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Remove immunity to cargo scanners from blockade runners

Author
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#41 - 2016-10-17 19:24:09 UTC
Bad Pennyy wrote:


But complaining about the risk/uncertainty in making targeting decisions seems... unEVEish. Given the current status quo, esp in high sec., it doesn't seem sporting that gankers need even more info / help?


unEvEish

AttentionAttentionAttention

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--Unscannable Gadget

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#42 - 2016-10-17 19:34:45 UTC
The Justice wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:


For smart BR pilots, the scan immunity provides no practical benefit on the ship. For non-smart ones, it makes the ship even more of a risk depending on destination.


Pretty much this.


Yes, it imposes a cost for imprudence.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

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Cicirus
Debug the CODE
#43 - 2016-10-17 19:36:16 UTC
Bad Pennyy wrote:


I love having this bonus. But, I'd trade it for the ability to fit a spectrum breaker to this class and DSTs. But some low volume hauls are very expensive hauls and the immunity offsets the overall lack of EHP etc.

But complaining about the risk/uncertainty in making targeting decisions seems... unEVEish. Given the current status quo, esp in high sec., it doesn't seem sporting that gankers need even more info / help?


I know - God forbid a ganker has a tuff time or has to lift a finger to rob someone...Here's let's remove the Covert Ops Cloak too and then just start paying a tax\tribute\vig to travel at all? How's that pye-rates - that make you happy...Blink
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#44 - 2016-10-17 19:50:59 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
The Justice wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:


For smart BR pilots, the scan immunity provides no practical benefit on the ship. For non-smart ones, it makes the ship even more of a risk depending on destination.


Pretty much this.


CCP Fozzie wrote:

And on cargo scanner immunity, I completely agree that the bonus is more powerful (too powerful when combined with everything else) on the Deep Space Transports, and that it can be a liability for some autopiloting BRs. However it can be a useful tool for carrying extremely high value cargos and it fits so perfectly with the thematic role of the Blockade Runners that I am quite hesitant to remove it completely.

Haha, so cute.

Quoting Fozzie like he has a clue about anything to do with hauling.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#45 - 2016-10-18 01:18:57 UTC
Cicirus wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

The cargo scan immunity is the nerf. It has made every blockade runner less safe because the attacks are now random as opposed to being based upon isk value.


Spoken like a true pirate albeit a poor one at that...Cry

Who writes this stuff for ya'??? Seriously??? MORE DANGEROUS??? LOLOLOL...here's the thing my lil pirate toddler - if you're the one NOT flying the BR, then why would you care - doesn't hurt you ESPECIALLY given it's not actually more dangerous...well at least not for GOOD pilots. And if you are flying the BR, then simply put in your description "I HAVE ISK ON BOARD" and be done with it. And then of course you could just NOT FLY A BR...Yeah I guess you forgot that there are other cargo ships...DOH...Shocked

Nice try though - I'm sure some small number of folks out there will believe this crazy pirate FUD...(queue talking parrot now) Pirate

baltec1 wrote:

It wasn't broken in the first place, no it is because CCP changed the risk from don't get caught with a high value cargo to just don't get caught. Gankers and haulers came off worse with this change, a change that was entirely unnecessary.


Oh poor you - gankers came off worse??? Really - awww the big bad CCP made it harder for you to steal shtuff??? Awww how dare they...they took your candy...DUDE - is your lip quivering? Is your diapy dirty??? Listen bro-squeemish...Be a BETTUH PYE-RATE or GET A NEW JOB...either way you do need to lose the big rubber sucky thing...it's unbecoming...X

Nuff sed - Game set match CHAMPIONSHIP - Im done here...TwistedTwistedTwisted


You sound like a moron.

I use these things to transport several billion in probes, I used to be able to leave it uncloaked on a gate when it was empty now I cant because idiots like you went and whined to CCP who then made the ganks randomised. Its **** for haulers and its **** for gankers because rather than actually spend time and effort trying to scan these ships before they gank they just blap them on sight and prey there is a payout.

