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Dev blog: Building Dreams: Introducing Engineering Complexes

First post First post First post
Author
Ammath
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#881 - 2016-11-14 20:56:25 UTC
Not allowing a mining ship to dock in a Medium OR LARGE Engineering Complex is moronic.

By mining ship I mean the new Rorqual.

It makes no sense other than some Dev's personal belief that it looks ugly undocking... although massive freighters large in model size than the rorq are totally legit undocking...

*eyeroll* come on CCP you are better than this.
TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#882 - 2016-11-14 22:53:05 UTC
Ammath wrote:
Not allowing a mining ship to dock in a Medium OR LARGE Engineering Complex is moronic.

By mining ship I mean the new Rorqual.

It makes no sense other than some Dev's personal belief that it looks ugly undocking... although massive freighters large in model size than the rorq are totally legit undocking...

*eyeroll* come on CCP you are better than this.


Maybe citadels need a fleet bay?

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-

Je'ron
The Happy Shooters
#883 - 2016-11-15 10:42:11 UTC
Now Life wrote:
one of the biggest problems is the rigs .
Why use rigs to give bonus on the service modules
Rigs are slots to give extra bonus to armor/shield /dps/power/cpu/.....

give the EC and citadels servise modules where you can insert scripts to give bonus to the things you need.
or a slot like the T3 ships have. (Sub System)


Absolutely agree. The rigs kill the flexibility:

  • no changes in the suit of products which can be manufactured efficiently at the EC, because the market changed
  • no changes in location/moving to another system, because the Cost index skyrocketed and killed the profit margin
blue dehazon
Stonegard Arrows
#884 - 2016-11-15 16:26:59 UTC
Je'ron wrote:
Now Life wrote:
one of the biggest problems is the rigs .
Why use rigs to give bonus on the service modules
Rigs are slots to give extra bonus to armor/shield /dps/power/cpu/.....

give the EC and citadels servise modules where you can insert scripts to give bonus to the things you need.
or a slot like the T3 ships have. (Sub System)


Absolutely agree. The rigs kill the flexibility:

  • no changes in the suit of products which can be manufactured efficiently at the EC, because the market changed
  • no changes in location/moving to another system, because the Cost index skyrocketed and killed the profit margin

Yes this is wery bad,they call it speziliation when its truly just a big nerf.Loong live the POS.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#885 - 2016-11-15 20:54:49 UTC
Je'ron wrote:


Absolutely agree. The rigs kill the flexibility:

  • no changes in the suit of products which can be manufactured efficiently at the EC, because the market changed
  • no changes in location/moving to another system, because the Cost index skyrocketed and killed the profit margin

You are meant to solve the second one by killing the competitions EC. Which is fair enough.
The first one is the real issue. A straight ME rig combined with more specialised services would work, since they have a start up cost it's not trivial to jump the services constantly, but practical to do so in response to a significant market shift.
klana depp
Tr0pa de elite.
Pandemic Horde
#886 - 2016-11-16 18:51:31 UTC
http://i.imgur.com/rVVtfKB.png

am i missing something or did we just get massively screwed with?

( compare to http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/70592/1/ECRigMaterials.jpg )
and no, even with ME 10% research and building in a citadel you wont get anywhere near those numbers...
klana depp
Tr0pa de elite.
Pandemic Horde
#887 - 2016-11-16 19:48:27 UTC
klana depp wrote:
http://i.imgur.com/rVVtfKB.png

am i missing something or did we just get massively screwed with?

( compare to http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/70592/1/ECRigMaterials.jpg )
and no, even with ME 10% research and building in a citadel you wont get anywhere near those numbers...


and xl is even worse?
currently the t1 ship manuf rig for the XL is like 25b? :)
Razor Z
Fancypants Inc
Pandemic Horde
#888 - 2016-11-17 00:56:31 UTC
Using the numbers posted on the dev blog, the XL rigs are in the 5-8bil range. However, on TQ they are way out of whack - in the 25-26bil range. I sincerely hope that this is a bug and won't stand. The T2 rigs being in the 118bil range are bad enough (which guarantees they will never be used ever), but a T1 rig costing as much as the structure itself? That's far from acceptable.
exiik Shardani
Imperial Spacedrill and Logistics
#889 - 2016-11-17 01:31:18 UTC
Can anyone tell me one reason why to build any EC?

I see nothing. Prece of EC/rigs and all modules r way overpriced and is still far better build anything on pos or even stations, because so bad ROI....

sry for my English :-(

Plaid Rabbit
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#890 - 2016-11-17 06:52:25 UTC
Re: the high rig cost. Whenever CCP announces any of the new rigs, the market is suddenly slammed by people needing to wipe out jita 4-5 times to build the rigs CCP described. SO the fact that it's priced at 5b at the time of design has nothing to do with the price at release. But also, a few months later, the price will settle down a bit. I know the refining rigs used to be 3b right after launch, and they are down to 1.5b. It's less painful.

