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Dev blog: Building Dreams: Introducing Engineering Complexes

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Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#441 - 2016-10-12 14:10:50 UTC
Obil Que wrote:

It's almost like the removal of the POS causing industry currently being done at them to enter the index system will actually cause the index system to work like CCP intends, pushing people further and further away from hubs and looking for opportunities to lower their own costs through strategic decisions regarding how and where to build.

It's going to create better opportunities for the groups who can afford to run their own Complexes, but for the small groups and the solo industrialists who can't afford the costs, we'll either be stuck using someone else's Complex and driving the index costs up in that system, or we'll be using NPC stations.

In addition to the increasing Index for those public Complexes, there's a very real risk that the public ones with the right rigs won't be anywhere near each other, either giving us the choice of working with our intermediate products in unbonused Complexes or having to move / ship our intermediates around constantly. There are "options," sure, but the choice between eating a dogshit sandwich and a catshit sandwich doesn't change the fact that it's a shitsandwich.

For the Newbies: The 8 Golden Rules - The Magic 14 Skills - Finding the Right Corp - EVE University Wiki
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#442 - 2016-10-12 14:16:19 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Obil Que wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Obil Que wrote:


It's almost like the removal of the POS causing industry currently being done at them to enter the index system will actually cause the index system to work like CCP intends, pushing people further and further away from hubs and looking for opportunities to lower their own costs through strategic decisions regarding how and where to build.


Industry performed at a POS is not (and never has been) exempt from system index costs, so if you kind of feel like everyone is looking at you as if you were speaking in tongues, that may be why.


Given how many people are up in arms about taking down their POSes, either we'll have plenty more industry entering the system in more localized ECs or NPC stations or the rest of us will just have less competition


...Industry performed at a POS is already not exempt from the index system. In fact, nothing is. 100% of industry is already in the "system", so how do you imagine we'll have plenty more entering the system?


Perhaps I should have phrased it as entering crowded systems. It isn't creating new industry but as people shut down POSes and move towards public ECs or NPC stations, it has an effect of collecting more industry in fewer systems thus raising indexes in those systems. Public ECs are likely to be closer to hubs. People may congregate closer to hubs if they aren't operating their POSes. All of this pushes more industry into fewer places ultimately raising the costs of those places putting pressure on people to again spread out.
Babbet Bunny
#443 - 2016-10-12 15:54:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Babbet Bunny
Vald Tegor wrote:
Babbet Bunny wrote:

And only 1% faster if you have the T2 rig.

Can you elaborate on this?
An Azbel gets a base 10% reduction to build and research times. A high sec T2 rig gives a further 28.8% build time reduction. The hull itself increases the rig by 25% to a 36% reduction.

That is a net build time of 57.6% of base, or a 42.4% reduction.

I don't have a high sec station on hand to compare, but null outposts only get a 30% bonus. That's a hell of a lot more than 1% faster. The job also only costs 96.4% of the materials in said Azbel.


Currently a Hyasoda lab has 35% reduction to research not including skills and I did forget the additional hull bonus.
So 7.4% faster for 3 times the fuel and 10 times the structure cost.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#444 - 2016-10-12 16:22:26 UTC
Lady Aesir wrote:
How about Banning anyone on the CSM or there friends who use insider knowledge to by the market supplies as they appear to have done here unless your leaking the information to your buddies.

Marines and Janitors!!!!


There is no way CCP can track this if anyone is even half way smart.

I think we just have to view the csm as a group that gets to capitalize on this information that the rest of the players don't get.