Gankers put in less work and effort than before, haulers cant ever let their guard down. You got the exact opposite to what you want out of this change.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#46 - 2016-10-18 03:36:34 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Cicirus wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

The cargo scan immunity is the nerf. It has made every blockade runner less safe because the attacks are now random as opposed to being based upon isk value.


Spoken like a true pirate albeit a poor one at that...Cry

Who writes this stuff for ya'??? Seriously??? MORE DANGEROUS??? LOLOLOL...here's the thing my lil pirate toddler - if you're the one NOT flying the BR, then why would you care - doesn't hurt you ESPECIALLY given it's not actually more dangerous...well at least not for GOOD pilots. And if you are flying the BR, then simply put in your description "I HAVE ISK ON BOARD" and be done with it. And then of course you could just NOT FLY A BR...Yeah I guess you forgot that there are other cargo ships...DOH...Shocked

Nice try though - I'm sure some small number of folks out there will believe this crazy pirate FUD...(queue talking parrot now) Pirate

baltec1 wrote:

It wasn't broken in the first place, no it is because CCP changed the risk from don't get caught with a high value cargo to just don't get caught. Gankers and haulers came off worse with this change, a change that was entirely unnecessary.


Oh poor you - gankers came off worse??? Really - awww the big bad CCP made it harder for you to steal shtuff??? Awww how dare they...they took your candy...DUDE - is your lip quivering? Is your diapy dirty??? Listen bro-squeemish...Be a BETTUH PYE-RATE or GET A NEW JOB...either way you do need to lose the big rubber sucky thing...it's unbecoming...X

Nuff sed - Game set match CHAMPIONSHIP - Im done here...TwistedTwistedTwisted


You sound like a moron.

I use these things to transport several billion in probes, I used to be able to leave it uncloaked on a gate when it was empty now I cant because idiots like you went and whined to CCP who then made the ganks randomised. Its **** for haulers and its **** for gankers because rather than actually spend time and effort trying to scan these ships before they gank they just blap them on sight and prey there is a payout.

Gankers put in less work and effort than before, haulers cant ever let their guard down. You got the exact opposite to what you want out of this change.

You got it almost right. That first line should have been:

'You are a moron'

@Cicirus, here's the way to use a blockade runner properly:

1. setup instadock bookmark at destination
2. setup instaundock bookmark at starting station
3. get in BR and load it
4. undock and warp to instaundock. Cloak in warp
5. warp and jump gate
6. select next gate
7. Press 'D' press 'F1'
8. Repeat 6 and 7 until arrive at final system
9. Warp to instadock, cloak, press Autopilot

At no point is the BR scannable, lockable or in other way in danger.

That is, being unscannable is a completely redundant and unnecessary bonus, because all of the safety and inability to scan is provided by the cloak.

However, for those people that don't use a BR properly, and who sit on a station or gate uncloaked, the scan immunity actually puts them at greater risk of being ganked, not less.

There was no need to come here whinging and whining, shedding tears everywhere about mean old gankers. Those here that gank (including the OP) wouldn't gain anymore advantage from this than those of us that haul cargo.

The net outcome of a change would be greater safety for incompetent pilots who wouldn't be randomly ganked while empty.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Renfus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#47 - 2016-10-18 06:46:53 UTC
I agree with ya..
Get rid of the cargo scan immunity and make them interdiction nullified..

((( Alliance Creation ))) Corp Update Service available ( 10,600 Member limit ). ++ Free with Alliance Creation ++ Contact me In-Game.

Piugattuk
Lone Star Warriors
Evictus.
#48 - 2016-10-18 07:48:21 UTC



"However, for those people that don't use a BR properly, and who sit on a station or gate uncloaked, the scan immunity actually puts them at greater risk of being ganked, not less"

You can't fix some folks....you do realize this don't you, EVE is a place where mistakes and dumb blunders have consequences.


"I use these things to transport several billion in probes, I used to be able to leave it uncloaked on a gate when it was empty now I cant because idiots like you went and whined to CCP who then made the ganks randomised"

And don't get me started with this, you leave an industrial (weak), ship that a favorite of people looking for lulz sitting at a jump gate or station, empty or otherwise, scannable or not you are asking to be popped...because this IS eve no?




