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Remove immunity to cargo scanners from blockade runners

Author
PopeUrban
El Expedicion
Flames of Exile
#81 - 2016-10-19 22:06:15 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
PopeUrban wrote:
Going to be honest with you, your interest in finding a relatively uncommon kill, on a specific date, smells suspiciously like someone attempting to get an ID on my hauler pilot.

And that's my money.

So no.


Tactic doesn't work anyway. Drones don't decloak you and BR align faster than your average frigate.


This is fantastic news that I was unaware of. Is that why I don't see drone-on-ceptor bubble camps any more too?
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#82 - 2016-10-19 22:06:45 UTC
PopeUrban wrote:
In this instance, I simply cannot prove what I'm saying. So have at it. o7

This is what you should have written.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#83 - 2016-10-19 22:07:13 UTC
PopeUrban wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
PopeUrban wrote:
Going to be honest with you, your interest in finding a relatively uncommon kill, on a specific date, smells suspiciously like someone attempting to get an ID on my hauler pilot.

And that's my money.

So no.


Tactic doesn't work anyway. Drones don't decloak you and BR align faster than your average frigate.


This is fantastic news that I was unaware of. Is that why I don't see drone-on-ceptor bubble camps any more too?


Correct, drones have not worked for decloaking for a long time now.
PopeUrban
El Expedicion
Flames of Exile
#84 - 2016-10-19 22:21:58 UTC
Well I learned something!

So, in theory, the only time you could reasonably lock up and scan a BR at this point is if its leaving a station really, assuming it doesn't have an instawarp.

I mean it kinda makes the bonus worth less I guess, but back to the point of the thread... is there a really a good argument for removing it other than letting people be lazy?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#85 - 2016-10-19 22:27:30 UTC
PopeUrban wrote:
Well I learned something!

So, in theory, the only time you could reasonably lock up and scan a BR at this point is if its leaving a station really, assuming it doesn't have an instawarp.

I mean it kinda makes the bonus worth less I guess, but back to the point of the thread... is there a really a good argument for removing it other than letting people be lazy?


It means gankers take the time to scan their targets rather than just F1 and prey. Thats good for both sides.
PopeUrban
El Expedicion
Flames of Exile
#86 - 2016-10-19 22:36:40 UTC  |  Edited by: PopeUrban
baltec1 wrote:
PopeUrban wrote:
Well I learned something!

So, in theory, the only time you could reasonably lock up and scan a BR at this point is if its leaving a station really, assuming it doesn't have an instawarp.

I mean it kinda makes the bonus worth less I guess, but back to the point of the thread... is there a really a good argument for removing it other than letting people be lazy?


It means gankers take the time to scan their targets rather than just F1 and prey. Thats good for both sides.


Curious about your opinion on passive targeters.

edit:

Specifically, passive targeters versus active tanking on cargo ships.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#87 - 2016-10-19 22:41:14 UTC
PopeUrban wrote:


Curious about your opinion on passive targeters.


Only used on scanning ships in highsec, can be tricky if you are not concentrating. The ships using them tend to stick out like a sore thumb though as they use sebos which make them super obvious.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#88 - 2016-10-19 22:46:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
PopeUrban wrote:
Well I learned something!

So, in theory, the only time you could reasonably lock up and scan a BR at this point is if its leaving a station really, assuming it doesn't have an instawarp.

I mean it kinda makes the bonus worth less I guess, but back to the point of the thread... is there a really a good argument for removing it other than letting people be lazy?

This is exactly what I wrote earlier, although they can also be locked up when approaching a station too, if they don't have an instadock. Warping to 0 can land up to 2500m outside 0, allowing gankers to lack and kill BRs reaching their destination.

I'm not at all advocating for its removal in favour of interdiction nullification. That would be just way too OP for a ship that can carry around 12,000 m^3 load, but that doesn't mean the bonus actually provides any benefit to a properly flown BR. The cloak already provides the scan immunity.

In relation to your other question about passive targeters, that works for other haulers and if the BR fails to cloak. Otherwise it's the same as above. A cloaked BR isn't affected by a passive targeter, so if you warp and cloak, there is insufficient time to be scanned at all, and no passive targeting either.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

PopeUrban
El Expedicion
Flames of Exile
#89 - 2016-10-19 23:01:11 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
PopeUrban wrote:
Well I learned something!