Aryth is member of the CSM. He made it clear he would use this information to help his coalition before he was even elected:

"What happens when you put the long term planner on the CSM and seeing the long term plans. Good things for us that's what."

https://www.themittani.com/news/csm-voting-imperium-candidate-slate

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming
Tactical Narcotics Team
#445 - 2016-10-12 18:54:06 UTC
Well it appears CCP killing gambling has overshadowed them trying to kill industry.
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#446 - 2016-10-12 19:21:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Vald Tegor
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Now do the same with oh, a Catalyst BPO. Or how about T1 DCU's. Picking an expensive item (If admittedly not one of the most expensive) then saying you should be building with all of your lines on said expensive item is not a good benchmark.And remind me how many lines you can get on a single character. Running a stable of 10 alts should not be considered standard ever, nor required and is in fact indicative of terrible industry mechanics

Sure

DCU 10/20. 0.05 Cost Index
Station: 176 runs. 1,616,043 ISK in input per line per 24 hours. Profit of 142,000 ISK per hour per 10 lines.
POS: 235 runs. 2,114,606 ISK in input per line per 24 hours. Profit of 190,000 ISK per hour per 10 lines.
Is that better?

Are you going to invest in putting up a small tower and pay 200,000 isk per hour in fuel to build these? On 10 lines earning an additional 50,000 isk per hour? Why does your operation require it's own structure? You need 40 lines just to break even on fuel costs, which exceeds a single account.

A single character with Advanced mass production 4 - a relatively short training time - has 10 lines. That's an easy 30 lines per account. Can you call yourself a professional builder requiring your own factory with less than that? I currently fall more into the tinkering category, my blueprints and lines are largely unutilized. If I was to actually start producing, I would have over 200 lines at my disposal - on accounts that already pay their own keep in other ways.

You may be small scale and solo. You may also not actually be an industrialist.

EDIT:
To take this a step further:
T2 Rigged public Raitaru. 2.07% index. 1% tax rate.
290 runs, 2,566,924 ISK Material cost, profit of 236,000 ISK per line per day.

This is nearly double of station production, at significantly higher index. Your taxes paid are 395.65 ISK per line per day. Even a 10% tax rate puts you at 3,956.50 ISK in taxes, per line per day. That's 5 lines running all day at the cost of ONE fuel block.

Is this really a bad thing for the small solo guy?
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#447 - 2016-10-12 19:56:15 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
HaubPlan1 Wads wrote:
HI all
Our corp has a small Faction POS that runs on 8 Fuels blocks/hour.
It does invention, ME, TE, and manufacturing of Teck II modules.

With this new system, 60 blocks/hr will be needed to do the same thing. Is that right?

If so.. it's not helping the small corps with reducing costs.

I would sure like to see an example of a small setup and what it would cost to run per hour.

Thanks


With the new system you can lease your labs out to other capsuleers with no risk to your own jobs or materials. The EC will pay for itself if you can attract enough third party users to your facility. You should be able to reduce the capsuleer fees to zero for yourself and your friends, while still running the EC profitably.

The only way small corps will be punished is if they can not find enough allies to defend the EC during a wardec.


I do this an more in my WH tower ..... there are not many capsuleers around to attract
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#448 - 2016-10-12 20:24:03 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:
Vald Tegor wrote:

EC's are not the solution you are looking for. They are for people coprorations who turn over billions on a daily basis.

I can just see Obi Wan Kanobi waving his hand at the solo and small group industrialists going "These are not the space structures you are looking for. Move along."

Well...
There is lots of things in EVE you cannot do solo or in 'small group'. For many things you MUST BE part of bigger and stronger group. Looks at Keepstars. Do you think you could have it with your 'small group of players'? Lol

But for industry it is somehow should be different? Why? I think that is ok have reasons for people to group. Be it more complex stuff of higher profits.


With the exception of building an actual SuperCapital (parts) :
I can do any and all of the industry types provided by all sizes of the these Engineering Complexes at a single large faction tower. The cost of the fuel is covered by a single research lab anything else I online to make what I want or need does not have an upfront fuel cost.

Now it seems that I cannot be a solo or small corp player I have to be part of a group to do what I can ALREADY DO at a tower.

What you are saying about groups has some merit but forcing a tribal group mentality on a player though costs or forcing asset defense towards high player numbers..... Well that's like telling a stealth bomber pilot he can't fly through sov space unless he's in a fleet ... after all to be in sov space you really need to be in a group.
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#449 - 2016-10-12 21:28:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Vald Tegor
Babbet Bunny wrote:
Vald Tegor wrote:
Babbet Bunny wrote:

And only 1% faster if you have the T2 rig.