I really can't believe you 2, are you 2 actually posting this, you do realize what your posting and using derogatory terms towards others...I'm face palming Arrow
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#49 - 2016-10-18 09:17:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Piugattuk wrote:
I really can't believe you 2, are you 2 actually posting this, you do realize what your posting and using derogatory terms towards others...I'm face palming Arrow

What do derogatory terms have to do with anything? Facts are facts regardless; and Cicirus has received like for like. Nothing more.

As for fixing folks, this forum isn't about fixing folks. It's about feature and idea suggestions for the game and discussion around that.

This is an idea posted by the OP and the thread is discussing advantages/disadvantages of same.

I'm not in favour of his idea, but that doesn't mean I have to accept every stupid counter argument, especially those based of fantasies in people heads rather than evidence.

So **** off if you can't handle discussion. It's not compulsory to be here.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#50 - 2016-10-18 09:22:22 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:


And don't get me started with this, you leave an industrial (weak), ship that a favorite of people looking for lulz sitting at a jump gate or station, empty or otherwise, scannable or not you are asking to be popped...because this IS eve no?


It used to be that you could do this, you still can with every other hauler and be safe. These "evil indiscriminate gankers that shoot everything" didn't really exist before CCP forced ganking into a corner with changes like this that make zero sense.

Piugattuk wrote:

I really can't believe you 2, are you 2 actually posting this, you do realize what your posting and using derogatory terms towards others...I'm face palming Arrow


You reap what you sow. Don't want me calling you an idiot? Then don't post like Cicirus just did.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#51 - 2016-10-18 11:02:57 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
That is, being unscannable is a completely redundant and unnecessary bonus, because all of the safety and inability to scan is provided by the cloak.

However, for those people that don't use a BR properly, and who sit on a station or gate uncloaked, the scan immunity actually puts them at greater risk of being ganked, not less.

There was no need to come here whinging and whining, shedding tears everywhere about mean old gankers. Those here that gank (including the OP) wouldn't gain anymore advantage from this than those of us that haul cargo.

The net outcome of a change would be greater safety for incompetent pilots who wouldn't be randomly ganked while empty.

As stated before, the bonus in combination with the mentality of the average ganker actually means that your ship is safer if you pilot it actively versus unsafer if you pilot it manually. I think this is a quite acceptable situation that actually rewards active hauling versus passive hauling and also does not hurt gankers because they get a good killmail out of it regardless whether the ship was empty or not. I do not see why more safety for incompetent haulers should be a thing.

An insta undock does not guarantee that you won't be scanned either. I just had a situation a couple of days ago when I undocked in Jita with a fully expanded BR (because contract volume). I must have waited just a second or two too long (had to adjust the camera from an abysmal angle from before the docking. Thanks CCP for that, by the way) because I did not warp instantly to my perfectly aligned undock spot but started aligning to it instead as I started drifting off in a random direction. Gave me quite the heart attack.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2016-10-18 11:04:46 UTC
Honestly I don't think that removing the cargo scan immunity changes anything in either direction. Even if you were to remove the scan immunity, what changes? That people might stop for a few seconds, scan, copy, paste, analyze the EvEpraisal report, then decide?

Blockade Runners are fast and cloaky. Someone's going to shoot an uncloaked one because it might cloak at any second. Even if it doesn't, it's only two seconds to warping away and on the other side of the star system before you can align to chase it. You don't have time to think about it.

Yes, there's a case to be made about if the guy is autopiloting...but people who autopilot get ganked frequently regardless. Empty shuttles and empty pods especially. So, what changes if it's a BR that can be scanned? There's still a good chance someone will pop it regardless, and especially because it's an expensive ship.

Pointing out that the bonus is redundant is okay. But I can't see anything changing if it were removed either.
Gadget Helmsdottir
Gadget's Workshop
#53 - 2016-10-18 12:45:56 UTC
Throw my lot in with "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

The unscannable ability might be redundant, but it's not hurting anything to be there.
And it thematically fits, so that's a pro to keep it as-is.

Honestly, removing it would be a waste of resources.