So, in theory, the only time you could reasonably lock up and scan a BR at this point is if its leaving a station really, assuming it doesn't have an instawarp.

I mean it kinda makes the bonus worth less I guess, but back to the point of the thread... is there a really a good argument for removing it other than letting people be lazy?

This is exactly what I wrote earlier, although they can also be locked up when approaching a station too, if they don't have an instadock. Warping to 0 can land up to 2500m outside 0, allowing gankers to lack and kill BRs reaching their destination.

I'm not at all advocating for its removal in favour of interdiction nullification. That would be just way too OP for a ship that can carry around 12,000 m^3 load, but that doesn't mean the bonus actually provides any benefit to a properly flown BR. The cloak already provides the scan immunity.

In relation to your other question about passive targeters, that works for other haulers and if the BR fails to cloak. Otherwise it's the same as above. A cloaked BR isn't affected by a passive targeter, so if you warp and cloak, there is insufficient time to be scanned at all, and no passive targeting either.


Right, my point is that the "counterplay" argument seems like it would apply to passive targeters versus active tanks on other transports, not BRs.

If the idea here is that both parties in this theoretical gank have to do stuff/make decisions in response to stuff.

So, basically, if scan immunity is bad for ganking meta, aren't passive targeters bad for the ganking meta along a very similar line of logic?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#90 - 2016-10-19 23:48:45 UTC
PopeUrban wrote:


Right, my point is that the "counterplay" argument seems like it would apply to passive targeters versus active tanks on other transports, not BRs.

If the idea here is that both parties in this theoretical gank have to do stuff/make decisions in response to stuff.

So, basically, if scan immunity is bad for ganking meta, aren't passive targeters bad for the ganking meta along a very similar line of logic?


Nah, they are fairly easy to spot. The only difference between a frigate running one and a frigate not running one is the yellow box on the overview. Both will be running sebos and a frigate running a sebo on a gate in highsec is only doing one thing.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#91 - 2016-10-19 23:49:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
PopeUrban wrote:
So, basically, if scan immunity is bad for ganking meta, aren't passive targeters bad for the ganking meta along a very similar line of logic?

I think the argument of the OP, Baltec1 and certainly what I have said, scan immunity isn't bad for the ganking meta, it's bad for haulers, or more correctly, bad for people who don't know how to properly use the ship.

It's fine for gankers. Even when losing a 90million ISK Tornado by ganking an empty BR, it's still a 130-140 million ISK killmail. That's the lottery they take when they gank BRs. There may be several empty ones, but it only takes a good loot result every few ganks to keep it ISK neutral.

However, remove the scan immunity and the behaviour of gankers may change (no guarantee). It may be that they take the time to scan BRs that don't use an instaundock or instadock, leaving more empty ones alone.

The OP is proposing to tradeoff what is either a useless bonus (if you fly the ship properly), or a dangerous bonus (if you don't), for interdiction nullification instead. That is too OP in my view, but not because the scan immunity provides any benefit, but because nullification provides too much benefit.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

PopeUrban
El Expedicion
Flames of Exile
#92 - 2016-10-20 00:00:17 UTC  |  Edited by: PopeUrban
baltec1 wrote:
PopeUrban wrote:


Right, my point is that the "counterplay" argument seems like it would apply to passive targeters versus active tanks on other transports, not BRs.

If the idea here is that both parties in this theoretical gank have to do stuff/make decisions in response to stuff.

So, basically, if scan immunity is bad for ganking meta, aren't passive targeters bad for the ganking meta along a very similar line of logic?


Nah, they are fairly easy to spot. The only difference between a frigate running one and a frigate not running one is the yellow box on the overview. Both will be running sebos and a frigate running a sebo on a gate in highsec is only doing one thing.


By that logic, though, isn't a blockade runner going through gates in hisec only doing one thing?

To be clear, I'm not actually against passive targeters, it just seems like what PTs do (removing some counterplay) in relation to non BR ganks, the BR's antiscan bonus does pretty much the same thing. Both remove some of one or the other player's ability to make informed decisions based on information provided to them by their user interface.

So, where the hauler pilot sees that frig and has to make an uninformed decision on whether or not to click on tanks, the ganker in the BR example has to make an uninformed decision on whether or not to engage. The primary difference here being that the PT is a module and the BR antiscan is a hull bonus.

