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Yes, introduced Nov 8th 2016, but not I don't think them as finished until Drilling platforms and reaction methods are introduced.

I'll bet you 1isk that they'll be as big a let down as the whole sequence of releases from Citadels onwards have been.

True, but that was a large-scale view. Would be nice to re-iterate them regarding ECs specifically.
For example, "Support and enhance existing gameplay" could be understood as "I have a POS now, so EC should do the same but better", which is in contradiction with "Encourage interaction between groups of players".

Well i don't ask that ECs to be as good as POS.
I just want them to be better than NPC station for all players.

You have a simplistic "want" which requires a complex answer but one that is undoubtedly they are, in terms of stats and numbers, better than an NPC station. They provide a better bonus to manufacturing to any given item over an NPC station when rigged for that activity. This is indisputable.

They do NOT provide this bonus without a choice to be made or without considerations.

The choices are complex with multiple "knobs" to be considered including size and the specific specializations. Those choices have implications related to cost and vulnerability. Whether a given player takes that risk or invests that cost is entirely up to them and whether those choices are good for a given industrialist depend greatly on their product and scale. They also have the added choice of where to place them including in systems without NPC stations to take advantage of other benefits related to job cost, taxes, etc. Additionally, ECs add in the option to use public facilities where others take on portions of this risk to provide you with portions of the benefits.

But you know all this, I'm certain.

The reality may be that when someone adds up their cost, risk and compare to their size, scale, and products that the ECs would not be better. That is a valid design choice in a game as complex as EVE. People here are mad because their own situation may result in ECs being a bad decision for them because there is now more complexity in the decision. Today, there are very few considerations because of the design of POSes flattens most of them into "POS better" and the risk/reward make them nearly a throwaway part of the discussion. In a game where we want decisions to matter, there should be little disagreement that ECs, like Citadels, introduce that into a part of EVE that currently has very little.

Because they provide choice in a sandbox game that is all about choice

Industry is a simple choice of profit. Your costs are determined by how you source your materials, what you make, and where you make it. POSes are one bit to be twiddled in that they provide reductions in material cost (and time) by incurring a given cost in terms of fuel.

They do NOT, however, provide any relevant choice when it comes to what POS to create or how to build it which is the gameplay aspect of structures. Any POS can do everything 100% as well as any other POS. Add in the fact that it has very cheap startup costs relative to industry capital and that, at least in high-sec, you can operate it with 100% safety due to wardec mechanics, you have a system which truly has very little choice or gameplay. It is just a "POS or no" calculation relative to profit. The choices of POSes relative to size, armaments, etc. are of very little consequence due to how the POS AI works, how timers work, etc. They have an illusion of gameplay but it is very shallow and of little concern to most players.

ECs have many choices to be made. The sizes, rigs, modules, public/private access, taxes, vulnerability windows, etc. etc. all provide actual gameplay and points of interaction with the rest of the game. Each choice carries a consequence. Whether this is good/bad for individual players is where the discussion comes here and where many are frustrated because they do not wish to accept the consequences to receive the benefit. I do not believe, however, that adding this gameplay to the industry system is bad for * the game * because it provide opportunity for interactions, disruptions and overall makes the entire process more interesting as a whole. People may not like that they can't get the max benefit with almost no risk anymore. I think that EVE is exactly about risk / reward and ECs make that possible where POSes do not.

I'm not sure to understand what i could not have taken into account.

If it is one or ten ECs in one system, it doesn't make any difference, the key descriptor is the system index which take the total number of player operating (which include even players using NPC station in the same system).

The breakeven point i was discussing with public EC is "how many player is required in a system until the ME bonus is not enough to compensate for the resultant higher system index? "
I took a scenario where you will use as an alternative an NPC station for one character producing and setting his system to 1.5 % (it's an overestimation).


Answer roughly 20 (roughly because it depends if those 20 characters use their 10 prod slots at 100% utilisation or less).

There was another thread where Fozzie was active on earlier today.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6681149#post6681149


It seems like right now, the concerns that's being brought up isn't on CCPs priority list. As most of the changes have yet to be even finalized and with EVE Vegas this weekend. We, not only won't get a reply to this. But, we'll probably never see alot of stuff until release. Or, as I'm expecting, things to be pushed back because of insufficient testing and bugs from insufficient testing...

There's only a couple of conclusions I can come to after reading the CCP party line garbage that you're spouting...

You're either trolling just because you can.

Or you know nothing about any kind of industrialism in the game, unlike the massive majority of posters who have genuine invested concerns about the changes and direction a couple of devs are driving the game.

Where are the Rigs for these EC's? - I would like to run some tests on sisi.