-1

--Gadget

Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist

Given an hour to save New Eden, how would respected scientist, Albertus Eisenstein compose his thoughts? "Fifty-five minutes to define the problem; save the galaxy in five."

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#54 - 2016-10-18 17:21:55 UTC
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
Throw my lot in with "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

The unscannable ability might be redundant, but it's not hurting anything to be there.
And it thematically fits, so that's a pro to keep it as-is.

Honestly, removing it would be a waste of resources.

-1

--Gadget


It means ganks are random as opposed to targeted. This means gankers are just gambling rather than putting in the time and effort to scan these ships to see if they are viable targets. This also means every blockade runner is now put at more risk even if you have no cargo.

Both gankers and haulers got nerfed with this change.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#55 - 2016-10-18 17:57:17 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
That is, being unscannable is a completely redundant and unnecessary bonus, because all of the safety and inability to scan is provided by the cloak.

However, for those people that don't use a BR properly, and who sit on a station or gate uncloaked, the scan immunity actually puts them at greater risk of being ganked, not less.

There was no need to come here whinging and whining, shedding tears everywhere about mean old gankers. Those here that gank (including the OP) wouldn't gain anymore advantage from this than those of us that haul cargo.

The net outcome of a change would be greater safety for incompetent pilots who wouldn't be randomly ganked while empty.

As stated before, the bonus in combination with the mentality of the average ganker actually means that your ship is safer if you pilot it actively versus unsafer if you pilot it manually. I think this is a quite acceptable situation that actually rewards active hauling versus passive hauling and also does not hurt gankers because they get a good killmail out of it regardless whether the ship was empty or not. I do not see why more safety for incompetent haulers should be a thing.

An insta undock does not guarantee that you won't be scanned either. I just had a situation a couple of days ago when I undocked in Jita with a fully expanded BR (because contract volume). I must have waited just a second or two too long (had to adjust the camera from an abysmal angle from before the docking. Thanks CCP for that, by the way) because I did not warp instantly to my perfectly aligned undock spot but started aligning to it instead as I started drifting off in a random direction. Gave me quite the heart attack.

What? An instaundock does guarantee you won't be scanned.

Not warping immediately to it isn't how to use an instaundock. Undock, zoom out, right click, warp. Can't be scanned if you use it properly.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

PopeUrban
El Expedicion
Flames of Exile
#56 - 2016-10-18 20:51:35 UTC  |  Edited by: PopeUrban
Nah.

The scan immunity works for exactly the role the ship is intended to have. The cloak and speed make it good at running camps in low/null, but they don't make it remarkably better at running camps in hisec.

And a hisec camp isn't about catching a ship. It's about risk assessment.

Because anyone who really cares to can instantly lock and bump everything that comes through a gate easily long enough to scan, and hisec gates are some of the most heavily travelled with the greatest amount of cargo, it makes perfect sense that the blockade runner, a ship class designed around getting through blockades, has an innate defense against actions it would be stupid to have CONCORD respond to, like locking transport to have a peek while bumping that transport.

It pays for that advantage by having horrible tank and horrible cargo capacity, so IMO it is a fair tradeoff. It has tools to get through common camps in all areas of space, either by piloting, stealth, or simply being impossible to do the math on.
The Justice
Meep Beep Logistics
Meep Beep Empire
#57 - 2016-10-18 21:09:24 UTC
Removing the bonus wouldnt change much except pilots being able to undock and chill without being in a pod when you come back. A ship that cant float in space without getting randomly ganked doesnt really makes much sense. Tbh this thread has been quite good so far, and I totally understand that people think differently. After reading through most arguments against though it seems some people refuse to see the main issue. Its not about good or bad piloting, its about being forced to be "good at hauling" using bookmarks and stay active during the whole trip, or garanteed death as someone will shoot you. Theres absolutely no other way using blockade runners in hisec. CCP introduced a bonus that is "use cloak and instas or die". Like Baltec points out here; its a waste for both parties when (and not if) it gets ganked.
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#58 - 2016-10-19 03:55:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
PopeUrban wrote:

And a hisec camp isn't about catching a ship. It's about risk assessment.



With the unscan role it is catching the ship. We seem to know different gankers/ganker styles.