In both cases, making the "wrong" decision can cost the pilot, or not, based solely on unknown info.

If the hauler sees a frig and doesn't overheat that active tank while aligning, it could mean he loses his haul, or it could mean he's fine and goes on to make ISK. If the ganker sees that BR and kills it, it could mean he wastes his ship on an empty one and loses ISK, or gets a decent value wreck and makes some money.

Or both could do nothing, paralyzed by the lack of info, but in doing nothing only that hauler assumes risk while the ganker doesn't.

So, long way of saying "it seems Ok as long as we are OK with PTs being a thing that exists"
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#93 - 2016-10-20 00:33:37 UTC
PopeUrban wrote:


By that logic, though, isn't a blockade runner going through gates in hisec only doing one thing?


It could be up to any number of things. PI, missions, ammo lugging, trading, fuel running, cop ops gang work, booster running, Plex running or just running empty to installa clone somewhere.

A frigate sitting still/orbiting on a gate running sebo in highsec? Its scanning.

PopeUrban wrote:

So, long way of saying "it seems Ok as long as we are OK with PTs being a thing that exists"


PT are a very different thing, they can **** up, they run for at best 10 seconds but mostly 5 seconds and the ships using them are easy to spot. There is also a counter to them.
PopeUrban
El Expedicion
Flames of Exile
#94 - 2016-10-20 01:11:54 UTC  |  Edited by: PopeUrban
baltec1 wrote:
PopeUrban wrote:


By that logic, though, isn't a blockade runner going through gates in hisec only doing one thing?


It could be up to any number of things. PI, missions, ammo lugging, trading, fuel running, cop ops gang work, booster running, Plex running or just running empty to installa clone somewhere.

A frigate sitting still/orbiting on a gate running sebo in highsec? Its scanning.

PopeUrban wrote:

So, long way of saying "it seems Ok as long as we are OK with PTs being a thing that exists"


PT are a very different thing, they can **** up, they run for at best 10 seconds but mostly 5 seconds and the ships using them are easy to spot. There is also a counter to them.


You're basically saying because frigs with sebos are the most common use of a PT they're the only possible use while stating all of the possible uses of the BR.

Also, the counter to the PT is similar to the counter to the BR bonus. Fit different **** before you undock and roll the dice.

balance wise they seem really similar to me. Niche use things that don't have really catastrophic effects on the meta.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#95 - 2016-10-20 09:47:20 UTC
PopeUrban wrote:


You're basically saying because frigs with sebos are the most common use of a PT they're the only possible use while stating all of the possible uses of the BR.


Frigates in highsec are a rare thing for gate camping, they just get chewed up by svipuls and t3 in a wardec. Equally a lot will be in an NPC corp so sitting on a gate running a sebo mean they are locking ships and an NPC frigate in highsec can only do one thing and thats scan ships.

PopeUrban wrote:

Also, the counter to the PT is similar to the counter to the BR bonus. Fit different **** before you undock and roll the dice.

balance wise they seem really similar to me. Niche use things that don't have really catastrophic effects on the meta.


There are two ways of doing it. The first is double wrap but that comes with its own risks as people will gank as its more than likely you are transporting something expensive. The second is to hide your expensive stuff with clutter. Fill your bay with low volume junk and most will simply think you are transporting junk to market.
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#96 - 2016-10-20 11:31:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
baltec1 wrote:
PopeUrban wrote:
Well I learned something!

So, in theory, the only time you could reasonably lock up and scan a BR at this point is if its leaving a station really, assuming it doesn't have an instawarp.

I mean it kinda makes the bonus worth less I guess, but back to the point of the thread... is there a really a good argument for removing it other than letting people be lazy?


It means gankers take the time to scan their targets rather than just F1 and prey. Thats good for both sides.



Yep.

Last night I violated all my usual protocols for hauling. Like dexter from the TV show...I have my code. Among them are

Don't fly tired,
Don't fly on a less than stable client (I play on mac os client...some patches are iffy to me, last night I know on one run out of jita I was already having issues...I got stuck and froze in gate jump tunnel animation leaving jita and had to dump client and restart ...sign I should have not gone back but I did ike a jackass).

