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I'd have suggested a better one, but at this late stage, our hands are tied by the resources already spent on the existing plan. Our best chance is to rescue it.

That's not true.

As I detailed, all structures are still defensible by a fleet of pilots, which is the only defence that is actually going to achieve anything under CCP's current plan since the EC defences as they stand would not even be able to repell a single multiboxer.

Also I suggested that some small amount of defensive capability should be possible via the single high slot, albeit very limited. I also suggested that more passive defensive capabilities should be available to all structures via more low slot and rig slot defensive fitting options.

Each non-citadel structure COULD be defended by a Citadel and the M class Citadel isn't hugely expensive for that task. Although I personally believe that there should be a size class of all these structures below M anyway, to allow for smaller budgets and entry level players, but that's another matter.

Only a very minimal force multiplier and given that you have to use a pilot to man those defenses, you have the opportunity cost of having one less pilot in fleet to count against that.

That is a design even less ambitious that what CCP is already going for. I really don't think we should be looking to aim any lower. After many years of being promised a proper POS replacement, modular POSes or cities in the sky, just getting a new version of the already existing outposts would be the most mighty kick in the teeth in my opinion.

I'm happy for you, since CCP is most likely going to implement exactly what they have proposed, so that is where you will be going. If those unambitious designs are all you desire, then you'll do well out of this.

Unfortunately, I'm a 12 year veteran of this game who has seen the industry and structure gameplay shrink downwards towards this most pathetic current state with no little amount of disgust. I like sandbox gameplay, interesting tactical and economic choices and a design the encourages varied and emergent playstyles that are not pre-designed by the unavoidably narrow vision of developers. So I want them to give us tools, building blocks if you will, that we can use to build things that transcend anything that CCP would have designed into them... as we have done with the previous systems that were not so limited in their scope.

To be honest, I suspect that result was more or less unavoidable. It's more to do with accessible structures appearing on the overview than any congestion of structures in the game, since POS were everywhere they were allowed to be before the new structures were introduced.

Perimeter and the Jita halo in general are going to be congested with structures simply because the new market features are allowing Jita to expand to fill those adjacent systems. It does have some nice emergent gameplay and economic features, plus it may eventually result in a bit of load balancing off of Jita proper and on to the Jita halo systems.

The fact that the uberhub of EVE is going to be a writhing mass of players, structures, depots, debris, local spam and gankers isn't something I object to. It's like visiting any busy commercial district and it's actually quite nice to see it manifest itself that way. Sure it's uncouth, dirty and noisy but I think at least one place in EVE has to be like that.

We'll all end up with an extra overview tab that excludes these things at some point, it's just it takes time for us to evolve our routines to the new order of things.

Still, I'm more concerned with what happens everywhere else in the game, in your local backwater where a 10 man indy corp wants to build something meaningful and aspirational to make their mark on the game... even if it's totally irrelevant to everyone outside their corp.

I want that minecraft, kerbal, "EVE the way it used to be" gameplay to be there because it so obviously appeals to so many of EVE industrial players and it's a shame to see that only supported in the most thin and superficial way in CCP's current vision, when only minor changes would be required to make it a truely wonderful implementation that iterates on and learns from the positives of the old POS system (before it was made derelict).

I don't believe most indy groups will want their structures to be publicly accessible and visible on the overview going forward (we're not talking about those in the Jita halo and those that are publicly available as rental services) because discretion has always been the best defence for any industrial corp. Under my rescue plan, I would expect there to be a great many sprawling hidden cities that are only known to those who own them or those that spend the time to search for them. Under CCP's vision, I'm expecting rental services to be much more common because it's one of the few HS business models that will actually have commercial merit, given the fact that the structures are so defensively weak and will drop a lot of loot it doesn't really make sense for a lot of people to put them up for their own use as opposed to farming "pubbies" for rental income.

I call that a minor graphical problem. Open your d-scan and look how many POSes there are ; even more invulnerable. You just don't see them at first glance.

Are the fuel costs going back to 20/30/40 - or was that an omission?

/JTK

- Edit
I should have checked the Google Docs link. This image - in the Devblog - is misleading.

one of the biggest problems is the rigs .
Why use rigs to give bonus on the service modules
Rigs are slots to give extra bonus to armor/shield /dps/power/cpu/.....

give the EC and citadels servise modules where you can insert scripts to give bonus to the things you need.
or a slot like the T3 ships have. (Sub System)

Of course that more than anything depends on how many hours per day your prepared to commit to Eve.
If your not able to keep an EC running 24/7 - Your much better off using a pos (for best outcome) or an npc station.

Even with the cost to keep services running lowered, it still can't compare to the single cost of running a pos and it certainly isn't a better option setup cost wise OR startup cost wise either..

But then once al the industrialists combine resources and become one giant alliance, as per Devs idea of how eve should be played, it won't matter how much things cost to maintain.

I wonder how long it will take for Citadels and EC's to begin to just get abandoned in space, like the hundreds and hundreds of pos's littering highsec, as players change how they make income, quit eve, go broke, etc. I wonder more how CCP will handle al the space junk no-one can or is willing to shoot.
I have a stick in Amarr space that hasn't been online in 4 years - It and the other 10 or 12 in the same system, just sit there day in day out.

Excellent suggestions.

I don't necessarily disagree with some of the points raised in the ongoing discussions, however, this point (and similar) have come up enough times to be commented on.

The ECs are optimised for Building and Research (like the Amarr Factories and Minmatar Outposts; as well as particular POS structures). Their 'weaknesses' therefore are expressed in lower HP, less ability to fit defensive modules and, indeed longer vulnerability windows.

It is the Citadels, however, that are optimised for Defence. If someone wants more defence for their structure, therefore, then fit the Manufacture or Research modules to a Citadel!

All that said, however, I do wonder whether the vulnerability windows should not actually be the same for each class of Structure - ie ECs also are 3/6/15.....

The arguments of relative play time vs being able to defend the structure if you want one are pretty much the same.

You don't really need to guard your structures each vulnerability window. CCP has thoughtfully given you three chances to save your space stations, so if you by some chance miss the first reinforcement, you can assemble your fleet 24h later, and then again another 5 days later if you fail, to make your stand and defend your structure.

I am pretty sure that is safe enough for you to not worry about having a defence fleet on standby each window, especially given you are very unlikely to be attacked ever given the lack of drops. Stop whining about changes you have no control over and start dealing with the reality of the new system.

Ellowah

Cheers for the lower fuel costs :)
Rigs are still a mess tough

I did read a good point some1 made here about losing the "shared" workspace / manu array with the future end of POS's.
This is something I also use heavily, since it simplifies organisation of materials over multiple accounts.
Or helps keeping materials for specific projects seperate, so you can't accidently use it for the wrong build order.

CCP could you consider creating a new sort of "Joined Inventory" (with a limited ammount ofc)
But basicly a hanger you can invite people into who you want, basicly to create a joint inventory with your own alts or other people)
Preferably with Nameable tabs.

And with a log who added/took what !)
Then the Title of security Officer actually means something lol

Other points are also still valid on the posts on here;
* It's sad EC's can't be anchored next to Citadels or linked together with long space tethers.
* Some systems are getting a bit "full with citadel trash" and the current system to kill them is not encouriging soley because of the 3 timers.