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Remove immunity to cargo scanners from blockade runners

Author
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#21 - 2016-10-16 12:40:39 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

You make it sound like randomly getting ganked is a bad thing.


It is.

Random ganks don't reward good piloting for either side.
Bailian Moxtain
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#22 - 2016-10-16 13:51:57 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

You make it sound like randomly getting ganked is a bad thing.


Randomly ganking for fun is OK I guess. You can never stop that from happening. But ganking because the target "may have something valuable in cargo, but you'll never know" prevents these ships to be used by lazy afk'ish people. As pointed by others earlier in this thread, the bonus doesnt really accomplish anything except forcing people to be active while flying. I wouldnt risk send my alt in one on autopilot somewhere, would you?
Piugattuk
Lone Star Warriors
Evictus.
#23 - 2016-10-16 15:59:32 UTC
The Justice wrote:
Bad Pennyy wrote:
The Justice wrote:
Immunity for cargo scanners is a worthless and dangerous bonus.

Thoughts?Idea


I love having this bonus. But, I'd trade it for the ability to fit a spectrum breaker to this class and DSTs. But some low volume hauls are very expensive hauls and the immunity offsets the overall lack of EHP etc.

But complaining about the risk/uncertainty in making targeting decisions seems... unEVEish. Given the current status quo, esp in high sec., it doesn't seem sporting that gankers need even more info / help?



My point is that I think most people will cloak and use bookmarks if the cargo is expensive. Why the bonus? And if flying empty/afk/not cloaked, the chances for getting randomly ganked is quite high which often results in loss for both ganker and hauler. Im not trying to get rid of ganking (or boosting it) nor make hisec more safe/dangerous. I just want the role bonus gone. Those who have posted in this thread so far about the bonus being fine has also hinted to being cloaked all the time while using the hauler which again makes no use of it.


Riddle me this batman, you have 16 other ships to fly besides the one with the bonus that you should be using if this bonus bothers you, why must all other players give up this because you don't want to exercise the use of the other 16?

See how that works, the wreathe is one of the fastest ships (in the class), out there, use it if you worry about gankers not being able to see a menu, by doing what your asking takes away from everyone else who uses it for exactly what it is designed for, I can honestly say I've never seen a blockade runner flying on auto (i'm sure it happens), and taking this away won't stop folks from blowing it up for the lolz, they do it now (pop ships just because without regard to profit).
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#24 - 2016-10-16 16:40:12 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:


Riddle me this batman, you have 16 other ships to fly besides the one with the bonus that you should be using if this bonus bothers you, why must all other players give up this because you don't want to exercise the use of the other 16?

See how that works, the wreathe is one of the fastest ships (in the class), out there, use it if you worry about gankers not being able to see a menu, by doing what your asking takes away from everyone else who uses it for exactly what it is designed for, I can honestly say I've never seen a blockade runner flying on auto (i'm sure it happens), and taking this away won't stop folks from blowing it up for the lolz, they do it now (pop ships just because without regard to profit).


They do it now because they cant see whats inside. This impossible to scan bonus has made blockade runners less safe and is not good for either side. Ship scanning should never be impossible.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#25 - 2016-10-16 16:54:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Piugattuk wrote:
I can honestly say I've never seen a blockade runner flying on auto (i'm sure it happens),.

It doesn't need to be an autopilotting BR. Some gankers specifically target blockade runners because it can't be scanned.

They do it for profit and because the scan immunity turns the ganking into a lucky dip game.

BR pilots that have instadock and instaundock bookmarks have no need to worry, but if you look a few pages in of the below killboard, you'll see the above by example in Jita (he hits other ships too, but always hits BRs that land just outside docking range and/or that align to warp on the undock; and ganks T1 haulers almost always when they a profitable):

https://zkillboard.com/character/93367623/

For smart BR pilots, the scan immunity provides no practical benefit on the ship. For non-smart ones, it makes the ship even more of a risk depending on destination.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

The Justice
Meep Beep Logistics
Meep Beep Empire
#26 - 2016-10-16 19:54:21 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:


For smart BR pilots, the scan immunity provides no practical benefit on the ship. For non-smart ones, it makes the ship even more of a risk depending on destination.


Pretty much this.
Piugattuk
Lone Star Warriors
Evictus.
#27 - 2016-10-17 00:14:08 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Piugattuk wrote:
I can honestly say I've never seen a blockade runner flying on auto (i'm sure it happens),.

It doesn't need to be an autopilotting BR. Some gankers specifically target blockade runners because it can't be scanned.

They do it for profit and because the scan immunity turns the ganking into a lucky dip game.