Can you elaborate on this?
An Azbel gets a base 10% reduction to build and research times. A high sec T2 rig gives a further 28.8% build time reduction. The hull itself increases the rig by 25% to a 36% reduction.

That is a net build time of 57.6% of base, or a 42.4% reduction.

I don't have a high sec station on hand to compare, but null outposts only get a 30% bonus. That's a hell of a lot more than 1% faster. The job also only costs 96.4% of the materials in said Azbel.


Currently a Hyasoda lab has 35% reduction to research not including skills and I did forget the additional hull bonus.
So 7.4% faster for 3 times the fuel and 10 times the structure cost.

Herein lies your problem. You are comparing the new fancy lab to your derelict factory from world war 2 that is scheduled for demolition in 6 months. Continuing to use your current lab is not an option. The comparison is your own EC vs public EC vs unbonused combat citadel vs NPC station.
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#450 - 2016-10-12 21:45:32 UTC
Iowa Banshee wrote:

I can do any and all of the industry types provided by all sizes of the these Engineering Complexes at a single large faction tower. The cost of the fuel is covered by a single research lab anything else I online to make what I want or need does not have an upfront fuel cost.

So what you are saying is that POS design was flawed from the ground up. It doesn't present meaningful long term commitments or choices. It is also excessively cheap to operate and profit from.

You are also saying that with rewriting POS code, the designers are not allowed to revisit these design concepts to make a more engaging system. That would force you to make choices you don't like, because there isn't a clear cut blanket best choice solution giving you everything you want. Which is maximum bonuses, with minimal risk, investment and upkeep cost.
Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming
Tactical Narcotics Team
#451 - 2016-10-12 22:51:33 UTC
Vald Tegor wrote:
Babbet Bunny wrote:
Vald Tegor wrote:
Babbet Bunny wrote:

And only 1% faster if you have the T2 rig.

Can you elaborate on this?
An Azbel gets a base 10% reduction to build and research times. A high sec T2 rig gives a further 28.8% build time reduction. The hull itself increases the rig by 25% to a 36% reduction.

That is a net build time of 57.6% of base, or a 42.4% reduction.

I don't have a high sec station on hand to compare, but null outposts only get a 30% bonus. That's a hell of a lot more than 1% faster. The job also only costs 96.4% of the materials in said Azbel.


Currently a Hyasoda lab has 35% reduction to research not including skills and I did forget the additional hull bonus.
So 7.4% faster for 3 times the fuel and 10 times the structure cost.

Herein lies your problem. You are comparing the new fancy lab to your derelict factory from world war 2 that is scheduled for demolition in 6 months. Continuing to use your current lab is not an option. The comparison is your own EC vs public EC vs unbonused combat citadel vs NPC station.


Just because the better option is going to go away soon doesn't make it non-viable while it can still be used. It just means you don't want to see people making the best decision they can make.
Pretentious Knob
Silhouette Services
#452 - 2016-10-13 01:23:36 UTC
Centurax wrote:
I kinda wanted to start with sometime positive, so way to go art department, really good work on the models. P .



While its nice to provide a positive comment Im afraid that the engineering complexes look like a cut and paste of the citadels just changing a few bits. Please CCP have a movie night and watch some space si-fi movies. Be bold.

Please dont get me wrong. They look nice just same same but different. Look at new exhumers.
zluq zabaa
Inhumanum Legionis
#453 - 2016-10-13 02:06:10 UTC
1. I was really shocked after seeing the fuel costs, but instead of just stating that, I have a solution:

Make the Service Modules use a much lower base fuel cost and give the option to upgrade for more concurrent jobs. For instance:

Standup Manufacturing Plant I:
* Base fuel: 5 blocks/hr (10 jobs included)
* 20 additional concurrent jobs: 10 blocks/hr
* 50 additional concurrent jobs: 20 blocks/hr
* 100 additional concurrent jobs (or flatrate?): 30 blocks/hr

This would make the EC viable as a Just-for-Fun industrialist venture, while still providing for the big industrialist and even the possible public ECs. It does support group ventures and massive production a bit more than it does the solo guy, while not excluding the latter altogether from industy.

