
In this instance, I am completely fine with you simply calling it BS. So have at it. o7
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#79 - 2016-10-19 22:00:45 UTC
PopeUrban wrote:
Going to be honest with you, your interest in finding a relatively uncommon kill, on a specific date, smells suspiciously like someone attempting to get an ID on my hauler pilot.

And that's my money.

So no.


Tactic doesn't work anyway. Drones don't decloak you and BR align faster than your average frigate.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#80 - 2016-10-19 22:02:49 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
PopeUrban wrote:
Going to be honest with you, your interest in finding a relatively uncommon kill, on a specific date, smells suspiciously like someone attempting to get an ID on my hauler pilot.

And that's my money.

So no.


Tactic doesn't work anyway. Drones don't decloak you and BR align faster than your average frigate.

This exactly. It's why it is such a surprising claim.

It smacks of BS.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."