BR pilots that have instadock and instaundock bookmarks have no need to worry, but if you look a few pages in of the below killboard, you'll see the above by example in Jita (he hits other ships too, but always hits BRs that land just outside docking range and/or that align to warp on the undock; and ganks T1 haulers almost always when they a profitable):

https://zkillboard.com/character/93367623/

For smart BR pilots, the scan immunity provides no practical benefit on the ship. For non-smart ones, it makes the ship even more of a risk depending on destination.


My point exactly Big smile if you fly one of these into Jita your playing Russian roulette and probably deserve getting blasted for being foolish.

One thing over and over again had been said by some ehm....nice folk in EVE, adapt, I have taken this advice and structured my game to be more effective against the "bad guys" this includes flying stealthy ships including the BR, all the training time, the ISK invested into using the tools I have been given, now you want to change the ONLY line of ships in that class to suit your needs then why the hell did you bother to train for it, that's dopey.

There are OTHER choices if flying this ship doesn't suit you, who's the carebear here? Fly this ship accept the risk that someone will want to know badly enough what's inside or don't.
T-1's. T-2
Amarr -
-Bestower. - Impel
-Sigil

Caldari-
-Badger. -Bustard
-Tayra

Gallente- -Occator
-Epithal
-Iteron V
-Kryos
-Miasmos
-Nereus

Minmatar- -Mastodon
-Hoarder
-Mammoth
-Wreathe

Surely you can find something to suit your needs in this line up, pick one and go for it, leave the Blockade runners alone if it doesn't suit your style to "risk" that someone will gank you to know what you got, one thing about people who gank, they are going to do it or not, none of us have control over that, the fact that they can't see gives them a few seconds to decide if your worth taking a chance or wait for something the CAN see and WILL gank because they know the value because it's all they do and they become good at knowing a good Mark.

Cicirus
Debug the CODE
#28 - 2016-10-17 01:28:42 UTC
I'm pretty sure the only folks complaining about this bonus are those who wish to interdict a BR in hisec with a guaranteed potential payoff - too bad so sad chaps. Seriously, if you need to be sure that the boat you're ganking is full o' isk, then you're not really that good a pirate are ya' laddie - ARRRR ARRRR ARRRR???

Here's the dealio - lose the pacifier and just decide if you have the chimichangas to go for that boat - totally up to you. But certainly don't get your buddies together to spam a forum-board to try and get CCP to nerf my boat simply becuase you might be too afraid to lose your baby tears...

KEEP THE IMMUNITY!!!!!

...or put a better way...

If it ain't broke...don't FRAK with it (yes - BG forever)

o7 brahs...

PS: I'm runnin' the routes to\from Jita almost nightly - if you have said chimis, then come on up and take yer' shot - be glad to have ya...and so will CONCORD - Cool
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#29 - 2016-10-17 03:52:51 UTC
Cicirus wrote:
I'm pretty sure the only folks complaining about this bonus are those who wish to interdict a BR in hisec with a guaranteed potential payoff - too bad so sad chaps.



Actually I am a garden variety empire bear at the moment.

I'd like to see the role bonus be something more useful. As my BR is flown as how I did fit when I lived in 0.0 and low sec. Its actually the same Crane. The only ship so far I have not had blown up on me. Jinxing myself maybe...its been paid off for years lol.


Agility spec'd with cloak. In 0.0 and low (and a few detours through wh's) when you meet a camp they don't have deep philosophical debates about dropping targets. They don't wait for scans. Weapons and tackle already fired up....just waiting for the target lock and they hit. Why some like me scan proof a waste. We leave/have left empire. Better bonus options could be put here when your potential killers don't give you added time to see if worth killing. You were worth killing as soon as you jumped on the outbound and landed next system. Seconds of debate is seconds given to warp off they don't give.

So, we are in aggreemement, target drops. Yes, Hey....where did the ship go? dammit, another one got away, doh.

Bonuses better here more reasonable than OP's (no to nullify from me) could be say warp speed increase. Fit in theme with blocked running. Sometimes your clearing a camp comes in 2 phases.

Phase one...the gate camp.

Phase 2 would be worst case scenario of fast tackles chasing you down in warp. Best seen in 0.0 in pipeline systems. 2 gates, no stations (or ones that can access if not NPC). Looks like target is goring for the gate, follow them and may get lucky on the outbound. faster warp speed balanced to where stock inty's can do this but others have to load up on hyperspatial....now it can handle phase 2 better. Bonus could be ironed out more for a few more ships...this not smoking an inty stock a nice starter area.