2. Problem with trust in possible Public ECs
When producing/researching in a POS, everyone who has material there needs to trust the whole corp. With ECs you only need to trust the owner. They might not be able to steal from you, but they can surely lock you out and thereby manipulate production or just make your life hard. To solve this trust issue:

Make it possible to rent your space in an EC.
Pretty simple really: give owners the option to negotiate a rent contract with anyone. A fixed expiry date and renewal option from both sides a tad before expiration. Gives owners of public ECs a bit more income in form of rent (similar to corp offices in NPC stations) in exchange for safety for users. (Safety from being bend over by the owner).

ACESsiggy
Deaths Consortium
#454 - 2016-10-13 02:28:59 UTC
I Just want to say thanks to the 1 percent of eve that will build these structures giving industry bonuses to corpmates lol

“The open-minded see the truth in different things: the narrow-minded see only the differences.”
Bussan
Kabukicho
#455 - 2016-10-13 03:02:21 UTC
I was waiting for this expansion for such a long time, that I really feel disappointed about these new changes... the citadels release itself was ok, but not as great as I expected, and these new structures are way worse than I thought.
Not everything is wrong or bad, of course... and the general idea is interesting. But there are too many problems and weird mechanics in my opinion. The way it is now, I guess most of the people will keep using their POS till they can, because in general they are better and less complicated (a pos? really?).
Of course when POSes will go away, people will adapt, as we always did... but changing because we HAVE TO, not because we want to, is not that good.

Of course it's impossible to make everybody happy, and there will always be people just telling others to adapt or leave. Or that that's the way the game should be! Yeah, maybe for them... maybe others have a different view of this game, and a different playstyle, and are not really happy to be forced to change.
I guess many will just leave, or stop doing indy. Some will enjoy the new system. The others will adapt, but maybe won't enjoy it much (who likes to be forced in a different playstyle?)

About some of the problems I've found so far (probably most of them have already been discussed in other posts):

- Fuel costs:
even with the hull bonus, it's still too high, and you cannot turn it on/off as you please because the initial cost to put online the module is too high. Many people will have to use more than one EC to have a similar functionality to his previous POS, so the fuel costs will become huge.

- Too many rigs:
it's nice to have choices, but in this case you just make it too much complex without a real return in fun or challenge. Many of the M rigs will never be used. And you force people to decide once what kind of small part of industry a player have to focus, and then he can never change it.
Now we can (have to, in some degree) do some market research to decide what to build, when or where... and that is part of the fun too. The people that can adapt better and faster to the market fluctuation will make the most out of his production. Forcing the EC to specialize will make it not impossible to adapt (you can craft anything you want, just without bonus), but hardly competitive compared to the people that had the luck to choose the rigs for those products.
Moreover you hit hard the small groups or solo... and give a big advantage to big null corps, that will use the more generic XL rigs.
A solution? maybe make the rigs swappable, or change the bonus they give, to more generic ones.

- EC and indexes... yeah...
not long ago you tried to make industry more nomadic, or at least dynamic, with the indexes. Before people was doing most of indy in the same systems, close to hubs. Now it changed, because lower indexes have a quite big impact in the costs.
But of course, this way industrialists are not happy to share the same system with others, because it would rise the indexes at a faster pace.
On the other side, now you introduce a new structure that is not dynamic at all. Once you decide where to put your EC you will likely never change place.
1st because it takes ages to put it offline, 2nd because nobody wanna loose those super expensive rigs.
Solutions? hard to say... maybe the swappable rigs and a one-day offline timer would help.
Or remove the indexes, but you will see all the industrialists back in the usual few systems near jita/amarr.