I'm going to come out well personally with the ECs with the help of the imperium. We're large enough to drop several of these. But I feel this concept screws a lot of the smaller industrialists. I've done some smaller production at other times, and I don't see how non massive alliances will do things like build supers, short of asking PL or Goons for permission. I knew small renters that managed to sneak together a SCSAA, and were building supers in their quiet backyard. No more with ECs...
Kinizsi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#891 - 2016-11-17 10:21:04 UTC
exiik Shardani wrote:
Can anyone tell me one reason why to build any EC?

I see nothing. Prece of EC/rigs and all modules r way overpriced and is still far better build anything on pos or even stations, because so bad ROI....



POS's gona phase out, there won't be another way to manufacture and research fast enough to keep up with the market. Because NPC station manufacturing sucks.
klana depp
Tr0pa de elite.
Pandemic Horde
#892 - 2016-11-17 11:22:45 UTC
just checked after downtime, L- and XL- rig blueprints are still using massively inflated (wrong?) numbers.

CCPlease :(
Marcus Tedric
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#893 - 2016-11-17 12:06:22 UTC
klana depp wrote:
just checked after downtime, L- and XL- rig blueprints are still using massively inflated (wrong?) numbers.

CCPlease :(


It's just the Market - it will adjust. Don't pay the inflated prices and they will come down.

You don't have to rig a structure. Do it later. The EC structures are bonused anyway.

Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again. - CCP Ytterbium

Razor Z
Fancypants Inc
Pandemic Horde
#894 - 2016-11-17 17:42:51 UTC
Marcus Tedric wrote:
klana depp wrote:
just checked after downtime, L- and XL- rig blueprints are still using massively inflated (wrong?) numbers.

CCPlease :(


It's just the Market - it will adjust. Don't pay the inflated prices and they will come down.

You don't have to rig a structure. Do it later. The EC structures are bonused anyway.


I'm not disputing that the market prices rising aren't contributory; I am sure that they are. What I am saying is that the materials required currently on TQ are way out of line with what was put in the dev blog. For example, for the Standup XL-Set Ship Manufacturing Efficiency I rig, the quoted materials (http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/70592/1/ECRigMaterials.jpg) are:

72,000 Contaminated Nanite Compound
120,000 Contaminated Lorentz Fluid
120,000 Smashed Trigger Unit
120,000 Tangled Power Conduit
36,000 Tripped Power Circuit
120,000 Damaged Artificial Neural Network
120,000 Charred Micro Circuit
108,000 Fried Interface Circuit
120,000 Conductive Polymer

However, on TQ the build requirements for that rig are:

120,000 x Contaminated Nanite Compound
200,000 x Contaminated Lorentz Fluid
200,000 x Defective Current Pump
200,000 x Smashed Trigger Unit
200,000 x Tangled Power Conduit
200,000 x Damaged Artificial Neural Network
200,000 x Charred Micro Circuit
180,000 x Fried Interface Circuit
200,000 x Conductive Polymer

The two aren't even close....
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#895 - 2016-11-17 19:35:16 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Marcus Tedric wrote:
klana depp wrote:
just checked after downtime, L- and XL- rig blueprints are still using massively inflated (wrong?) numbers.

CCPlease :(


It's just the Market - it will adjust. Don't pay the inflated prices and they will come down.

You don't have to rig a structure. Do it later. The EC structures are bonused anyway.



I like how you don't even have to have the most basic understanding of what it is you're replying to before chiming in with your 100% relevance-free input. Roll

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

blue dehazon
Stonegard Arrows
#896 - 2016-11-20 06:10:59 UTC
exiik Shardani wrote:
Can anyone tell me one reason why to build any EC?

I see nothing. Prece of EC/rigs and all modules r way overpriced and is still far better build anything on pos or even stations, because so bad ROI....

Just keep your POS for as loong as you kan.This new structures is just a larg nerf.
mkint
#897 - 2016-11-20 16:02:45 UTC
So... lots of pages here, but does anybody actually *like* the whole EC thing? Because from what I can tell, at best it's a "damnit if we have to, I guess we'll do this terrible thing but we're not happy about it."

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Chani El'zrya
Beyond Frontier
Pandemic Horde
#898 - 2016-11-20 20:59:34 UTC
mkint wrote:
So... lots of pages here, but does anybody actually *like* the whole EC thing? Because from what I can tell, at best it's a "damnit if we have to, I guess we'll do this terrible thing but we're not happy about it."