This bonus properly balances affects all 4 regions of eve. Empire, wh, 0.0 and low.

Or it gets blops cloaked velocity bonus. Could help when in bubble trouble. Insert rabble rabble mwd cloak trick rants. Bring bump indy's. This would benefit fun times in 0.0 or WH's.

Where as now if flown and fit right this benefits empire..and not very much imo. A BR on gate/undock long enough to scan has done something wrong.

Unless caught by a pro and impressively setup instalock camp....its should clear it. Player makes their BR a brick that can't do this is fitting it wrong.

If caught in an instalock....that's eve. Did pvp, these aren't easy to setup up. You need several players swallowing thier pride and cavemen mentality of must smash, DPS fit only....or a firm FC telling these people to STFU and run the crap to boost the hell out of anything tied to targeting. Local and remote. They pull this off, well its your unlucky day. Have seen many mess up instalocks....why my Crane is still alive. Something was missing, I got that small sliver of time I needed and gone.

And i have to ask where you even find this in empire. My crane sees jita often, 8 jumps each way. And I sometimes kill time doing a jita, amarr, res, dodixie rotation. Agility fit, break gate cloak, cover cloak up just like that. Common route I instawarp BM it.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#30 - 2016-10-17 06:49:34 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
For non-smart ones, it makes the ship even more of a risk depending on destination.

Isn't that a good thing?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#31 - 2016-10-17 07:45:42 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
For non-smart ones, it makes the ship even more of a risk depending on destination.

Isn't that a good thing?

I don't really care one way or the other. Not my proposal to remove it.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#32 - 2016-10-17 07:46:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Piugattuk wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Piugattuk wrote:
I can honestly say I've never seen a blockade runner flying on auto (i'm sure it happens),.

It doesn't need to be an autopilotting BR. Some gankers specifically target blockade runners because it can't be scanned.

They do it for profit and because the scan immunity turns the ganking into a lucky dip game.

BR pilots that have instadock and instaundock bookmarks have no need to worry, but if you look a few pages in of the below killboard, you'll see the above by example in Jita (he hits other ships too, but always hits BRs that land just outside docking range and/or that align to warp on the undock; and ganks T1 haulers almost always when they a profitable):

https://zkillboard.com/character/93367623/

For smart BR pilots, the scan immunity provides no practical benefit on the ship. For non-smart ones, it makes the ship even more of a risk depending on destination.


My point exactly Big smile ...


Then why didn't you just write that exactly, instead of some rubbish about autopiloting?

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#33 - 2016-10-17 09:04:22 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Cicirus wrote:
I'm pretty sure the only folks complaining about this bonus are those who wish to interdict a BR in hisec with a guaranteed potential payoff - too bad so sad chaps. Seriously, if you need to be sure that the boat you're ganking is full o' isk, then you're not really that good a pirate are ya' laddie - ARRRR ARRRR ARRRR???


There is more skill and effort put into hunting down high value targets than just randomly shooting.
Cicirus wrote:

Here's the dealio - lose the pacifier and just decide if you have the chimichangas to go for that boat - totally up to you. But certainly don't get your buddies together to spam a forum-board to try and get CCP to nerf my boat simply becuase you might be too afraid to lose your baby tears...


The cargo scan immunity is the nerf. It has made every blockade runner less safe because the attacks are now random as opposed to being based upon isk value.
Cicirus wrote:

KEEP THE IMMUNITY!!!!!

...or put a better way...

If it ain't broke...don't FRAK with it (yes - BG forever)

o7 brahs...

PS: I'm runnin' the routes to\from Jita almost nightly - if you have said chimis, then come on up and take yer' shot - be glad to have ya...and so will CONCORD - Cool


It wasn't broken in the first place, no it is because CCP changed the risk from don't get caught with a high value cargo to just don't get caught. Gankers and haulers came off worse with this change, a change that was entirely unnecessary.
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#34 - 2016-10-17 11:29:48 UTC
The Justice wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:


For smart BR pilots, the scan immunity provides no practical benefit on the ship. For non-smart ones, it makes the ship even more of a risk depending on destination.


Pretty much this.


CCP Fozzie wrote:

And on cargo scanner immunity, I completely agree that the bonus is more powerful (too powerful when combined with everything else) on the Deep Space Transports, and that it can be a liability for some autopiloting BRs. However it can be a useful tool for carrying extremely high value cargos and it fits so perfectly with the thematic role of the Blockade Runners that I am quite hesitant to remove it completely.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

The Justice
Meep Beep Logistics
Meep Beep Empire
#35 - 2016-10-17 12:34:26 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
The Justice wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:


For smart BR pilots, the scan immunity provides no practical benefit on the ship. For non-smart ones, it makes the ship even more of a risk depending on destination.