So anyway me the idiot who should have when to bed said one more run back. Make it to jita. Right click dock to everyones fave station. Me half asleep didn't notice I was not getting the nice lady saying docking requested accepted, docking request granted....and in the few seconds of half sleep induced inattentiveness a talos targetted my (edit: other alts's) crane, skipped foreplay and dakka dakka boom.

My load was questionable value. Looking over my LM the 2 items that may have covered a reasonable chunk (maybe if that) of the eventual popping of his talos.....did not drop. He gets to enjoy the finest crap loot drop low meta gear he could have gotten running a few missions. yay him. Maybe a few mil in salvage. Some t2 mods dropped but quick look over has it the cheaper stuff, Didn't even get the crane's cloak. One of the pricier t2's mods on ship or in load, that didn't drop either.

No scan did not save me. The talos rolled the dice and while he didn't lose, he didn't win either. He is not even getting tears. I accept I was an idiot and should have not made that run tired as hell. My mac os client going to crap in jita to maybe add some delayed reaction, not even going to sweat that. Its reason 235084989 to get my ass to a store, get windows 10 and bootcamp install.

Old girl lasted like 6-7 years, made it possible to make billions in this game. She earned her keep and then some.


But yeah...for the ones who said well one time, back in band camp, no scan saved me because they didn't see my expensive load and didn't take the gamble....be thankful and go pay homage to whatever higher power looks over you. I half asleep at the helm gave a talos just a few extra seconds he would not have normally and pop went my ship. No scan did not save me lol. Why I'd rather it be something else. So of more use...when not flying like an idiot half asleep at the wheel lol.
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#97 - 2016-10-20 13:18:44 UTC
Let me say that instaundock and perfect safety was not an intended gameplay mechanic. Remember when concord didn't even exist?

Instaundocks were a cute use of the invuln timer on undock. So was the development of suicide ganking to get around concord. Both are quite lame.

I've said it before, removing the bonus will not affect anyone who warps in complete safety using the tricks of the trade, nor will it save any empty BR from random attacks, because a tornado costs less than a BR and is an easy trade for anyone bored enough.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#98 - 2016-10-20 17:22:56 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
Let me say that instaundock and perfect safety was not an intended gameplay mechanic. Remember when concord didn't even exist?


Its always existed.
13kr1d1 wrote:

Instaundocks were a cute use of the invuln timer on undock. So was the development of suicide ganking to get around concord. Both are quite lame.

I've said it before, removing the bonus will not affect anyone who warps in complete safety using the tricks of the trade, nor will it save any empty BR from random attacks, because a tornado costs less than a BR and is an easy trade for anyone bored enough.


A gank nado is not an easy trade when they get nothing more than the t2 cloak that was fitted on the blocade runner and a few cargo expanders.

This bonus is probably the most obvious case of something being added to a ship that nobody asked for, makes no sense to have and negatively impacts everyone involved.
Piugattuk
Nanite Systems.
#99 - 2016-10-20 18:28:10 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
Let me say that instaundock and perfect safety was not an intended gameplay mechanic. Remember when concord didn't even exist?


Its always existed.
13kr1d1 wrote:

Instaundocks were a cute use of the invuln timer on undock. So was the development of suicide ganking to get around concord. Both are quite lame.

I've said it before, removing the bonus will not affect anyone who warps in complete safety using the tricks of the trade, nor will it save any empty BR from random attacks, because a tornado costs less than a BR and is an easy trade for anyone bored enough.


A gank nado is not an easy trade when they get nothing more than the t2 cloak that was fitted on the blocade runner and a few cargo expanders.

This bonus is probably the most obvious case of something being added to a ship that nobody asked for, makes no sense to have and negatively impacts everyone involved.


One last try, this is the point, I like having the bonus, you don't like having the bonus, you have choices in 16 other hulls to choose from, I have only 4 to choose from, take the bonus away and now I have no choices.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#100 - 2016-10-20 19:48:10 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:


One last try, this is the point, I like having the bonus, you don't like having the bonus, you have choices in 16 other hulls to choose from, I have only 4 to choose from, take the bonus away and now I have no choices.


It warps like an interceptor, aligns faster than many frigates, has a 10k+ cargo and can warp cloaked. These are the attributes that make BR amazing ships and all but impossible to stop in highsec and extreamly hard to catch in low and null. You don't chose this ship for the cargo scan immunity.

There have been a number of things that were removed for the good of the rest of the game that people wanted to keep. Remote AOE doomsdays for example.