- Rorqual and EC... well...
you changed the Rorq and most of mechanics related to it... made it THE industrial ship, but made it impossible for it to interact with most of the Industrial structures... kinda weird :)

- EC and citadels:
ok, you are releasing some new structures that will replace POS and Outpost. That's cool.
But before we had all the functionalities in one place (at least the ones we wanted to add), while now they have to be scattered around the system. I think you are missing a nice chance here.
Structures are no more tied to moons, but still you cannot put them too close one to another... I don't see the reason why.
Why don't let the same corp/person deploying the structures, to be able to put them reasonably close to each other?
Different owners will have the same restrictions we have now, but the same owner should be able to put them closer and somehow "link" them.
For example, having an EC near a Citadel of the same owner, will make them sharing the same vulnerable window, and the presence of the citadel will make the EC invul till the citadel itself is destroyed.
At the moment both EC and citadel have more or less the same functionalities, just some different bonuses or stats.
So why don't use the Citadel for what is meant to be? Assets protection. The EC is an asset too.
But if we cannot link them, we will just have to put our assets (bpo, materials) in the EC. No need for citadels.
This way it will be up to the player/corp to decide if they prefer to just have an EC and defend it as it is (cheaper), or deploy a citadel near it for improved defense (more expensive). Yeah, the "pro" hisec "pvpers" will probably whine about it, because it will make harder to destroy some EC, but I think this would make the game more interesting, and open more choices to the player.
Plus, honestly having to fly around the system to work on different ECs is boring. Actually "linked" structures should
have a "linked" or common hangar to move the stuff around without having to haul it around (like it happens in POS or stations now..)
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#456 - 2016-10-13 04:55:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Vald Tegor
Urziel99 wrote:

Just because the better option is going to go away soon doesn't make it non-viable while it can still be used. It just means you don't want to see people making the best decision they can make.

I have no personal interest in people adapting early or not. But "It's not as op as my stick, I'll just stick with my stick" doesn't exactly help us discuss the future of industry does it?

There are people with massive operations that may find it favorable to adapt early. Maybe. This is kind of the important part to go over. Will they? Will they allow others access? Or are the rest relying on people running a for profit factory they don't build at?

There are a lot of small time guys. It's pretty obvious they are not supposed to build one of their own. They are supposed to use someone elses. There won't exactly be many viable choices for them to move to on November 10th. They will obviously stay with their current setup. But what about January 10th? March? See post #446. Will they take down their tower and use a public facility because it makes sense, not because they are forced to?

zluq zabaa wrote:
1. I was really shocked after seeing the fuel costs, but instead of just stating that, I have a solution:

Make the Service Modules use a much lower base fuel cost and give the option to upgrade for more concurrent jobs. For instance:

Standup Manufacturing Plant I:
* Base fuel: 5 blocks/hr (10 jobs included)
* 20 additional concurrent jobs: 10 blocks/hr
* 50 additional concurrent jobs: 20 blocks/hr
* 100 additional concurrent jobs (or flatrate?): 30 blocks/hr

This would make the EC viable as a Just-for-Fun industrialist venture, while still providing for the big industrialist and even the possible public ECs. It does support group ventures and massive production a bit more than it does the solo guy, while not excluding the latter altogether from industy.

Why would ANYONE want this? You get INFINITE lines for 15 blocks an hour. Waiting for a manufacturing line to become available in a facility is dead and buried. It was a terrible mechanic. Why do you need to build your own factory when you can't keep it producing to the capacity of a single character, let alone a single account? Why would you WANT to?
EDIT: If you want to do it just because, you can! And unlike your tower, you can easily rent it for use by others paying the fuel cost and more in taxes!

As far as security, you're not likely to lose access unless you do something to damage your relations with the owner of the facility. It might get destroyed, but if you manage relatively short jobs you can keep that risk to a minimum with little effort compared to checking on your own tower all the time.

There is also a step in between a personal and a public one. You can make friends with a limited access facility owner. Either way, nearly doubling your income over stations will take a bit of risk.

Another step in-between, is a mixed approach. If your production involves different items, or multiple steps. You may build one of your own for a portion of your activity and build other parts without the appropriate rigs, or use someone else's facility for that. This is where teaming up can become a thing. You build one, I build the other next door, we give each other a tax break.