Pretty much this.


CCP Fozzie wrote:

And on cargo scanner immunity, I completely agree that the bonus is more powerful (too powerful when combined with everything else) on the Deep Space Transports, and that it can be a liability for some autopiloting BRs. However it can be a useful tool for carrying extremely high value cargos and it fits so perfectly with the thematic role of the Blockade Runners that I am quite hesitant to remove it completely.


I mean, come on. Who carries "exrremely high value" cargo without both using instadock/undock-bookmarks while being cloaked 100% of the time. Noone will just fly around like a boss because they are unscanable. Try warping uncloaked to jita 4-4 and slowboat toward the station and see what happens.

The reason why I dont want to fly other haulers is simple. I want to be able to fly to desto like a ****** uncloaked in my superfast small hauler, pick up my cargo, and fly back cloaked and stealthy. Right now thats not an option. As mentioned by someone else in this thread; a warp speed bonus would be a much better choise (or just no role bonus at all).
The Justice
Meep Beep Logistics
Meep Beep Empire
#36 - 2016-10-17 12:36:20 UTC  |  Edited by: The Justice
Double posting
Mordachai
Eternal Darkness.
Initiative Mercenaries
#37 - 2016-10-17 12:50:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Mordachai
Tbh why not just make a module that inlays your ship with thick lead layer so it wont be scanable ... and people can choose if they wish to to use that module.

Although i use the blockade runner just because it cant be scanned and its fast and yes im a former ganker myself so i know how to protect myself from them BUT with enough sebo you could easily scan BR when they are undocking unless they are using insta undock bm's.

Imho just keep this bonus to the ship so that the gankers dont have a guarantee that theya re ganking something big... eve is a risky game make them have SOME risk...
Vic Jefferson
ElitistOps
WE FORM V0LTA
#38 - 2016-10-17 15:52:50 UTC
The Justice wrote:
Might want to switch it to bubble immunity or something, but that might be a little too OP(?).Idea


They are already bubble immune in practice by virtue of a 90% fatigue reduction and the ability to take black ops bridges.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Cicirus
Debug the CODE
#39 - 2016-10-17 19:03:26 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

The cargo scan immunity is the nerf. It has made every blockade runner less safe because the attacks are now random as opposed to being based upon isk value.


Spoken like a true pirate albeit a poor one at that...Cry

Who writes this stuff for ya'??? Seriously??? MORE DANGEROUS??? LOLOLOL...here's the thing my lil pirate toddler - if you're the one NOT flying the BR, then why would you care - doesn't hurt you ESPECIALLY given it's not actually more dangerous...well at least not for GOOD pilots. And if you are flying the BR, then simply put in your description "I HAVE ISK ON BOARD" and be done with it. And then of course you could just NOT FLY A BR...Yeah I guess you forgot that there are other cargo ships...DOH...Shocked

Nice try though - I'm sure some small number of folks out there will believe this crazy pirate FUD...(queue talking parrot now) Pirate

baltec1 wrote:

It wasn't broken in the first place, no it is because CCP changed the risk from don't get caught with a high value cargo to just don't get caught. Gankers and haulers came off worse with this change, a change that was entirely unnecessary.


Oh poor you - gankers came off worse??? Really - awww the big bad CCP made it harder for you to steal shtuff??? Awww how dare they...they took your candy...DUDE - is your lip quivering? Is your diapy dirty??? Listen bro-squeemish...Be a BETTUH PYE-RATE or GET A NEW JOB...either way you do need to lose the big rubber sucky thing...it's unbecoming...X

Nuff sed - Game set match CHAMPIONSHIP - Im done here...TwistedTwistedTwisted
Cicirus
Debug the CODE
#40 - 2016-10-17 19:06:09 UTC
Mordachai wrote:
Tbh why not just make a module that inlays your ship with thick lead layer so it wont be scanable ... and people can choose if they wish to to use that module.

Although i use the blockade runner just because it cant be scanned and its fast and yes im a former ganker myself so i know how to protect myself from them BUT with enough sebo you could easily scan BR when they are undocking unless they are using insta undock bm's.

Imho just keep this bonus to the ship so that the gankers dont have a guarantee that theya re ganking something big... eve is a risky game make them have SOME risk...


Aww a nice breath of fresh air to counter the poor lazy gankuuhs...I mean seriously, to think a criminal pirate must work to earn...what is this galaxy coming to????