Yes. That's a good summary. I'll keep my POS till the end...
Not that i don't want to stop using it. It's just that it remains superior to ECs at the moment.
Glotis Muvila
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#899 - 2016-11-20 23:58:28 UTC
Chani El'zrya wrote:
mkint wrote:
So... lots of pages here, but does anybody actually *like* the whole EC thing? Because from what I can tell, at best it's a "damnit if we have to, I guess we'll do this terrible thing but we're not happy about it."


Yes. That's a good summary. I'll keep my POS till the end...
Not that i don't want to stop using it. It's just that it remains superior to ECs at the moment.


Yeah, me too... i can't get around the idea of building as a solo industrialist in High Sec... You can't pull it down fast enough.
Zeera Tomb-Raider
Vega Farscape
#900 - 2016-11-24 18:07:27 UTC
Jeronica wrote:
Mark Phoenixa wrote:
So, i haven't seen anyone address a number of concerns with the citadel system as a whole. Forgive me if i simply missed them being answered and please point me towards the relevant post.

First and most immediate concern is the number of service mod slots that is available on Raitaru. Its 3. That means that i wont be able to run all the industry mods and a reprocessing mod at the same time. The implications of that are pretty obvious for anyone who lives and mines in a remote system, like wormholes. You would need to swap mods or have a second structure in system. Very annoying.

Second concern kind of interlaces with the first one and was also partially dressed. Fuel costs. They were lowered recently to acceptable levels. However another change that may still be viable would have been the removal of startup costs for service modules. I mean, why are they there? To make it so that people cant turn on mods to do things and then turn them off for fuel saving? If that's the case, then its dumb. The only 2 modules that are exploitable like that are 'Clone bay' and a 'Reprocessing mod'. The other mods need to be turned on continuously to do anything considerable. And even exploitable mods are not that protected by that mechanic. You simply need to do your things once in 4 days to save fuel. I would not even have an issue with 3 mod slots on Raitaru if there were no startup costs. I could do my industry in batches, but now i cant simply because it costs too much.

Third concern is not an immediate one. I feel like there are too many structures coming. Different structures for different purposes. That are not limited by the number of moons in the system. If there will be more structures for other functions like reactions and those Drilling Platforms, whatever they do, we will have a logistical nightmare on our hands. These structure will have to be fueled, protected. You will have to remember what does what. And it will still cost to set them up. Also with these structures being fundamentally different like that they offer a lot less flexibility than POSes(as much as i dislike POSes for their UI). You simply can not have a single or even 2 structures that are specialized for your particular needs. And that may be solvable by cooperating with other people and using their structures. But that's not a solution for wormholes, because our system is our own and hardly a solution for k-space, because people like to have their own space home. New structures simply don't offer much flexibility.

This inst a separate concern, just separating thoughts as i have droned on quite a lot in a previous paragraph. What i would have done about the whole structure thing is:
1)Have them still orbit moons, we have to have some kind of restriction there. simply because these structures are affordable for anyone who can get battleships on regular basis.
2)Have them be customisable the same way T3 cruisers are. Simply make their role be chosen by player in accordance to his need by 'subsystems' and only further improved by 'rigs'. And if you make the subsystems interchangeable with maybe a few hour delay then we can have an engineering structure be transformed into something defensible, like a POS entering a 'death-star' mode. It still would remove the stupid safety mechanic of a POS being unanchorable in case of wardec AND give people a chance to defend it. Engineering complexes are paper structure and no one would want to put them up if they can be casually teared down by a single well fit battleship. The subsystem mechanic will also offer more interaction and gameplay, thats at least engaging, because you will be continuously choosing what you need NOW, as opposed to being set with what you buy. Because frankly, you CCP may have not created the service modules for ECs at all, since who the **** would fit anything else on this structure, geared towards 1 thing only - Engineering.

I'm done, i may have gotten carried away by the end of it. Please forgive me if i have gotten a little emotional there. No offence, i still like EVE. What i don't like is the needless structures that will be all over space, resembling a forgotten graveyard.


Sounds like you need to upgrade to an Azbel, if you want it to do more. The medium structures are designed by nature to be very specialized, and at <1bil cost you can't expect much more out of it. As far as defense, you shouldn't risk anything you're not able to lose. If you want to deploy structures you should be able to defend your assets. If they're not offering a purpose/revenue that warrants defense, then why are you anchoring it?

The Problem is the number of rigs.you need to many just to do 1 line of T2 manufactoring 6 rigs and then for refining ore/ice 2 ,so 8 rigs for 1 T2 manufactory line is crazy not sure howe many structures are needed for that set up or the cost to do it.but it rely destroying industry for solo players and smal corperations.And your rigth i will not set up engeneering complex iven when they remowe POS if things havent changed.With the investment needed for the same type of production i do to day with POS.and the new structures fule cost and awfull logestic setup with multipel engeneering complexs.I think manufactoring in NPC station will be a better choice then it been sins i started playing this game.This whole things are no dream but a nigthmare.