Which leads to how granular the rigs are. This actually ties into the cost index. It's not overly simple for one person to build a facility network in a single system that can produce anything and everything. This will lead to a different kind of distributions, where certain systems will have facilities that cater to a particular kind of manufacturing. This will distribute the manufacturing jobs. So rather than one person spiking the index of a system by 3% from a variety of jobs, their contribution to the index will spread over a constellation. Even if you build the EC's yourself, you will not want to put them in the same system. This also means allowing others to use yours will be a less significant hit to you. Even if it increases your own install costs, as long as that added cost is lower than the taxes coming in, who cares?

This distribution also leaves more room for you to contract out your hauling. You couldn't exactly courier contract the materials to your tower, or products to a hub. If you still want to move your own, you may have spare room in your cargo. Others using the same facility may need things moved to and from the same place as yours.
Arrakis Askiras
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#457 - 2016-10-13 08:38:34 UTC
If this has been asked before please disregard:

I'm missing the Large rigs that provide ME/TE bonuses for standard capital ships. Is this an oversight or deliberate? If it's deliberate do Capitals (and Supercapitals) profit from the XL ship rig or not?
Kinizsi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#458 - 2016-10-13 08:59:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Kinizsi
CCP Phantom wrote:
With the huge expansion EVE: Ascension arriving on Nov 8, we will see the introduction of the eagerly awaited new Engineering Complexes.

We will get a new set of service modules that will expand research and manufacturing support to the entire line of Upwell structures. These service modules will be fully compatible with existing Citadel structures. Simultaneously, Upwell will be releasing a new set of Engineering Complex structures which are bonused for optimal performance with these service modules.

All details are now available in the new blog Building Dreams: Introducing Engineering Complexes



One BIG QUESTION, what affects all:

DOES THE INDUSTRY JOBS PAUSE WHEN THE EC GET REINFORCED?


IF the answer is NO, there will be no reason to attack any M-L Engineering Complex, cause all industry jobs would finish way before the enemy can reinforce again, and finally kill the EC.

So there will be no industry job loot, no real motivation, and all stuff would be secured by asset safety mechanism. = NO CONTENT, no reason to kill those EC's.

Only XL EC can drop loot that way, from the super constructions, pretty much nothing else. This wouldn't be Good at all, so please CCP like it's with POS's PAUSE ALL manufacturing jobs, when the EC is reinforced.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#459 - 2016-10-13 09:43:42 UTC
Bussan wrote:
(wall of text)
a new structure that is not dynamic at all. Once you decide where to put your EC you will likely never change place.

Ever heard of real estate market? Sell your EC and go dynamic, ballistic a w/e.
The new structure bring the new rules. Dont measure it with you old knowledge, re-evaluate everything you know about industry. Reinvent it for yourself. Remember when you first started to play EVE? Was exciting, right? Now you are given a chance to make your "first time" again, dont miss it out.

Bussan wrote:
- Rorqual and EC... well...
you changed the Rorq and most of mechanics related to it... made it THE industrial ship, but made it impossible for it to interact with most of the Industrial structures... kinda weird :)

With that I agree. Rorqual must be allowed to dock in a large EC.
Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming
Tactical Narcotics Team
#460 - 2016-10-13 09:46:45 UTC
Vald Tegor wrote:
Urziel99 wrote:

Just because the better option is going to go away soon doesn't make it non-viable while it can still be used. It just means you don't want to see people making the best decision they can make.

I have no personal interest in people adapting early or not. But "It's not as op as my stick, I'll just stick with my stick" doesn't exactly help us discuss the future of industry does it?

There are people with massive operations that may find it favorable to adapt early. Maybe. This is kind of the important part to go over. Will they? Will they allow others access? Or are the rest relying on people running a for profit factory they don't build at?

There are a lot of small time guys. It's pretty obvious they are not supposed to build one of their own. They are supposed to use someone elses. There won't exactly be many viable choices for them to move to on November 10th. They will obviously stay with their current setup. But what about January 10th? March? See post #446. Will they take down their tower and use a public facility because it makes sense, not because they are forced to?


The future of Industry for anyone not in a bog bloc is pretty obvious. NPC Stations. Lose bonuses but have no over head and no exorbitant fuel cost as well as asset invulnerability. There, Discussion over. GG