Ones I know shoot first, ask questions later. Besides BR other ships are liked for "stealth" or speed. ye old plex carrying noob ship. these have decent align times. best to just target and kill them. Sometimes you get lucky. Like 2-3 weeks ago. Was waiting for an AT kb post to see what was on someones flagsheep (ccp antiquarian gets mod props for that misspeak...lol). This alliance was looking to have a bad week. Lost their flagsheep and as I saw thier alliance KB...they lost a plex carrying noob ship. 16+ billion iirc.

These are the empire gankers I know, some personally. They see noob ship, inty, they see SB, they see transport ship. They go we got little time to do anything with these ships. They drop them.....

Basically this bonus is contentious. I will grant for some the no scan works out well. Its hidden an expensive load. However I also see Baltec and others stances as its also made the more aggressive gankers change meta. they kill you because they have to in those precious seconds they have.

This change made it bad for Br pilots with empty ships. Or ships with "crap". I take my expensive stuff to Jita. I haul back cheap crap like t2 ammo. I'd rather be scannable. If lazy or sloppy...I deserver to die on the way to Jita. My issue is in the way back they opt to kill me because I can't be scanned. Whats he got they go. And I could die for maybe 10 mil in t2 ammo.
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2016-10-19 15:57:33 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
Let me recap.
Cannot be scanned because cloaked most of the time.
Never in one place long enough to be scanned.

One has to ask why are we even discussing a bonus that is simply worthless in your opinion?

If you cannot scan because cloaked then the bonus has no affect on the situation so why does it bother you that these ships have it?

If they are never in one place long enough to be scanned, again why does it bother you that these ships have it?

You all think it is worthless, I disagree. Traffic control delay's and just plain bad luck on the Jita gates have put me at risk on more than a few occasions and there is no doubt that immunity to cargo scanning has been a part of why I have, at least to this point been able to avoid being ganked at those gates. There are after all a lot of gankers that will not roll the dice on a ship when they know nothing about what may or may not be in your cargo hold.


TBH getting a scan on these ships is so hard that you should be rewarded with a scan result if you do manage to lock it. Equally flying these things so badly should come with the punishment of being scannable.


That's an opinion. The inability to be scanned allows more options of flying it.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices

13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#60 - 2016-10-19 16:16:36 UTC  |  Edited by: 13kr1d1
baltec1 wrote:
Gadget Helmsdottir wrote:
Throw my lot in with "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

The unscannable ability might be redundant, but it's not hurting anything to be there.
And it thematically fits, so that's a pro to keep it as-is.

Honestly, removing it would be a waste of resources.

-1

--Gadget


It means ganks are random as opposed to targeted. This means gankers are just gambling rather than putting in the time and effort to scan these ships to see if they are viable targets. This also means every blockade runner is now put at more risk even if you have no cargo.

Both gankers and haulers got nerfed with this change.



If its not profitable, gankers will eventually stop. No one should be flying an unscannable ship if it costs them more than 1% of their isk to lose it.

Khan Wrenth wrote:
Honestly I don't think that removing the cargo scan immunity changes anything in either direction. Even if you were to remove the scan immunity, what changes? That people might stop for a few seconds, scan, copy, paste, analyze the EvEpraisal report, then decide?

Blockade Runners are fast and cloaky. Someone's going to shoot an uncloaked one because it might cloak at any second. Even if it doesn't, it's only two seconds to warping away and on the other side of the star system before you can align to chase it. You don't have time to think about it.

Yes, there's a case to be made about if the guy is autopiloting...but people who autopilot get ganked frequently regardless. Empty shuttles and empty pods especially. So, what changes if it's a BR that can be scanned? There's still a good chance someone will pop it regardless, and especially because it's an expensive ship.

Pointing out that the bonus is redundant is okay. But I can't see anything changing if it were removed either.



Further to the point, BRs are unhappy about getting ganked and losign an expensive ship, then what does it HELP to remove the unscannable?

if you remove it, people will still randomly gank BRs because of the cost of losing it, if it outweighs the cost of ganking it, even empty. So what changes? Nothing.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices